fish farm siting criteria & politics

[cuttlefish]

Sockeyefry, you asked;

quote:Gees Cuttle, you anti's seem to take the NI Gazzettes word when it's Morton's article, why stop now?

Once again, I just took a page from your play book. But instead of just calling down the source, I've identified what I perceived as inconsistencies in the media report so that you could respond either by pointing out my error or by answering my question with some accurate, useful and informative information. But instead you chose to use the inane quip I quoted above. Responses like that detract from intelligent debate and discussion. A real shame.

 

[YEAH BUDDY]

So here is a question for all anti-salmon farms out there;
So if you want to save wild salmon from complete decimation and help conserve wild salmon and make it possible for your kids and their kids to catch them what would be the best way to do it? Get rid of all open pen salmon farms on the B.C coast because they are killing all salmon farms and are to blame for the collapse of all salmon runs in B.C rivers due to sea lice?

I don’t know if that’s the right way to look at it, think about it, its simple math. Salmon farms in B.C produced 80,000,000 kg’s of fish into the market for human consumption, that is 176,369,840 lb’s of fish…a lot of fish. Now lets move to wild fish lets say the average wild salmon weighs 20lbs (most fish farms produce there fish at ten pounds) so if we got rid of salmon farms, we would need to get are salmon from some where. People all over the world need salmon so if we get rid of all net pens we get rid of 176,369,840 lb’s of fish into the market. So people go to the wild stock the get there 176,369,840 lb’s of fish. This is where the average 20lb fish is caught all 8,818,492 fish to match what the aqua culture industry used to supply to the industry, before we snuffed them out because they were “killing” are wild salmon. If we got rid of the salmon farms we would have to kill 8,818,492 20lb salmon what if we only got 10lber’s (the approximate size of fish harvested from salmon farms) well that’s only 17,636,984 ten pound salmon. But lets stick with the 20lbers to prove my point. So we kill 8,818,492 salmon assuming that they are all Chinook just for a argument purpose (20lb Coho, Chum, Sockeye, and Pink don’t come around to often) so I have to now ask where do we get almost 9 million springs? Not from the Robertson Creek Hatchery they only got 1,836 Chinook as of September 20th. However DFO is expecting 33,000 Chinook to return to the hatchery. So being hugely optimistic and again for argument sake and making the math easier (math is not my forte) lets say the Robertson Creek Hatchery gets 50,000 Chinook back to the river. It will only take 176.37 years for “The Salmon Capital of The World” hatchery to produce what aquaculture does in one year. So say good by to the labour day derby for your kids and their kids and there kids.

My point is maybe getting rid of them is not the solution we should be looking for, maybe we should be looking at safer, cleaner salmon farming practices and poly-culture.

Just my two cents. And no I am not a associated with any salmon farms or any aqua culture company. I am a 18 year old who gets my money from the sport fishing industry in Bamfield and I want to teach my kids how to fish even though I’m just a kid myself.

Tight lines.

 

[agentaqua]

Welcome yeah buddy. Good post.

You're right in that to replace the volume of currently farmed salmon that currently feeds mostly American supermarkets with wild stocks would probably decimate the wild stocks in short order.

You're also right that we need to switch to safer, cleaner salmon farming practices, such as closed containment.

For your 1st assumption re farmed salmon production - let me ask you if using large amounts of forage fishes in the manufacturing of farmed salmon feed in order to produce a carniverous fish for high-end consumption is a good idea?

Have you heard of Tilapia?

For your 2nd assumption - the fish farmers claim that it is not profitable to switch to closed containment, no matter what the consequences to adjacent wild salmon stocks are, and because the government has not forced them to.

What do you think about that answer?

 

[YEAH BUDDY]

Agentaqua

I agree killing millions of tons of fish to feed tons of other fish doesn’t not make sense. I do believe if I am not mistaken that fish meal only takes up approximately 15% of fish food (not positive but its not a large number) the other 85% is a mix of vegetable oil, water and vitamins. Still it doesn’t make sense to use fish meal at all but fish meal is also used in cat food, dog food, and chicken food along with a lot of other things. BUT I still think it is wrong. Especially since most of the fish meal comes from Chile and Peru, the carbon foot print is ridiculous, but I would rather have a fish eating fish then a veggie eating fish….Still wrong practice, in my opinion.

