fish farm siting criteria & politics
- Thread starter agentaqua
- Start date
H
handee
Guest
quote:Originally posted by cuttlefish
Handee said;
>>>>
- 1.
We went through all this earlier where I showed Morton was not the daughter of an American billionaire.
>>>> who's summary, Handee? Yours? When I got a copy of the Vivian Krause paper, there was no summary and no references included.
BC VIEWS: Usual suspects in salmon crisis
>>>> Hmmmm. I'm sure Agentaqua will do an adequate job responding to this, but I should point out that same op/ed didn't contain any mention of Agentaqua in the local paper I read.
>>>- 4.
Cuttle,
-yes it was a joke about Agent Aqua being named (ha ha)
-no you did not rebutt that Morton's Mom. Barbara Bubbard (mom), is a billionaire, that fact remains standing. You did point out I got her father wrong- you won a battle,i won the war.
-Im not saying ignore Fraser sockeye crash, Im saying INCLUDE the Skeena crash- for crying out loud. Just like Im saying when looking at pink return data dont skip the biggest years and the biggest runs on record - include it all. Context , perspective, is what Im calling for.
-go ahead and waste millions more on sea lice science and judicial reviews, but meanwhile why not focus on the clear, present, long established , obvious,totally reversible blatant threats to wild salmon? arrest illegal fishers, cull predators, and REHAB STREAMS by the bushel. Let's get Morton's mommy to pay for stream rehabs instead of paying to make her daughter famous like her.
-Vivian Krause's article was complete with links and references im sure your Charlie can dig it up.Im not a computer guru.
-Agent Aqua- you dont debate me because I defeat you every time with the bleeding obvious: wanna save wild salmon? stop killing them with clubs, hooks and destroyed spawning beds. DUH. Your complex theory of how Fraser river might somehow have been impacteded from the effects of salmon farms while millions of teensy tiny chums and pinks were spared sounds real sciency. Sort of like how Morton explained, every year, the pinks were doomed. she got it wrong, you got it wrong. you are a true believer, I base my opinions on evidence.Here's an example of an evidence-based theory: if we cant kill tiny little pinks in the lab with megadoses of sea lice unless they are under .3 grams then they cant kill big chunky 25 gram sockeye either! OBVIOUSLY!
Here's my logic: If the rivers are full of supposed extinct fish I stop looking at the results of the computer models and start looking at who got it right: DFO,Drs Jones, Neville, Cubitt, Beamish, Brooks, Butterworth, Saksida etc etc
Link your way out of that Charlie, Cuttle and AA. Judicial review!Bring in the clowns.[)]
Occams Razor my friends, occams Razor: "when you have two competing theories that have the same solution, the simpler one is the better."
One more time:
Again,someone please answer why there was no outcry from adopt-a-fry-Morton when the DFO opened the fishery on chums and pinks in the Broughton this year? Come on, why does she want to abolish open net pen farming and not commercial slaughter? What about the hungry bears !? Please answer.
You say i dont answer your questions, c'mon this isnt even the tough one about why the NGO's turn a blind eye to the Alaskan mega fish farm industry. I know you cant handle that one, its hard on you, but this one about the fishery in the Broughton should be easy. its right in your back yard where these species are on the brink of extinction (doncha know?) just like the peer reviewed Ford Meyers (desk-top) study told us.
Charlie
Well-Known Member
I could really care less about Alaska, BC fish farms, or Marine Harvest! But, there is a concerned about the survival of “all” salmon runs! Sorry, it appears “fish farms” are a significant part of that problem! Until all the facts are on the table we won’t know, will we?
Concerning your comments about the Fraser Sockeye, there are valid concerns which need to be answered? Don’t forget “sea lice” transmit diseases! I am sorry, but that is proven. The Fraser very well could have been “wiped out” by sea lice and sea lice transmitting diseases? It is a valid theory… and it is only a theory, as Marine Harvest refuses to dispute it - only gives it more validity!
Concerning your “Pink” and “Chum” comments, Marine Harvest used so much “SLICE” north of Campbell River (due to public pressure), I am surprised anything could survive in that area, as we know about SLICE, don’t we? If you don’t start “Googling”!
As far the Skeena Sockeye, maybe there isn’t a lot to talk about when it comes to the Skeena Sockeye… that is a “very” old story – with all the same players involved, is it not? Environment and logging has little effect, as that fishery is all about “Babine Lake”. Sure can’t blame fish farms, can we? Some diseases… sure why not! Predators brought up from warm currents, nope! They stay in the warmer waters. Food source - Can’t go there NOAA has already proven – nothing wrong with that! Global Warming isn’t killing off any of those Sockeye, as we know the lethal temperature is 24.4 degrees, but what it is doing, changing their migration further north to stay in the cooler waters. The Skeena had a higher than predicted return this year… want to know why, start reading! Just might have something to do with a new treaty? Here are some places you can start with; I think you will get the “big picture” once done?
http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/SCI/psarc/SSRs/Salmon/d6-10.pdf
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/csas/Csas/status/2003/SSR2003_047_e.pdf
http://www.watershed-watch.org/publications/files/SCBC_sockeye_review.pdf
http://www.canada.com/cityguides/princerupert/story.html?id=38b6509f-cc60-46c8-abf5-bb6b4f5963ac
http://www.cf.adfg.state.ak.us/geninfo/finfish/salmon/catchval/blusheet/08exvesl.php
BTW… if you think Alaska “salmon ranching” and BC “fish farms” are the same thing… You are totally wrong!
Ever wonder why – they don’t have a “sea lice” problem and BC fish farms do; start reading – that is an easy “Google”! Could be their timing of the release, creating NO problems with the out migration! Key word there – “release”! Plus, Alaska only allows indigenous species. Atlantics are “outlawed”, yep by law! The only Atlantics in their waters are the ones that have escaped from farm “sea pens” and migrated north! There are none that survived the BC and Washington planting attempts years ago.
