fish farm siting criteria & politics

[handee]

quote:Originally posted by agentaqua

Claire's assertion that: "sockeye migrating past the Discovery Islands are much larger than the threshold risk." is complete bunk</u> - NO salmon (including adults) are "much larger than the threshold risk".

We went over (in detail) how to assess that risk all through this thread, but that risk depends upon the size (weight) of the host fish, and the number of motile lice on that fish.

In fact, Johnson, Blaylock, Elphick, and Hyatt found that in 1990, huge numbers of returning adult sockeye salmon were killed by sea lice and the associated lesions due to delays in getting-up the Sproat River in Alberni Inlet.

Here's the citation, and the abstract:

Can. J. Fish. Aquat. Sci. 53(12): 2888–2897 (1996) S.C. Johnson, R.B. Blaylock, J. Elphick, and K.D. Hyatt. Disease induced by the sea louse ((Lepeophteirus salmonis)) (Copepoda: Caligidae) in wild sockeye salmon (Oncorhynchus nerka) stocks of Alberni Inlet, British Columbia

Abstract: The occurrence of the marine ectoparasitic copepod Lepeophtheirus salmonis and the prevalence of lesions caused
by its feeding activities were monitored on sockeye salmon (Oncorhynchus nerka) adults returning to the Sproat and Stamp
rivers through Alberni Inlet, British Columbia, in 1990 and 1992#150;1993. All sockeye examined were infected with L. salmonis
and had higher intensities of infection than previously reported. The presence of high numbers of early developmental stages
of L. salmonis suggests a high rate of infection for sockeye in coastal waters. Lesions attributable to L. salmonis ranged from
minor skin discoloration to large open lesions that exposed the musculature. In 1990, when escapement into these river
systems was delayed, sockeye holding in the inlet developed severe lesions and suffered high mortalities. High percentages of
fish with open lesions entered both river systems in 1990, but few fish with open lesions were observed on the spawning
grounds, suggesting additional prespawning mortality. In 1992 and 1993, when escapement patterns were more normal than in
1990, the severity of lesions owing to L. salmonis was reduced and no mortalities were observed. Throughout the study, fish
in the Sproat River escapement had more severe lesions than those in the Stamp River escapement.

Only a complete idiot would have made the statement Backman did about sockeye juvies being past the size that lice can damage them, as well as his other assertion that there is: "scant evidence that sea lice can cause population level declines of salmon".

silly agent, you got all confused again about cause and effect. you always had trouble with correlation vs causation, but this one too seems to cause you trouble.

ok was it the lice killing the salmon or were the high lice numbers a symptom of crowding, high salinity, high density, low DO, stress etc? When you see a moribund fish with lice on it, did the lice cause the morbidity or did the lice attach as a result of the fish's decline in health?

Well we dont have to guess. It is obviously the latter. Fron Simon Jone's we KNOW that the most vulnerable salmon, pinks under 0.3 grams, if healthy, in labs, can only succumb to death by sea lice if exposed to mega doses of sea lice at concentrations several magnitudes of order above any levels found in nature.

Phew, one less thing to worry about. The sea lice on the Sproat and Stamp salmon did not CAUSE the adult fish to die, they flourished on the fish BECAUSE the fish were dying. They were dying BECAUSEthey were close to spawning and there was no access to freshwater due to lack of rain.

Wet sidewalks do NOT cause it to rain.

 

[Gunsmith]

handee I am a NIMBY not in my backyard.Go back to norway.

 

[chris73]

You're too dumb to say moo, handee. But I give you that; your last few posts were very amusing, as usual

 

[handee]

quote:Originally posted by chris73

You're too dumb to say moo, handee. But I give you that; your last few posts were very amusing, as usual

good one Chris, well struck. if all else fails call your opponent "dumb".

since you are smart, can you tell me how sea lice managed to leave millions of tiny pink and chum unscathed again this cohort yet knocked the bejeezus out of Fraser River sockeye that were over 50x bigger (20 grams vs 0.3) by the time they got within 10 miles of their first fish farm?

And how did those sockeye right next door to the salmon farms do so well this year in loughborough inlet compared to their brothers in the Fraser?