Closed containment pens I believe are the way of the future. Why they don’t do it makes sense to me, they already have nets and working farms for cheap out there why change? Its human nature to go for cheap and easy ways out of things, if the brass puts more money in their pocket then why would they want to change for a salary cut? But this need to be changed. And needs to be changed quickly.

I have heard of tilapia, big industry for small fish. Why do you ask?

I just want to protect wild salmon and I don’t think getting rid of salmon farms is the way to do it.

Tight lines

 

[agentaqua]

quote:Originally posted by YEAH BUDDY

Agentaqua

I agree killing millions of tons of fish to feed tons of other fish doesn’t not make sense. I do believe if I am not mistaken that fish meal only takes up approximately 15% of fish food (not positive but its not a large number) the other 85% is a mix of vegetable oil, water and vitamins. Still it doesn’t make sense to use fish meal at all but fish meal is also used in cat food, dog food, and chicken food along with a lot of other things. BUT I still think it is wrong. Especially since most of the fish meal comes from Chile and Peru, the carbon foot print is ridiculous, but I would rather have a fish eating fish then a veggie eating fish….Still wrong practice, in my opinion.

Closed containment pens I believe are the way of the future. Why they don’t do it makes sense to me, they already have nets and working farms for cheap out there why change? Its human nature to go for cheap and easy ways out of things, if the brass puts more money in their pocket then why would they want to change for a salary cut? But this need to be changed. And needs to be changed quickly.

I have heard of tilapia, big industry for small fish. Why do you ask?

I just want to protect wild salmon and I don’t think getting rid of salmon farms is the way to do it.

For an "18 year old who gets my money from the sport fishing industry" who is "not a associated with any salmon farms" - you are remarkably well informed of the issues, YEAH BUDDY.

The reason I brought-up Tilapia, and the fish feed component - is to point out another glaring problem with our current aquaculture production and marketing end of things.

Tilapia is a veggie-eating fish - as you pointed-out.

Currently something like 4-5 lbs of forage fish from Chile & Peru (as you pointed-out) are converted into 1 pound of aquacultured Atlantic salmon - at a loss of MILLIONS of lbs of fish protein.

If instead, you switch to fish (like tilapia) that can digest a more vegetarian diet - you could avoid wasting MILLIONS of lbs of fish. This is the same argument why we should eat more chickens and eggs, verses steak - we should all eat lower on the trophic ladder.

You're right - It is human nature to go for cheap and easy ways out of things.

But - is that a valid excuse? Is that what we should aim for? The lowest societal and moral benchmarks? Isn't it time we grow-up as a society?

Since our technological might has increased so much over the past hundred years or so (and the human population has ballooned); we now have much higher consequences to our actions, and a much higher bar of social responsibility.

It's analogous to giving you kid the keys to your car. The kid may not have the maturity to drive the car. Maybe the kid drives over your neighbours and wrecks the car in the process.

Along with power, comes responsibility. One should not wield the power without that maturity, training and legislative actions. Legislative actions and training are normally based on recognizing the consequences of alternative actions.

We have yet to do this in BC with respect to open net-cage technology.

We, as a civilization, have very little time to grow-up now. We have to start making better choices, and very quickly.

 

[sockeyefry]

Agent,

The production of fish meal has remained stable for the last decade. yet the production of salmon world wide has sky rocketed over the same time frame.

The old tired adage of 4 - 5 to 1 is just that yeaterdays news. The feed industry along with the farming companies have reduced the fish meal component dramatically as the above statement would logcally attest. Of course it makes for dramatic headlines when you are trying to sway the general public to your side. Of course the logical people would see that 4 to 1 doesn't make sense. Which is exactly the conclusion you want drawn isn't it?

They are able to use more alternate protein sources, and in fact have produced salmon on an all veggie derived diet. However the reason the fish meals are used is because of cost. They simply are cheaper right now than the vegetable protein meals. The fish meals are being produced for sale by the companies in the areas such as Chile and Peru. They are offered for sale to any buyer, be that fish feed manufacturers or fertilizer plants. Yes fish meal is used for fertilizer as well. Forgot to mention that I see. More agenda driven fact omission. You make it sound like the fish meal is produced exclusively for the fish farms and that if the fish farms were not using it, then the production would cease. WRONG It will be produced and used by someone else.