Oh, you want to prove something… Prove Nixon was innocent! Unless, Marine Harvest releases the information, you stand a better chance in proving Nixon really was innocent than Marine Harvest "fish farms" are doing no harm!
I also believe I am done! This horse has been beat to death and I don't **** up ropes! Good luck!
cuttlefish
Well-Known Member
I thought this was a forum to inform and debate ideas. I didn't realize there was a war on. I read this forum to get informed and my posts are meant to keep the information sharing as accurate as possible, not to win a war. But that may be your intention which would help explain your need to continually attack people who have points of view different from yours. It may also explain why others now refuse to respond to you. Enough said there.
But, you wanted some answers to two questions. Here are my answers.
- Why was there no outcry from adopt-a-fry for pink openings(there were no chum openings) in the Broughton? I suggest you contact adopt-a-fry for the answer. I don't see a problem as long as it is well managed with vessel counts and CPUEs recorded to ensure harvest don't exceed the planned exploitation rate. With good pink returns, there should be opportunities for all harvesters after there are escapements surplus to spawning requirements.
- Why NGOs turn a blind eye to the Alaskan mega fishfarm industry? You should ask the NGOs if you are serious about getting the answer to your question. I can point you to some Alaska Fish and Game information if you're interested. (It's a web link so maybe you aren't interested.) http://www.cf.adfg.state.ak.us/geninfo/finfish/salmon/catchval/history/1970-2007s.php. I assume harvests are somewhat related to escapements as the Alaskan commercial salmon fishery has been certified as sustainable by the MSC after looking at all aspects of the management including the hatchery program. Salmon ranching (which is what I think you are referring to) started in 1975 and leveling off in 1987. In 2007, commercial salmon harvests, excluding the 40% (or 85.2 million piece) contribution from the program have improved. To me this indicates the program has not had a detrimental effect on non-program salmon stocks in Alaska. I also think that if the program has not had a detrimental effect on salmon stocks in Alaska, it is likely not negatively impacting BC salmon stocks.
NDP Is Right to Call for Sockeye Inquiry
http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2009/11/0...eadlines&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=021109
The catastrophe doesn't seem to concern Tories, Grits. In fact, they don't want to know.
By Rafe Mair, Today, TheTyee.ca
Sockeye Salmon
Facing a sea lice gauntlet, and maybe a dam.
*
Sockeye run implodes; sea lice blamed
*
Betrayed by Our Fisheries Minister
As BC's sockeye disaster unfolded, she flogged fish farms in Norway.
*
Federal NDP calls for emergency salmon summit
The NDP tread where the Conservatives and Liberals fear to go as NDP Fisheries Critic Peter Julian and MP hopeful Fin Donnelly call for an independent judicial inquiry into the collapse of the Fraser River sockeye.
It should happen. It must happen. And it won't happen.
On reason it won't is that Fisheries Minister Gail Shea wouldn't know a sockeye from a mud shark. Another is that the fish farmers contribute handsomely to Conservative and Liberal party funds. The third reason I'll share in a moment.
Bumbling detectives
The sockeye situation is ludicrous. We know they're gone but we don't know all the reasons. However, we do know one reason -- the migrating sockeye smolts (salmon babies) must run the gauntlet of the Broughton Archipelago fish farms, and the sea lice from those cages kill them. But fish farmers are contributors to the pockets of both governments. And the claims of independent scientists are ignored.
We also know that some smolts are eaten by escaped Atlantic salmon. What we don't know is whether there are other causes when the smolts are maturing on the high seas. Indeed, in spite of what government lackeys and lickspittles are saying, we don't even know if the high seas kill any appreciable amount. In blaming ocean predators and conditions, the lickspittles and company men reason that "because we don't believe that lice from farms and escaped Atlantic salmon cause very many, if any deaths, we assume that these deaths are from causes unknown." If police detectives reasoned like that, the jails would all be empty.
Flexible, affordable and responsive. Include The Tyee in your next promotional plan.
Moreover, the convenient "high seas" argument ignores the fact that pink, chum and sockeye from rivers not contaminated with fish farms, or in Alaska which bans fish farms, migrate to the same "high seas" and returned in abundant -- and in some cases record -- numbers.
Rules of science and law ignored
It must be noted that the Union of BC Indian Chiefs (UBCIC), First Nations Summit and the B.C. Assembly of First Nations resolutions all oppose fish farms. Moreover, in 2007 Marine Harvest's largest shareholder, billionaire John Fredriksen, while fishing on the famous River Alta, told a reporter from the Altaposten Newspaper, "I'm concerned about the future of wild salmon. Move salmon farms out of the path of wild salmon."
There are two related rules of science and law prevailing here. The science rule is the "precautionary principle" which states that if a policy might cause severe or irreversible harm to the public or to the environment, in the absence of a scientific consensus that the harm would not ensue, the burden of proof falls on those who advocate taking the action.
The legal rule is that he who alleges has the burden of proof.
In short, the onus of proving the lack of adverse environmental impact rests squarely on the fish farmers -- but, with thanks to former Liberal ministers like John Van Dongen, they have passed this onus onto the public. As a result, the task has fallen to courageous citizens like Alexandra Morton and a plethora of independent scientists who support her findings. The fish farmers have had a free ride throughout.
The media has been shamefully silent, with the occasional exception of Stephen Hume in the Vancouver Sun and the more frequent interventions of his brother Mark in the Globe and Mail. The last electronic media person to take on this issue was me -- and in 2005 I was fired. I believe it was because I fought against these environmental nightmares.
The dam truth
Here is the third reason nothing will be done.
When jurisdiction for fish farms was given back by the province to the feds by a recent court case, fish farmers were assured that it would be business as usual. In fact, Minister Gail Shea went to a huge conference of fish farmers in Norway and assured them that Canada wanted even more of them. The bottom line is that the federal government doesn't give a fiddler's fart about west coast fisheries and hasn't for decades. And there's a reason.