Since sea lice obviously caused the demise of the Fraser River stock, can you explain the coincidence that the Skeena River sockeye also got hit too? Was it climate change nailing the north stocks while sea lice "got" the south stocks?


just askin', maybe ask Dr. Neil Frazer for some advice. that member of Moron et al doesnt even need data , he can literally "see" fish farm impacts from his kayak.

save the wild eat farm salmon

 

[handee]

quote:Originally posted by Gunsmith

handee I am a NIMBY not in my backyard.Go back to norway.

actually it would be difficult to find a country that hasnt yet realized fish farming is the solution to wild fish woes. Just as carrot farming became necessary when hunting and gathering fell out of fashion.

BC is very unique, it needs people like me to get us out of the dark ages of spending 10's of millions of dollars trying to resucitate commercial hunting of a nearly extinct animal. commercial fishing doesnt work, salmon enhancement (ocean ranch fish farming) doesnt work, closed containment works but makes NO sense in a green economy. That leaves improving and expanding fish farming or excluding fish from our diets.

So, you are stuck with me. Get out of MY backyard and go back to the dark ages.(this comment is really not fair to the dark ages, man has been fish farming for 1000's of years)

 

[Gunsmith]

Well handee I see your point, you are like every other greedy business person. You are going to ruin whatever is needed to provide what you think mis necessary. Well have at it son the world is yours to ruin. No threats necessary you are your own worst enemy. Mankind has steamrolled over nature taking what was needed to fill his ever deep pockets. Don't worry about me, as there will be enough to satisfy my needs for what I want and when it comes time to pay the piper I will be long gone. I think that from your gall that you are still pretty young and you might still be around to see what you have contributed to. Good luck handee.

 

[Charlie]

quote:Originally posted by handee

quote:Originally posted by chris73

You're too dumb to say moo, handee. But I give you that; your last few posts were very amusing, as usual

good one Chris, well struck. if all else fails call your opponent "dumb".

since you are smart, can you tell me how sea lice managed to leave millions of tiny pink and chum unscathed again this cohort yet knocked the bejeezus out of Fraser River sockeye that were over 50x bigger (20 grams vs 0.3) by the time they got within 10 miles of their first fish farm?

And how did those sockeye right next door to the salmon farms do so well this year in loughborough inlet compared to their brothers in the Fraser?

Hello... this is kind of an interesting question and actually I can explain what you ask:

Fish farms are required to and do keep sea lice data, per site! And, from everything I am gathering, they keep very accurate records. What appears to be happening is a combined report is generated, per sub-zones, which is what is used in the “Fish Health” reports. According to the Fish Health Report, everything is well within tolerances? So, they say… I might have a different opinion. Read the reports and you will see my concerns: http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/ahc/fish_health/ The individual site data is not in any report, nor really discussed. Just a few comments if the sea lice count exceeds the “trigger” it is being “monitored” and treated as necessary… or words to that effect.

DFO Pacific Region Director Paul Sprout stated Fraser River Sockeye had a different species of louse than the farm salmon – but this is wrong and he should know this. Marine Harvest timed their treatments to protect the Pinks in Broughton. To protect both Pinks and Sockeye the farms would have to do back-to-back treatments as the Pinks and Chum migrate in April and May, while the Sockeye migrate later during June and July. I do not believe that happened.

There is and was so much “heat” concerning the Broughton… I believe all the focus was there and I do not think anyone was really watching or was concerned with (and/or forgot) what was happening in Campbell River? After you read the fish health reports take a look here: http://www.marineharvestcanada.com/farming_fish_health_sea_lice.php and again start reading. Now go to this site: http://www.marineharvestcanada.com/pdf/sea_lice/05_10_09_cyrus.pdf The upper chart tends to indicate everything is in tolerances, now page down and look at the 6-Jul-09and 27-Jul-09 count of “CALIGUS”, that would be 16.53 and 12.20 respectfully, (lice) per fish?, on an inventory of 507,792?. Treatment was Not given until 8-Aug-09. If I am reading this right? In addition, that is not counting all the lice floating around, not counted and right in the middle of the Fraser Sockeye out migration! How many Fraser Sockeye, do you think that migrated in July 2009, got through there without being “lethally” infested with sea lice or other diseases sea lice carry?

If you look -RIGHT IN THE FRASER, the Harrison sockeye did very well, the rest of the Fraser sockeye declined by 92%. What is the difference between the Harrison and other Fraser sockeye? A paper by DFO says they migrate out through Juan de Fuca, while the others are known to go north right through the fish farms at Campbell River.