If the fish meal sources were to stop producing product then the fish farms would use another source of protein, along with the chicken , and pig farmers, and the pet food industry.

So Agent, your insinuation that the fish farmers are raping the ocean around Chile to feed the luxury salmon is not true. Yes it makes for great headlines, but the simple fact remains that the meal is produced ands offered for sale to any buyer from any inmdustry with a need for the propduct. It is not produced exclusiovely for the salnmon farm industry, and will continue even if the salmon farm industry stops using fish meal for feed.

It also intrigues me that you are not complaining about the 15 lbs of fish needed to produce 1 lb of edible weight chicken.

Closed Containment is possible from a technical standpoint. In addition to costing more, it has larger environmental consequences than net pen farming. The amount of fuels that would be needed move the amount of water required would create an Insanely large "carbon footprint". In addition there is only a reduced risk in the possibility for escapes, disease transfer (including Sea lice) and benthic impact.

Yes Cost is a driving factor for the farming companies as it is for any company. It is not evil or conspiratory. I am really surprised with the numner of environmentalists who are pushing for this technology without really understanding the implications.

 

[YEAH BUDDY]

sockeyefry,
closed net pens would have a huge carbon foot print, however if you think about how much more would it have then a swimming pool? In fact from where I see and I might be wrong but wouldn’t it be less. For one you would not need to put chemicals into the water that are terrible for the environment like chlorine bromine and others. Or a roof on it. You are right that pumping millions of gallons of salt water into a tank would be a fortune, and the farmer would have to oxidize it, either from a tower or pumping pressurized O2 gas into the water. Another major expense.

People have started running closed containment pens like in Ice Land, and one actually in Cedar. But when the price of salmon dropped so did production so it wasn’t economically viable to keep running it. But with the increase need in salmon and the near collapse of the sockeye this year I think people will start looking at it once more.

There are lots of major benefits to closed containment systems however that most people over look. There will be no escapes, and no predators entering your net pen and drowning, the shipping costs of shipping the fish will be decimated, also shipping your workers out there will also not be a problem. Also they are socially acceptable, and you can get tourists to come see your fish and buy it straight from the farm. I mean I would want to go to a place that raised millions of salmon it would be awesome no more need to go to sea world. Also with fish farms you can increase the density of your fish to approx. 80-100kg/m3 compared to a net pen which is about 15-20kg/m3 (were talking Atlantic Salmon). So in the long run I think it would be economically viable.

Agentaqua I am a 18 year old who does work and guide out in Bamfield, and not associated with salmon farms in any way except I am in the Fisheries and Aquaculture Program at VIU. Wich in no means makes me a expert it just means I push pencils all day about this stuff.

 

[fish4all]

lots of good discussion but i still feel the open farms should remain empty during the out migration at least. They should also have a ban on the lights around the cages. Small price to pay until independant science can prove without a doubt there is no impact from the farms.

 

[agentaqua]

quote:Originally posted by sockeyefry

Agent,

It also intrigues me that you are not complaining about the 15 lbs of fish needed to produce 1 lb of edible weight chicken.

That's called "deflection", sockeyefry.

Sockeyefry, look at the title of this thread, and the web address of the web page. This is a thread about "fish farm siting criteria & politics" posted on the "Sport Fishing BC Forums".

If you want to start a thread about fish meal and oil used in chicken feed, feel free to either start one here, or go to the Canadian poultry producers website.

Do I think overharvesting of chilean forage fish for the fish meal and oil for any reason is a good idea - No.

BUT we are focused on the effects of the open net-cage technology here - and so, YES - there is an impact - a net loss - on available fish protein that goes into the production of farmed Atlantic salmon on the order of ~4 lbs lost to produce every lb of Atlantic salmon flesh to market.

It's another impact, that I'm glad to hear "intrigues" you.

quote:Originally posted by YEAH BUDDY

Agentaqua I am a 18 year old who does work and guide out in Bamfield, and not associated with salmon farms in any way except I am in the Fisheries and Aquaculture Program at VIU. Wich in no means makes me a expert it just means I push pencils all day about this stuff.