Since 1871, when B.C. joined Canada, the salmon fishery has been a gigantic political pain in the butt to the federal government. When I was the environment minister back at the beginning of the Christian Era, I studied the issue and found that year after year there were problems, and year after year the government fumbled them. A good example was some years ago when the Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) decided that there were too many boats chasing too few fish and started to buy back fish boats. A child could have seen that the remaining boats would increase their capacity -- they did -- and the problem remained.
All the while, there has been salvation looming on the horizon rising from the mists of time -- the proposed Moran Dam on the Fraser River north of Lytton. Here's what I wrote on The Tyee on April 24 of 2006: "[this] proposed dam (Moran) was all the rage with the post World War II Liberals, especially Defence Minister Andrew MacNaughton."
But it didn't stop there. Bruce Hutchison, in his otherwise marvelous book The Fraser, painted a paradise built with all that power. W.A.C. Bennett was all for the idea in 1967, but outdoors people made such a fuss about the concomitant loss of salmon that he backed off.
Fish in the path of 'progress'
The Department of Fisheries and Oceans was stripped of outspoken scientists back in 1986 when the two governments and Alcan agreed on the Kemano Completion project and DFO did what the politicians told them to do. That culture remains.
The only thing holding back this project is the migration of sockeye (mainly) that pass through the Fraser River past Lytton to northern spawning beds. A huge dam! Wouldn't it be wonderful! Power galore and no more of those damned salmon! If through a happy combination of fish farms and lack of care about habitat we can wipe out those salmon runs! Indeed, if we play our cards right, the only salmon left will be in wilderness rivers, left to satisfy wealthy fishermen on expensive fishing safaris. When that happy day comes, the DFO and the federal government will be rid of this millstone and there will be oodles of power to sell to California so that swimming pools can be kept warm!
Yes, give us a judicial inquiry
If the federal government cared at all about B.C. they would take on MP Peter Julian's suggestion. But it doesn't go far enough. There should be a judicial hearing into the Fraser sockeye collapse. I would suggest that the enquiry should be wider. However, we've learned that the wider the mandate, the more paid days for lawyers -- whose glacier-like pace when being paid per diem is notorious.
There are political considerations. If the NDP can combine the fish farm issue with the rape of rivers by the likes of General Electric, they could win seats that are usually Liberal or Conservative. The latter know that the NDP cannot form a government, but they could decide who holds power.
What a sad thing to contemplate. Neither the Liberal nor Conservative parties give a damn about B.C.'s fish or our rivers.
Why should they? In this country, if it isn't happening in Ontario or Quebec, it isn't happening. [Tyee]
Former Socred MLA and veteran radio and print journalist Rafe Mair writes a Monday column for The Tyee. He has also served as a spokesperson for Save Our Rivers.
http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2009/11/0...eadlines&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=021109
The catastrophe doesn't seem to concern Tories, Grits. In fact, they don't want to know.
By Rafe Mair, Today, TheTyee.ca
Sockeye Salmon
Facing a sea lice gauntlet, and maybe a dam.
*
Sockeye run implodes; sea lice blamed
*
Betrayed by Our Fisheries Minister
As BC's sockeye disaster unfolded, she flogged fish farms in Norway.
*
Federal NDP calls for emergency salmon summit
The NDP tread where the Conservatives and Liberals fear to go as NDP Fisheries Critic Peter Julian and MP hopeful Fin Donnelly call for an independent judicial inquiry into the collapse of the Fraser River sockeye.
It should happen. It must happen. And it won't happen.
On reason it won't is that Fisheries Minister Gail Shea wouldn't know a sockeye from a mud shark. Another is that the fish farmers contribute handsomely to Conservative and Liberal party funds. The third reason I'll share in a moment.
Bumbling detectives
The sockeye situation is ludicrous. We know they're gone but we don't know all the reasons. However, we do know one reason -- the migrating sockeye smolts (salmon babies) must run the gauntlet of the Broughton Archipelago fish farms, and the sea lice from those cages kill them. But fish farmers are contributors to the pockets of both governments. And the claims of independent scientists are ignored.
We also know that some smolts are eaten by escaped Atlantic salmon. What we don't know is whether there are other causes when the smolts are maturing on the high seas. Indeed, in spite of what government lackeys and lickspittles are saying, we don't even know if the high seas kill any appreciable amount. In blaming ocean predators and conditions, the lickspittles and company men reason that "because we don't believe that lice from farms and escaped Atlantic salmon cause very many, if any deaths, we assume that these deaths are from causes unknown." If police detectives reasoned like that, the jails would all be empty.
Flexible, affordable and responsive. Include The Tyee in your next promotional plan.
Moreover, the convenient "high seas" argument ignores the fact that pink, chum and sockeye from rivers not contaminated with fish farms, or in Alaska which bans fish farms, migrate to the same "high seas" and returned in abundant -- and in some cases record -- numbers.
Rules of science and law ignored
It must be noted that the Union of BC Indian Chiefs (UBCIC), First Nations Summit and the B.C. Assembly of First Nations resolutions all oppose fish farms. Moreover, in 2007 Marine Harvest's largest shareholder, billionaire John Fredriksen, while fishing on the famous River Alta, told a reporter from the Altaposten Newspaper, "I'm concerned about the future of wild salmon. Move salmon farms out of the path of wild salmon."
There are two related rules of science and law prevailing here. The science rule is the "precautionary principle" which states that if a policy might cause severe or irreversible harm to the public or to the environment, in the absence of a scientific consensus that the harm would not ensue, the burden of proof falls on those who advocate taking the action.
The legal rule is that he who alleges has the burden of proof.
In short, the onus of proving the lack of adverse environmental impact rests squarely on the fish farmers -- but, with thanks to former Liberal ministers like John Van Dongen, they have passed this onus onto the public. As a result, the task has fallen to courageous citizens like Alexandra Morton and a plethora of independent scientists who support her findings. The fish farmers have had a free ride throughout.