Now concerning the George W. Bush comment... I would relate it more to the Richard M Nixon era! [:0]

Oh... forgot! If the above is not correct, why are the "fish farms" not providing the information requested, by myself et al? [:0][:0]

 

[Charlie]

WOW! I Posted this, 10/18/2009 @ 12:01:45
And still "No Reply" Is it taking that long to find some "minute" detail? [:0][:0]

And... after you do find that minute issue... I still am asking, "if there is nothing to hide", why isn't the "fish farms" providing the sea lice and disease data information that I and others have requested? What are YOU hiding?

Speaking of Bush & Nixon... here is a quote for you"
“Whether ours shall continue to be a government of laws and not of men is now before Congress and ultimately the American people.” - Special Prosecutor Archibald Cox - after his firing, Oct 20 1973.

 

[chris73]

And now imagine that handee's intelligence is that of an average fish farm employee! Now that IS scary! How do you expect him to read this all, Charlie? And on top understand it too? No chance! Now you know why it was very simple and cheap for the Norwegians to brainwash those few BC souls they employ - there was not a lot to wash!!!

 

[agentaqua]

Handee, as far as I can understand, either you:

1/ have a short and limited memory, and/or
2/ never read my past postings (and Cuttlefish’s) because they disagreed with the outcome of your already predetermined opinions, or
3/ you did read my past postings but instead wish to beat a dead horse in the hopes of BS’ing novice readers to this thread, and/or
4/ you have no real interest in finding truth, but are on this forum only to indulge your ego, because you HAVE TO be right, no matter what the truth is.

Only you know for sure what the reasons are - that you live in a state of denial and such utter immaturity.

On your assumption that the “greatest pink run ever that occurred the year BEFORE, and likely caused, through spawning ground disruption, the so-called collapse”; as well as your assumptions re: pink escapement in the Broughtons were thoroughly discussed (and debunked) by both agentaqua and cuttlefish at:

http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8847&whichpage=32

I encourage everyone on this forum who has not yet read this thread in its entirety and (massive) length to at least read this page.

Agentaqua’s 12:30:04 11/07/2008 analysis of density-dependent capacity of the spawning channel is informative in assessing the so-called “spawning ground disruption”, while Agentaqua’s post of 04/22/2008 : 13:09:54 on http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8847&whichpage=13 is also informative, and states:

“As an example, 85% of the 2005 Broughton return was from the artifically-enhanced Glendale, and a further 12% was from artifically-enhanced Kakweiken - so that 97% of the total run size came from these 2 artifically-enhanced rivers. Look at:”

http://www.farmedanddangerous.org/?action=d7_article_viewer_get_first_file&Join_ID=99075

 

[Charlie]

Me...I am "still" just waiting for a reply on why I can't get the indiviual numbers? Maybe we should play the "shell game"?

All i get is ignored and stuff like this:
Your message was deleted without being read on Monday, October 19, 2009 4:25:43 PM (GMT+01:00) Amsterdam, Berlin, Bern, Rome, Stockholm, Vienna.
Final-recipient: RFC822; Stefania.Lombardi@marineharvest.com
Disposition: automatic-action/MDN-sent-automatically; deleted
X-M***ch-Correlation-Key: 0tQpmKGSmUCMePKwCm7QsA==
X-Display-Name: Lombardi, Stefania

I quess no one likes the questions I am asking!

Here's another quote for you"
Orlando, Fla, Nov. 17 -- Declaring that "I am not a crook," President Richard M Nixon.

 

[Rum Buddies]

looks like they are filtering your emails straight to trash, they probably aren't even seeing that you are sending mail.

You should try sending from another email account charlie - yours has obviously been compromised!

http://www.fishingvancouverisland.org - Win an 8-Hour WCVI Charter!

 

[Charlie]

Nah, I haven't got a response yet, but the last one sent wasn't deleted, at least before it was opened!

But, have to admit, I sent it to these just to make sure someone read it?
corporate@marineharvest.com ; orgen.christiansen@marineharvest.com ; therese.rod.holm@marineharvest.com ; enrik.heiberg@marineharvest.com ; ine.bakland@marineharvest.com ;

And, have this one ready to go, if I don't get a response:
Svein.Aaser@marineharvest.com &lt;Svein.Aaser@marineharvest.com&gt;

I am quite sure, at this moment someone at Marine Harvest, is either thinking or saying, “what should I do about this “psycho” yank, that has nothing to do with BC or us? Stating I am a “no body”, and is comparing me to one of their “sea lice” parasites? Wanna bet?