I'm glad you're interesting in this stuff YEAH BUDDY. I do believe in the concept of aquaculture, by-the-way - just not open net-cage technology as it is currently practiced. I think we both agree on this, after reading your postings.

That unfortunately goes against the current vision that our regulators (Harper, and Campbell; DFO and BCMAFF) have mapped-out for us - the great unwashed.

I believe this has something to do with campaign and party contributions, manila envelopes under the table, corruption, collusion, egos, and a long-term game plan to wipe-out wild salmon so that water exports and diversions (and hydro power) to the states can develop and carry-on unimpeded.

The people who are dependent upon wild salmon are not the ones promoting this. Government working in collusion with industry are.

Anyone who dissents is given the same treatment Alex Morton and other dissenters get - severe personal attacks, just re-read this forum for examples of that.

Industry proponents don't want debate. There's too much to hide.

So, you too will face much opposition within the pro-aquaculture lobby if you state that you don't believe in the concept of open net-cage technology.

Hang on for the ride, and hang on to your morals, yeah buddy. It's a bumpy ride.

 

[Charlie]

quote:Originally posted by agentaqua



If instead, you switch to fish (like tilapia) that can digest a more vegetarian diet - you could avoid wasting MILLIONS of lbs of fish. This is the same argument why we should eat more chickens and eggs, verses steak - we should all eat lower on the trophic ladder.

We, as a civilization, have very little time to grow-up now. We have to start making better choices, and very quickly.

I don't think eating "tilapia" would be a wise choice over salmon! At least, that is what the Mayo Clinic is saying, if I am reading it right:

"You may not have heard so much about a second ingredient they contain, omega-6 fatty acids. Like omega-3s, these are polyunsaturated and help lower blood cholesterol levels, however they are thought to play a role in clotting function, are inflammatory and susceptible to oxidation — thereby possibly increasing risk for blood clots, arthritis, inflammatory bowel disease and cancers."

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/tilapia/MY00167

 

[agentaqua]

quote:Originally posted by Charlie



I don't think eating "tilapia" would be a wise choice over salmon! At least, that is what the Mayo Clinic is saying, if I am reading it right:

"You may not have heard so much about a second ingredient they contain, omega-6 fatty acids. Like omega-3s, these are polyunsaturated and help lower blood cholesterol levels, however they are thought to play a role in clotting function, are inflammatory and susceptible to oxidation — thereby possibly increasing risk for blood clots, arthritis, inflammatory bowel disease and cancers."

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/tilapia/MY00167

hey Charlie, Yes it's true farmed salmon would have more Omega-3's than tilapia.

However, farmed salmon is only but 1 source of Omega 3's.

Obviously wild salmon has as much Omega 3's as farmed fish; and most seafood in general has Omega 3's (esp. cold-water fish), and many grains have Omega 3's, as well.

So eating a healthy, balanced diet is key; Omega 3's are not an excuse to raise farmed salmon.

We had a good conversation about this at: http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9310

 

[Charlie]

Omega 3 = Good
Omega 6 = BAD!
I for sure don't claim to know what I am talking about here!
Doesn't wild obtain most of the omega 3 from the bait fish they eat, while farmed obtain it from the fish meal?

In either case, I think, I will stick with eating the good old salmon I catch out on the WCVI, for as long as I can. At least before they are all killed off?

 

[sockeyefry]

Give me a break Agent, You toss all sorts of topics out here in your posted opinionatorials.

"Anyone who dissents is given the same treatment Alex Morton and other dissenters get - severe personal attacks, just re-read this forum for examples of that.

Industry proponents don't want debate. There's too much to hide."

This is rich AA. Yes reread the posts, and see how many times I have suffered severe personal attacks. Rico has evene threatened violence, something about meeting me on a dock and punching me out. Get off your high horse. Really it was a weak post from you. Guess you agree with my posts regarding the fish meal industry & its markets.

Yeah Buddy,

A swinmming pool is a closed loop recycled system with a little bit of new water added to make up for losses due to evaporation etc... A tank farm needs a constant supply of water, in large volumes. Now this can be recirculated also, reducing the need for new water, but the fact still remains that you need the pump large volumes of water through the tank. As an illustration a tank with a volume of 165m3 requires approx 4000 lpm of water flow. This is provided by a 7.5 hp pump. This tank will grow 7000 kgs of fish. (Salmon can't be grown at 80 -100 kg/m3 in tanks. Arcrtic Charr is probabaly the only salmonid which can be grown at those densities) If your prof's are telling you this you may want to clarify where they are able to be grown at this density, and at what stage.