The media has been shamefully silent, with the occasional exception of Stephen Hume in the Vancouver Sun and the more frequent interventions of his brother Mark in the Globe and Mail. The last electronic media person to take on this issue was me -- and in 2005 I was fired. I believe it was because I fought against these environmental nightmares.
The dam truth
Here is the third reason nothing will be done.
When jurisdiction for fish farms was given back by the province to the feds by a recent court case, fish farmers were assured that it would be business as usual. In fact, Minister Gail Shea went to a huge conference of fish farmers in Norway and assured them that Canada wanted even more of them. The bottom line is that the federal government doesn't give a fiddler's fart about west coast fisheries and hasn't for decades. And there's a reason.
Since 1871, when B.C. joined Canada, the salmon fishery has been a gigantic political pain in the butt to the federal government. When I was the environment minister back at the beginning of the Christian Era, I studied the issue and found that year after year there were problems, and year after year the government fumbled them. A good example was some years ago when the Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) decided that there were too many boats chasing too few fish and started to buy back fish boats. A child could have seen that the remaining boats would increase their capacity -- they did -- and the problem remained.
All the while, there has been salvation looming on the horizon rising from the mists of time -- the proposed Moran Dam on the Fraser River north of Lytton. Here's what I wrote on The Tyee on April 24 of 2006: "[this] proposed dam (Moran) was all the rage with the post World War II Liberals, especially Defence Minister Andrew MacNaughton."
But it didn't stop there. Bruce Hutchison, in his otherwise marvelous book The Fraser, painted a paradise built with all that power. W.A.C. Bennett was all for the idea in 1967, but outdoors people made such a fuss about the concomitant loss of salmon that he backed off.
Fish in the path of 'progress'
The Department of Fisheries and Oceans was stripped of outspoken scientists back in 1986 when the two governments and Alcan agreed on the Kemano Completion project and DFO did what the politicians told them to do. That culture remains.
The only thing holding back this project is the migration of sockeye (mainly) that pass through the Fraser River past Lytton to northern spawning beds. A huge dam! Wouldn't it be wonderful! Power galore and no more of those damned salmon! If through a happy combination of fish farms and lack of care about habitat we can wipe out those salmon runs! Indeed, if we play our cards right, the only salmon left will be in wilderness rivers, left to satisfy wealthy fishermen on expensive fishing safaris. When that happy day comes, the DFO and the federal government will be rid of this millstone and there will be oodles of power to sell to California so that swimming pools can be kept warm!
Yes, give us a judicial inquiry
If the federal government cared at all about B.C. they would take on MP Peter Julian's suggestion. But it doesn't go far enough. There should be a judicial hearing into the Fraser sockeye collapse. I would suggest that the enquiry should be wider. However, we've learned that the wider the mandate, the more paid days for lawyers -- whose glacier-like pace when being paid per diem is notorious.
There are political considerations. If the NDP can combine the fish farm issue with the rape of rivers by the likes of General Electric, they could win seats that are usually Liberal or Conservative. The latter know that the NDP cannot form a government, but they could decide who holds power.
What a sad thing to contemplate. Neither the Liberal nor Conservative parties give a damn about B.C.'s fish or our rivers.
Why should they? In this country, if it isn't happening in Ontario or Quebec, it isn't happening. [Tyee]
Former Socred MLA and veteran radio and print journalist Rafe Mair writes a Monday column for The Tyee. He has also served as a spokesperson for Save Our Rivers.
H
handee
Guest
Im glad you are not denying that Morton is a (phenomonally)rich kid from Boston. Im also not at all impressed that YOU determine that even though Alaska releases , what was it?, 85 million farm fish every year? that it doesnt seem to be having a negative impact. What a relief? 90+% disappear, but the catches are about the same so hey! no impact.
Same must be true for our Broughton pinks. The runs have been strong and fluctuating as per usual since the advent of salmon farming, so everything must be ok here too.
I asked allthe NGO's Cuttle- same lame answer you give ( "I dunno, go ask..."). With all the evidence staring you in the face from decades of continual universal failure to manage the wild salmon fishery, or any fishery on earth, you still kinda sorta think that fishing can be done right, but salmon farming cant. Huh.
Yet some billionaire's kid from Boston with friends that make computer models (and control the Alaska salmon farming industry co-inkyl dinkly) and a degree in whale music has convinced you that farming salmon is a threat to wild salmon. Despite none of her evidence being supported by lab or field studies or salmon return results and none of her predictions coming true. Huh.
We have to farm our food, period. We may be incapable of managing fisheries but we can manage farms.
Thanks for all those links Chris. Fact remains: what killed the Skeena, killed Fraser. One thing we know for sure: there is no credible evidence that salmon farms, through sea lice and/or disease, have any negative impact on wild stocks of any salmon (even the teeny weeny pinks and chums).
The same things (logging, mining, road building, landslides, predators, illegal/legal fishing, pollution, climate change etc) that killed off Skeena and Fraser (and all the other runs) persist today, perhaps even temporarily accelerating with the fish farm red herring siphoning away millions of potential stream rehab dollars.
Charlie
Well-Known Member
handee... Don't you ever get tired of being "Wrong"! Sorry you are wrong, again!
"Born and raised in Connecticut, Alexandra Morton began her career in marine mammal research in 1976, when she moved to California to work for noted dolphin researcher, Dr. John C. Lilly. Since 1984 she has lived on the isolated central British Columbia coast,..."
Sorry, the rest of your statements and comments are also not only wrong, they really just Bull S! Why don't you start providing some sort of intelligent comments and proof for all your crap, rather than just trolling?
BTW... YOU do know there is nothing wrong with fish farms, right! The State of Washington has one of the largest fish farm complexes in the world located in Clam Bay... and they don't seem to have problems! No diasease, no sea lice issues, no public relations problem, nor does any of our farms... Even the farms on the WCVI don't seem to have any issues? So, why are the operators on the ECVI having so many issues? Maybe it's not the farms?