 

[cuttlefish]

Handee, you said;

quote:BC is very unique, it needs people like me to get us out of the dark ages of spending 10's of millions of dollars trying to resucitate commercial hunting of a nearly extinct animal.

BC is very unique indeed. It still has runs of wild salmon that are far from extinct and can be rebuilt to their former health.
If you consider spending money to augment the hours and years of volunteer care and sweat dedicated to rebuild a common property resource for future generations is a concept from the dark ages, than you have a strange understanding of history, a warped attitude toward value for money and a sad sense of the common good.

A quick history lesson will enlighten you to the facts that in medieval Europe, during the dark ages, fish weirs were used by the lords of the land to direct fish into nets for the benefit of the landlord. However in 1215 the King of England signed the Magna Carta recognizing certain rights and liberties for all the people of the land that still persist today. Among those rights and liberties was the removal of fish weirs and so by recognizing the fishery as a common property.

So in that sense, the concept of containing fish in nets for the profit of the individual is closer to the dark ages than is the concept of enhancing the common property for the benefit of all.

You also said;

quote:commercial fishing doesnt work, salmon enhancement (ocean ranch fish farming) doesnt work, closed containment works but makes NO sense in a green economy. That leaves improving and expanding fish farming or excluding fish from our diets.

So at least we agree on one thing; that closed containment works. I propose our time would be better spent by putting our heads together and figuring out how to make it make sense (or cents) in a green economy for the betterment of your industry and the common property resource instead of arguing about who is right or better or smarter.

 

[handee]

quote:

Oh... forgot! If the above is not correct, why are the "fish farms" not providing the information requested, by myself et al? [:0][:0]

Because the fish farms actually have a business to run. Giving out tons of production details to the general public would be stupid and unecessary. Just like you dont want your doctor giving out your name, weight and address along with your herpes status. Its totally unecessary ands serves no purpose. Suffice to say he is monitoring X cases of herpes and folowing his professional code accordingly.

The fish health status is monitored and regulated by veterinarians and the data submitted by the farms is groundtruthed by governemnt fish techs and vets. All of the comapnies have copperated with NGOs that agreed to be discrete, and they have cooperated with scientists who have used their data in peer reviewed papers.

There is no reason for them to hand over huge amounts of production data (and without it the sea lice info would make little sense) to known liars like Moron et al who have but one goal: to eliminate fish farm companies, at the same time as giving it all to their competition.

Funny, true story: When Moron was advocating we use helicopters to lift outgoing smolts past the fish farms, she bitched and moaned to get DFO out to look at her insane idea. For some reason they actually went out to visit her. Their first stop was one of the salmon farms she wanted to bypass. So DFO and the fish farmers and a couple other govt officials started seining up farm fish to count the lice. NO LICE. Big clean fish. Moron wouldn't even get out of the boat to take a look. THESE were the loused up farm fish she was going to kill all her smolts by transporting them around the farm! then she took the group to Echo bay and showed them dying smolts with lice on them. It was pointed out that it wasnt lice killing the fish...they were starving for oxygen!!!open the bags cried the fish farmers, give them some fresh water!

These are not the kind of people you hand over sensitive, propriety production data to. You give it to discrete objective professionals who understand that you are running a business and are interetsed in the truth. You also give it to your veterinarian who is required by law to report certain disease and treat at certain levels of infection. You also give it to government verterinarians who groundtruth your results and then put it in a data base where all the pertinent info is there, and the production data of the company is protected from its enemies, wingnuts like Morton et al and competitors. everybody wins.

Look at Morton herself. After her ridiculed 2001 paper she refused to release her raw data. Let others look at your frozen fish and ID the lice on them was the call, because it looks liek you used the wrong ID key. Many are certain she didnt just use the wrong ID key, she just plain old lied. She kept coming up with one story after another of why she wouldnt release her data. Several years of DFO surveys later and still no results even close to hers have been gathered. Iam pretty sure she fudged it, but we'll never know cuz she wouldnt let anyone look in her deep freeze. but she has suffered enough humiliation as is for that paper- (DIPNET SAMPLING HAH!! and wow, the older the fish the more lice it carries- who knew!!??)- no need to rub it in i guess.