At $0.06 per Kwh. this pump need approx. $0.45 per hour, about $25 per day. It will take 14 months to produce the 7000 kgs. The total electricity bill would be $10,000. This translate into $1.43 being added to the production cost of a kg of salmon. This simply means that people pay more for salmon. However, from an environmental standpoint, the tank required the production of an additional 75,000 Kwh of electricity.

Now the big problem BC produces 80,000 tonnes, That is 80,000,000 kgs. At the above rates, to put the entire salmon industry on land would require an additional power generation of 856,000,000 KwH. Better get those run of the river projects up and running.

The farm at Cedar has had 4 owners over the last 15 years of its existance. It is not economical in its present format.

To state there will be no escapes from a closed containmenet farm is an error. Some of the worst escapes I have witnessed have occurred from Futuer Sea SeaBag closed containment systems. In fact one was split by a thin ice layer and released 100,000 rainbow trout, while net pens beside it were fine. The ice cut the tarp like a knife through butter. However, the risk of escape would be reduced with on land farms, but not eliminated.

You do make valid points that there are advantages to closed containment. Another is that the farmer has more control over his in tank environment. He would not be at the mercy of things such as Low Diss. Oxygen events, or toxic algae bloom which occurr randomly along the BC coast and can be a real problem. Now before AA jumps on this, they are not caused by the farms. These events can be have a real economic impact on their bottom lines. However, none of these threats are as large as the $1.43 / kg I have just stated in additional costs just to pump the water in the recirculation part.

And don't listen to AA. Since I am basically the only pro farm person here, I can state that I don't shrink from debate nor stoop to personal attacks, although I have been the victim of several.

 

[Captain Dudds]

Hey YEAH BUDDY,

I'm no expert here but I read this topic fairly often - you were talking about how replacing farmed fish with wild fish would destroy the wild runs. With regard to that, I've heard a few times pro-farmers say it makes sense to reduce pressure on wild fish by producing farmed, but realistically, what the commercial fleet catches is not effected by what is produced by farms. Regardless of how much fish is or isn't farmed, the commercial fleet will be given a quota, and then they will catch it.

 

[sockeyefry]

I have to agree Captain. If farmed salmon was not available from BC, this does not mean an increase in commercial catches. The wild populations could not sustain it. What it would mean is that the farmed output of Chile or Norway would be increased to take up the space in the market. BC would lose the jobs created by the farms, and associated business with no increase in employment from Commericla fishing. The impact on the world supply of salmon would be largte for a few years till production ramped up elsewhere, then it would be as if BC never existed. In fact even the Alaskans would probably ramp up production of Sea Ranched salmon, which with its already large impact on BC's wild salmon populations would become even greater. I find that interesting how their Ranching impact is never discussed here.

 

[chris73]

Here lies the whole paradox and idiocy of open pen fish farming in BC: for $1.43 per kg they are willing to put our wild salmon at risk! What a joke! If they only opened their eyes then they would see that people would be more than willing to pay for this extra if they could label the product "sustainable and responsible". Yea, but why be good and proactive if not required by law, eh? Cheap and dirty is better!

BTW, sockeye, the $1.43 per kg is only a very simplified guess as you just described a car as a metal frame with 4 wheels. For the sake of argument - ok - but this number could actually be a fraction if throught through by someone who actually understands the technologies available and applicable to such a facility. Engineering can be quite fascinating for bystanders.

 

[cuttlefish]

I think it's great that Yeah Buddy has brought this thread back to a more rational level of discussion. Good to hear from someone open to new ideas and exploring questions like, "How do we get there?" instead of why we shouldn't.

I also agree with Chris73 about true costs and I hope to provoke more rational discussion by pointing out some inconsistencies with the $1.43/kg number that Sockeyefry posted.