Since NOAA,Canada, and DFO all state there is nothing wrong with aquaculture and fish farms, and since there isn't any issues on the WCVI,except the the farms ran by MHC - the only conclusion one can draw - THE PROBLEM MUST BE "YOU" AND THE REST OF YOUR INCOMPEDENT OPERATORS WORKING FOR MARINE HARVEST![:0][:0][:0]
I really am done, but just couldn't resist!
"Born and raised in Connecticut, Alexandra Morton began her career in marine mammal research in 1976, when she moved to California to work for noted dolphin researcher, Dr. John C. Lilly. Since 1984 she has lived on the isolated central British Columbia coast,..."
Sorry, the rest of your statements and comments are also not only wrong, they really just Bull S! Why don't you start providing some sort of intelligent comments and proof for all your crap, rather than just trolling?
BTW... YOU do know there is nothing wrong with fish farms, right! The State of Washington has one of the largest fish farm complexes in the world located in Clam Bay... and they don't seem to have problems! No diasease, no sea lice issues, no public relations problem, nor does any of our farms... Even the farms on the WCVI don't seem to have any issues? So, why are the operators on the ECVI having so many issues? Maybe it's not the farms?
Since NOAA,Canada, and DFO all state there is nothing wrong with aquaculture and fish farms, and since there isn't any issues on the WCVI,except the the farms ran by MHC - the only conclusion one can draw - THE PROBLEM MUST BE "YOU" AND THE REST OF YOUR INCOMPEDENT OPERATORS WORKING FOR MARINE HARVEST![:0][:0][:0]
I really am done, but just couldn't resist!
H
handee
Guest
quote:Originally posted by Charlie
handee... Don't you ever get tired of being "Wrong"! Sorry you are wrong, again!
"Born and raised in Connecticut, Alexandra Morton began her career in marine mammal research in 1976, when she moved to California to work for noted dolphin researcher, Dr. John C. Lilly. Since 1984 she has lived on the isolated central British Columbia coast,..."
Sorry, the rest of your statements and comments are also not only wrong, they really just Bull S! Why don't you start providing some sort of intelligent comments and proof for all your crap, rather than just trolling?
BTW... YOU do know there is nothing wrong with fish farms, right! The State of Washington has one of the largest fish farm complexes in the world located in Clam Bay... and they don't seem to have problems! No diasease, no sea lice issues, no public relations problem, nor does any of our farms... Even the farms on the WCVI don't seem to have any issues? So, why are the operators on the ECVI having so many issues? Maybe it's not the farms?
Since NOAA,Canada, and DFO all state there is nothing wrong with aquaculture and fish farms, and since there isn't any issues on the WCVI,except the the farms ran by MHC - the only conclusion one can draw - THE PROBLEM MUST BE "YOU" AND THE REST OF YOUR INCOMPEDENT OPERATORS WORKING FOR MARINE HARVEST![:0][:0][:0]
I really am done, but just couldn't resist!
What am I wrong about with Morton? That her Mother is the fabulously rich billionaire Barbara Hubbard or that she lived in Conneticut as well as Boston. im sure her family has estates all over the US.
How about she trade her bank records for the sea lice treatment records she wants so badly. I wonder how many times her Mommy has had a little chat with the Governor of Alaska. Did you know Mommy was shortlisted as a Democrat Vice President candidate in the 70's. Morton is no little hippie from Echo Bay, just as she aint no scientist. She is a well funded actvist using Mommy's money and influence to fight her cause and make herself famous.
The farmers arent having any unique issues on the ECVI or WCVI other than those manufactured by Morton and her new FN and NGO friends. The fish are doing well, business is good. The market for fresh BC farmed salmon is insatiable. Pressure to fish wild stocks is relived, all is good.
Their biggest issue is, like most exporters, probably with the rise of the Canadian dollar. And,of course, the inability to expand their operations in BC due to rampant misinformation paid for by US interest groups.
And there is no large fish farm complex in washington,there may be a research centre, but its aquaculture component is tiny.
Charlie, you are 0 for 2. Morton is rich kid from US and no big fish farm complex in Washington state.
Charlie
Well-Known Member
You really do make it “way to easy” to discredit you? And, I am only responding for the benefit of providing some “real” information to others!
I guess you should start by explaining to NOAA, they are wrong? I am sure you know more than they? http://www.nwfsc.noaa.gov/publications/techmemos/tm53/tm53.pdf “Clam Bay, Washington, location of the NMFS Manchester Research Station since 1969, and also the location of one of the largest salmon farms in the world since 1972, may be used as an example of the type of effects on EFH water quality that can be expected from a well-sited, large fish farm. In 1979 the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Region X Water Quality Laboratory was constructed on the shore of Clam Bay next to the NMFS Manchester Research Station.” The farm is part of “Icicle Seafoods” http://www.icicleseafoods.com/locations/ags/
Rather than going after Barbara Hubbard’s measly billion or so, why don’t you have your buddies at Marine Harvest tap into “John Fredriksen” resources, since he owns 30%: “John Fredriksen, (born 10 May 1944) is a Norwegian oil tanker and shipping tycoon, owner of the world's largest oil tanker fleet, and was Norway's richest man until he chose to abandon his Norwegian citizenship and take up a Cypriot passport.[1] Norwegian magazine Kapital listed Fredriksen in 2007 with a net worth of NOK 55.5 billion ($11 billion USD). Through his investment companies Hemen Holdings and Meisha, Fredriksen controls the companies Frontline and Golar LNG from his £100 million Chelsea home in London. He also has major interests in the oil rig operator SeaDrill, the fish farming company Marine Harvest and the dry bulk company Golden Ocean Group. Fredriksen also recently announced that Frontline through acquisitions and options and secured 9,6% of the worlds largest shipholding company Overseas Shipholding Group”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geveran_Trading
http://www.marineharvest.com/en/Investor1/Press-releases/2009/Mandatory-notification-of-trade11/
Oh, don’t forget to send the “Board of Directors of Marine Harvest Norway an email and let them know you don’t have any diseases and the “Kudoa thyrsitess” problem doesn’t really exist? They really didn’t need to write-off the NOK 26 million in 2008 and that decline in the Operational EBIT for 2008 was NOK 108 million compared to NOK 222 million in 2007 in Marine Harvest Canada wasn’t real… and you don’t have any problems?