Sorry I didnt get back to you sooner, I have this damn thing called a job that gets in the way.

 

[handee]

quote:Originally posted by agentaqua

Handee, as far as I can understand, either you:

1/ have a short and limited memory, and/or
2/ never read my past postings (and Cuttlefish’s) because they disagreed with the outcome of your already predetermined opinions, or
3/ you did read my past postings but instead wish to beat a dead horse in the hopes of BS’ing novice readers to this thread, and/or
4/ you have no real interest in finding truth, but are on this forum only to indulge your ego, because you HAVE TO be right, no matter what the truth is.

AA,

I just reread your posts on page 32 of this forum. I remember the drivel well.

You must feel really silly reviewing it yourself, since all the dire predictions made (by non fihery scientists, students and advocates) have failed to materialize, and all the realistic, science -based, optimistic ones by corrupt evil DFO scientists have been come true and even been surpassed.

The Broughton had the biggest pink runs in history in 2000. Thatis a likely cause for the subsequent poor returns. Its ridiculous to exclude the Glendale in this analysis. As predicted by DFO fisheries after a huge run there follows several years of down returns. This is classic boom and bust. After several years the stocks rebuild and have another boom year. of course variables such as fishing pressure, landslides, water temp etc all play in to fuzz up the data. Thats what the return data shows, that was the prediction that was made that came true.

Mortons claim back in 2004 was that "its too late now we have to get all the farms out of here or the pinks will go extinct (she meant extant)" did not happen, not even close. 2005 was a good year and 2009 was a really, really good year.

So your little thesis about the condition of the spawning channel is complete bunk. The fish returns are counted whether or not the spawing channel is in good or poor condition. If you belive the sea lice theory then the damage has been done before they head upstream. This was pointed out by Brooks and Jones and published, and the Krokosek sidestep of this fact that only appeared as a rebuttal to true belivers showed he had no defense, other than to mutter something about the results dont change much (they changed alot) if you include or exclude Glendale data. he stil didnt expalin why the hell you wouldnt include the biggest damn river in the system contributing 80% of the fish to the system. Instead he focussed on tiny streams with salmon returns of 50 fish. When it dropped to 25 he cried "A 50% DROP!!!". the results would be way too boring with Glendale included.

If only 2 people die from lightening strikes in Canada per year , and then one year 4 people die, we have "A 100% INCREASE IN DEATH BY LIGHTENING". Statistically true, but no cause for alarm...unless you are an alarmist/ liar.

But it is encouraging that you are looking at outside factors contributing to overall stock health. In the fury of the salmon farm debate you usually forget there is more than one variable contributing to wild salmon survival. good for you, our growing up right before my eyes !

 

[handee]

i read a post on here that was really cute, trying to explain how the fraser siockeye losses could be blamed on the fish farms while other sockeye losses, well we could explain those ones somehow else.

I mean talk about butt backwards.

I got an idea why dont we look at all the variables that are known to harm salmon.

since we know sea lice (at any levels seen in nature) dont harm wild pacific salmon based on years of data and lab studies. lets focus on food source, climate change, fishing (legal and illegal), predators, sea temperatures, spawning ground condition etc.

now if those dont yield good case studies lets not go back to teh sea lice theory which holds no water.
rather if Skeena and Fraser river sockeye had really bad years and Columbia Sockeye and Sockeye right next to salmon farms had ok years what can we learn....

id say this : we know @#$%$% all so lets stop fishing, lets halt logging near rivers, halt development on rivers, restore habitat, control predators,stop the failed experiment of ocean ranching, hunt down poachers irregardless of race and only allow farm raised salmon into the market.

i think then we might get some results.

 

[rico]

Originally posted by handee

Suffice to say he is monitoring X cases of herpes and folowing his professional code accordingly.

 

[rico]

Originally posted by handee

Suffice to say he is monitoring X cases of herpes and folowing his professional code accordingly.

I like the analogy. Farmed fish are like Herpes!!

 

[sockeyefry]

Hey Charlie,

Are you sending your e mails to Marine Harvest CANADA?

Just because you don't receive an answer does not mean there is a big conspiracy afoot, unless of course you want to give the allusion of such.