”In the second half of 2008 quality challenges caused downgrading of fish and discards at harvest which influenced profit negatively.”
“Quality issues related to soft flesh caused discards and complaints amounting to NOK 26 million in 2008.”
http://hugin.info/209/R/1310360/303078.pdf
Then you might want to drop Alexandra Morton an email and let her know, she wasn’t really born and raised in Connecticut and you have proof she came from Maryland?
Birthdate January 1, 1957
Birthplace Connecticut, USA
Residence Echo Bay, BC
Family Members • Spouse: Robin Morton
Status Working
Degrees BSc, American University, Washington, DC, 1977
Awards Murray A. Newman Award for Aquatic Conservation, 2006
Last Updated October 13, 2006
http://www.science.ca/scientists/scientistprofile.php?pID=425&pg=3
BTW… you should read NOAA’s study, but when you do, please note they do state: “It should be understood that this review does not intend to evaluate potential risks associated with Atlantic salmon farming anywhere in the world except Puget Sound, Washington.”
“The conclusions regarding the potential impacts of Atlantic salmon culture on the Puget Sound chinook salmon and Hood Canal summer-run chum salmon ESUs are based on three important assumptions. The first assumption is that the salmon farming industry in Puget Sound remains approximately the same size as currently or in the recent past. A significant expansion of the industry may increase risks and would require a reconsideration of some of the potential impacts discussed in this review. The second assumption is that salmon farms in Puget Sound continue to rear only Atlantic salmon. Should the local industry shift production to coho or chinook salmon or to steelhead (O. mykiss), the risks for hybridization, dilution of the gene pool, colonization, and competition for natural resources with wild salmonids will be greater than they are now with Atlantic salmon culture. Third, these conclusions assume that Atlantic salmon farmers in Washington continue to use only stocks presently in culture and that no new Atlantic salmon stocks are brought into the State.”
Sorry, just couldn’t resist, again! You make it so easy!
If you don’t know what you are talking about, maybe you shouldn’t be talking?
Oh... since you are keeping score? You just lost the war! [:0][:0][:0]
I guess you should start by explaining to NOAA, they are wrong? I am sure you know more than they? http://www.nwfsc.noaa.gov/publications/techmemos/tm53/tm53.pdf “Clam Bay, Washington, location of the NMFS Manchester Research Station since 1969, and also the location of one of the largest salmon farms in the world since 1972, may be used as an example of the type of effects on EFH water quality that can be expected from a well-sited, large fish farm. In 1979 the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Region X Water Quality Laboratory was constructed on the shore of Clam Bay next to the NMFS Manchester Research Station.” The farm is part of “Icicle Seafoods” http://www.icicleseafoods.com/locations/ags/
Rather than going after Barbara Hubbard’s measly billion or so, why don’t you have your buddies at Marine Harvest tap into “John Fredriksen” resources, since he owns 30%: “John Fredriksen, (born 10 May 1944) is a Norwegian oil tanker and shipping tycoon, owner of the world's largest oil tanker fleet, and was Norway's richest man until he chose to abandon his Norwegian citizenship and take up a Cypriot passport.[1] Norwegian magazine Kapital listed Fredriksen in 2007 with a net worth of NOK 55.5 billion ($11 billion USD). Through his investment companies Hemen Holdings and Meisha, Fredriksen controls the companies Frontline and Golar LNG from his £100 million Chelsea home in London. He also has major interests in the oil rig operator SeaDrill, the fish farming company Marine Harvest and the dry bulk company Golden Ocean Group. Fredriksen also recently announced that Frontline through acquisitions and options and secured 9,6% of the worlds largest shipholding company Overseas Shipholding Group”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geveran_Trading
http://www.marineharvest.com/en/Investor1/Press-releases/2009/Mandatory-notification-of-trade11/
Oh, don’t forget to send the “Board of Directors of Marine Harvest Norway an email and let them know you don’t have any diseases and the “Kudoa thyrsitess” problem doesn’t really exist? They really didn’t need to write-off the NOK 26 million in 2008 and that decline in the Operational EBIT for 2008 was NOK 108 million compared to NOK 222 million in 2007 in Marine Harvest Canada wasn’t real… and you don’t have any problems?
”In the second half of 2008 quality challenges caused downgrading of fish and discards at harvest which influenced profit negatively.”
“Quality issues related to soft flesh caused discards and complaints amounting to NOK 26 million in 2008.”
http://hugin.info/209/R/1310360/303078.pdf
Then you might want to drop Alexandra Morton an email and let her know, she wasn’t really born and raised in Connecticut and you have proof she came from Maryland?
Birthdate January 1, 1957
Birthplace Connecticut, USA
Residence Echo Bay, BC
Family Members • Spouse: Robin Morton
Status Working
Degrees BSc, American University, Washington, DC, 1977
Awards Murray A. Newman Award for Aquatic Conservation, 2006
Last Updated October 13, 2006
http://www.science.ca/scientists/scientistprofile.php?pID=425&pg=3
BTW… you should read NOAA’s study, but when you do, please note they do state: “It should be understood that this review does not intend to evaluate potential risks associated with Atlantic salmon farming anywhere in the world except Puget Sound, Washington.”
“The conclusions regarding the potential impacts of Atlantic salmon culture on the Puget Sound chinook salmon and Hood Canal summer-run chum salmon ESUs are based on three important assumptions. The first assumption is that the salmon farming industry in Puget Sound remains approximately the same size as currently or in the recent past. A significant expansion of the industry may increase risks and would require a reconsideration of some of the potential impacts discussed in this review. The second assumption is that salmon farms in Puget Sound continue to rear only Atlantic salmon. Should the local industry shift production to coho or chinook salmon or to steelhead (O. mykiss), the risks for hybridization, dilution of the gene pool, colonization, and competition for natural resources with wild salmonids will be greater than they are now with Atlantic salmon culture. Third, these conclusions assume that Atlantic salmon farmers in Washington continue to use only stocks presently in culture and that no new Atlantic salmon stocks are brought into the State.”
Sorry, just couldn’t resist, again! You make it so easy!
If you don’t know what you are talking about, maybe you shouldn’t be talking?
Oh... since you are keeping score? You just lost the war! [:0][:0][:0]
The Progress, 3rd November 2009
Column underplays environmental threat
Re: Usual suspects in the salmon crisis (B.C. Views, Oct. 30).
Tom Fletcher describes my opposition to salmon farms and run-of-river power projects as “bunk”. I realize that he is a right-winger with a right-wing paper but surely that doesn’t exempt him from telling the whole truth.
Regarding fish farms, does he not know that the run of pinks that was abundant this year passed fallowed fish farms when they migrated as smolts, and that this return confirms Alexandra Morton’s findings? That this was an experiment that proved the point of every private scientist who has examined this issue?
Regarding run-of-river, how can he ignore that fact that the bulk of the private power is to be exported if only because it’s produced when BC Hydro doesn’t need it? How can BC Hydro give take-or-pay contracts with private power companies at double the amount they can sell it for on the export market?
Regarding his earlier description of the Bute Inlet project hearing in Campbell River at which I spoke, how extraordinary of him to object to the word “****.” Even more extraordinary was his failure to observe that the crowd was angry because they had no opportunity – and indeed had never had – to deal with the “merits” but were confined to the “terms of reference” for an environmental assessment of a project they didn’t want.
Does he have no concern for the environmental havoc private power projects wreak?
Rafe Mair
Lions Bay
http://www.bclocalnews.com/fraser_valley/theprogress/opinion/68874377.html
Column underplays environmental threat
Re: Usual suspects in the salmon crisis (B.C. Views, Oct. 30).
Tom Fletcher describes my opposition to salmon farms and run-of-river power projects as “bunk”. I realize that he is a right-winger with a right-wing paper but surely that doesn’t exempt him from telling the whole truth.
Regarding fish farms, does he not know that the run of pinks that was abundant this year passed fallowed fish farms when they migrated as smolts, and that this return confirms Alexandra Morton’s findings? That this was an experiment that proved the point of every private scientist who has examined this issue?
Regarding run-of-river, how can he ignore that fact that the bulk of the private power is to be exported if only because it’s produced when BC Hydro doesn’t need it? How can BC Hydro give take-or-pay contracts with private power companies at double the amount they can sell it for on the export market?
Regarding his earlier description of the Bute Inlet project hearing in Campbell River at which I spoke, how extraordinary of him to object to the word “****.” Even more extraordinary was his failure to observe that the crowd was angry because they had no opportunity – and indeed had never had – to deal with the “merits” but were confined to the “terms of reference” for an environmental assessment of a project they didn’t want.
Does he have no concern for the environmental havoc private power projects wreak?
Rafe Mair
Lions Bay
http://www.bclocalnews.com/fraser_valley/theprogress/opinion/68874377.html
S
sockeyefry
Guest
Gunsmith,
I think that it is how she is going sbout her business, not what she is finding. She has sworn to rid the ocean of fish farms, which represents an uncompromising position and forces the industry from a possible cooperative stance to one of defense at all costs, you know deny deflect, discredit etc..., which is the non productive process you see now. CAAR, and to a lesser degree the GSA has adopted a more cooperative approach which is to involve industry in this case Marine Harvest in trying to have both goals realised. The 2 goals are of course a viable sustainabvle salmon farming industry AND the preservation and enhancement of Wild Salmon. Fish farm companies are quite active in the enhancement of wild salmon in spite of public rhetoric to the contrary.
Morton has cut all ties to the CAAR and GSA because of their cooperative stance with the farm industry. And by cooperative, I am not suggesting that they are in any way subservient or cavuing to prssure. I think that groups such as these have roles to serve in keeping promises of performance on track.
I think that it is how she is going sbout her business, not what she is finding. She has sworn to rid the ocean of fish farms, which represents an uncompromising position and forces the industry from a possible cooperative stance to one of defense at all costs, you know deny deflect, discredit etc..., which is the non productive process you see now. CAAR, and to a lesser degree the GSA has adopted a more cooperative approach which is to involve industry in this case Marine Harvest in trying to have both goals realised. The 2 goals are of course a viable sustainabvle salmon farming industry AND the preservation and enhancement of Wild Salmon. Fish farm companies are quite active in the enhancement of wild salmon in spite of public rhetoric to the contrary.
Morton has cut all ties to the CAAR and GSA because of their cooperative stance with the farm industry. And by cooperative, I am not suggesting that they are in any way subservient or cavuing to prssure. I think that groups such as these have roles to serve in keeping promises of performance on track.
The Global Week of Action starts Monday!
Next week, November 9th to 14th, is the fourth annual Global Week of Action! People from salmon farming regions in Europe, Chile, the USA and Canada will be working to draw attention to the destructive effects of open net-cage salmon farming, and to demand change from both industry and government.
Vancouver Rally
The Coastal Alliance for Aquaculture Reform is hosting daily actions through our Wild Salmon Narrows e-campaign. Every morning next week, you’ll get a special message you can send to government asking them to clean up the salmon farming industry. Sign up http://www.farmedanddangerous.org/page/weeklongactions to be part of the action. There is a lot to be concerned about.
In Europe, salmon escapes are on the rise. Intrafish -- an online publication for global seafood professionals -- just reported a 380% increase over last year in salmon and trout escapes in Norway so far for 2009. Scotland also reported an escape in September where 60,000 salmon fled an open-net cage farm in Argyll.
In Chile, the widely documented infectious salmon anemia (ISA) outbreak ravaged the country’s salmon farming industry, wiping out three quarters of its stock. This led to the massive use of antibiotics in a futile attempt to stop the spread of disease, thousands of lost jobs, devastated communities, as well as major economic losses.
Canada’s west coast witnessed the crash of its iconic Fraser River sockeye run -- only 1.3 million returned out of an expected 10.4 million -- with salmon farms a possible factor in the crash. And just last month 40,000 salmon escaped a Marine Harvest farm in BC. On the east coast in New Brunswick, Health Canada approved experimental trials of deltamethrin, a synthetic insecticide used to treat sea lice infestation on farmed salmon by surrounding the farm with tarps, ‘bathing’ the fish in the insecticide, then releasing the treated water into the marine environment. Since salmon farmers in Canada normally rely on emamectin benzoate (EB), or SLICE to manage sea lice, the trials are likely a response to another problem with salmon farming -- a growing resistance to chemicals and pesticides used in the production of farmed fish. The release of these chemicals into the open ocean after the experiment was also of great concern.
From the global perspective, international standards for sustainable salmon aquaculture are currently under discussion by both the global industry and conservation groups in response to rising consumer demand for more sustainable products. This is a critical overarching issue -- rigorous standards are essential to ensure the protection of wild salmon and marine ecosystems. CAAR has been actively involved in this process through the Salmon Aquaculture Dialogue. Members of CAAR will be meeting with other stakeholders involved in this group in Norway this November and we will keep you informed of the progress.
Clearly, there is much work to be done on the road to sustainability when it comes to salmon aquaculture. But we can achieve real change, such as shifting production to closed containment, by standing together as concerned citizens and letting government and industry know enough is enough. During the Global Week of Action, people are doing just that! Be part of the international effort to foster change by getting involved in BC, signing up for our week-long actions, or going to the Global Week of Action international website for links to actions in other regions. No matter where you are, you can make a difference.
Thank you for your support!
http://www.livingoceans.org/newsletters/farmed_and_dangerous/fad11060901.aspx#a1
Next week, November 9th to 14th, is the fourth annual Global Week of Action! People from salmon farming regions in Europe, Chile, the USA and Canada will be working to draw attention to the destructive effects of open net-cage salmon farming, and to demand change from both industry and government.
Vancouver Rally
The Coastal Alliance for Aquaculture Reform is hosting daily actions through our Wild Salmon Narrows e-campaign. Every morning next week, you’ll get a special message you can send to government asking them to clean up the salmon farming industry. Sign up http://www.farmedanddangerous.org/page/weeklongactions to be part of the action. There is a lot to be concerned about.
In Europe, salmon escapes are on the rise. Intrafish -- an online publication for global seafood professionals -- just reported a 380% increase over last year in salmon and trout escapes in Norway so far for 2009. Scotland also reported an escape in September where 60,000 salmon fled an open-net cage farm in Argyll.
In Chile, the widely documented infectious salmon anemia (ISA) outbreak ravaged the country’s salmon farming industry, wiping out three quarters of its stock. This led to the massive use of antibiotics in a futile attempt to stop the spread of disease, thousands of lost jobs, devastated communities, as well as major economic losses.
Canada’s west coast witnessed the crash of its iconic Fraser River sockeye run -- only 1.3 million returned out of an expected 10.4 million -- with salmon farms a possible factor in the crash. And just last month 40,000 salmon escaped a Marine Harvest farm in BC. On the east coast in New Brunswick, Health Canada approved experimental trials of deltamethrin, a synthetic insecticide used to treat sea lice infestation on farmed salmon by surrounding the farm with tarps, ‘bathing’ the fish in the insecticide, then releasing the treated water into the marine environment. Since salmon farmers in Canada normally rely on emamectin benzoate (EB), or SLICE to manage sea lice, the trials are likely a response to another problem with salmon farming -- a growing resistance to chemicals and pesticides used in the production of farmed fish. The release of these chemicals into the open ocean after the experiment was also of great concern.
From the global perspective, international standards for sustainable salmon aquaculture are currently under discussion by both the global industry and conservation groups in response to rising consumer demand for more sustainable products. This is a critical overarching issue -- rigorous standards are essential to ensure the protection of wild salmon and marine ecosystems. CAAR has been actively involved in this process through the Salmon Aquaculture Dialogue. Members of CAAR will be meeting with other stakeholders involved in this group in Norway this November and we will keep you informed of the progress.
Clearly, there is much work to be done on the road to sustainability when it comes to salmon aquaculture. But we can achieve real change, such as shifting production to closed containment, by standing together as concerned citizens and letting government and industry know enough is enough. During the Global Week of Action, people are doing just that! Be part of the international effort to foster change by getting involved in BC, signing up for our week-long actions, or going to the Global Week of Action international website for links to actions in other regions. No matter where you are, you can make a difference.
Thank you for your support!
http://www.livingoceans.org/newsletters/farmed_and_dangerous/fad11060901.aspx#a1
S
sockeyefry
Guest
Gunsmiwht,
Yeah, so you see it is not a very "cooperative" environment. Too much bad blood. It really is a shame because I think that the industry should be held up to appropriate standards, and levels of conduct, in keeping with what is required of similar industries. I do not think they should be allowed to get away with things, nor do I feel that they should suffer an overbearance of unrealistic regulation.
I think that Marine harvest should be fined for the escape, and required to demonstrate how they are going to prevent any future escapes. In addition, I feel the fines should be additive, that is if they have another escape, even if it is at a different farm, then this should be considered a second offense with a higher penalty and so on.
Yeah, so you see it is not a very "cooperative" environment. Too much bad blood. It really is a shame because I think that the industry should be held up to appropriate standards, and levels of conduct, in keeping with what is required of similar industries. I do not think they should be allowed to get away with things, nor do I feel that they should suffer an overbearance of unrealistic regulation.
I think that Marine harvest should be fined for the escape, and required to demonstrate how they are going to prevent any future escapes. In addition, I feel the fines should be additive, that is if they have another escape, even if it is at a different farm, then this should be considered a second offense with a higher penalty and so on.
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