Sockeyefry stated it would take $0.45/hour worth of electricity to pump the water required to grow out 7000 kgs of salmon and that would equate to about $25/day. A day is only 24 hours so $0.45/hr x 24 hours = $11/day, not $25/day. $11/day x 14 months = $4684 for the grow out period as defined by Sockeyefry. $4684 divided by 7000 kgs = $0.67/kg, not $1.43/kg.

Furthermore, using Sockeyefry's additional figures, 75,000 kw hours of electricity is required to pump the water to grow out the 7000 kgs of salmon in a tank. 75,000 kwh x $0.06/kwh = only $4500, less than half the $10,000 estimated. $4500 divided by 7000 kgs = $0.64/kg.

Research quoted in a front page business article in Saturday's Vancouver Sun indicates consumers are willing to pay up to 10% more for products produced sustainably. What is the current price for a kilogram of farmed salmon? Is $0.65/kg more than 10% of the current price/kilogram?

What about factoring in the cost of waste collection/management currently externalized to the environment by farmed salmon producers? What is the cost to dairy, poultry, pork and beef producers? Can these costs be compared and included into the actual cost of producing farmed salmon?

I think these would be valid questions for Yeah Buddy to ask at the VIU Aquaculture school while examining the true costs of open net cage farms vs. tank farms.

 

[sockeyefry]

Cuttle,

Yep you are right. Somehow I doubled the electricty cost. I have smashed that calculator an purchased a new one. Always blame the tools right? Thanks for catching the calculation error.

Now before you run off thinking that electricty isd the only extra cost, there are others including increases in oxygen, labour, maintenance to name a few.

I am not against the use of closed containment, and believe it will eventually come, but for right now it is not viable based on the global competition in salmon production. I wanted to point out the asheer magnitude of what it would take to replace the BC industry with a closed containment system.

Another requirement is space, that is flat land next to the ocean. To grow the 80,000 tonnes annually produced would require 1200 tanks which are 12m in Diameter and 2.5m deep. This is at a density of 40 kg/m3. The production of the 80,000 tonnes annually would require 715 of these tanks while the remainder would be growing the juveniles for next years crop. These tanks would have to be on Racirculation technology to reduce the costs, and would require 300 units of 4 tanks plus treatment facilities. The 300 units would be housed in building that would be 50'X 350'. Just for the buildings, this would require 120 acres of cleared flat land on the ocean. This could easily double with the requirement for service buildings, parking, etc... It would also have to be close to the power grid, and with sufficiently deep water near shore for pumping. So you see that there are problems associated with this technology, and it is not a slam dunk as some have been lead to believe by the NGO's lying to the media and NDP committees.

The rationale about willingness to pay 10% more doesn't come to fruituon at the grocery store. People always answer positively during the polls, but when it comes to paying up at the till, they do not. Ever notice how the organic section of the produce dept. is the smallest in large chain stores?

Agrimarine used to produce coho at its plant in Cedar. They were sold at Thrifty's as "ecosalmon". Yes some sold, but at a premium price it was not enough to keep the farm open. They produced a very small amount of fish, and could not sell it.

And Chris73, stop being condescending regarding the knowledge of technology. I have managed 5 closed containment farms, both in freshwater and salt. So don't tell me
...."by someone who actually understands the technologies available and applicable to such a facility. Engineering can be quite fascinating for bystanders."

HOW MANY CLOSED CONTAINMENT FARMS HAVE YOU MANAGED? UNTIL YOU'VE DONE IT, THEN STOP COMMENTING ABOUT OTHERS ABILITIES AND KNOWLEDGE.

 

[Gunsmith]

You know Sockeye you are like a bikini salesman at a leper colony, trying to convince them to wear a bikini. It just won't cut the mustard here. Most of the people here don't want open net fishfarms period. You cannot make them seem good enough. As for trying to correct the lies, you should be like the politicians and become a proficient liar also.

 

[chris73]

Sockeye, very sad if you have managed multiple closed containment farms in fresh and salt (btw, why have you then so rigorously denied the existence of the latter and said it can't be done?) and STILL don't have a good grip on the technology involved and required!! Maybe you just failed your own destiny and should have become something else!? Someone suggested politician, how about that? Maybe this industry, technology and the environmental aspects and impacts of it is all too much for you to comprehend? Maybe that should be the the writing on the wall for you to give up and let some smarter and more forward looking people deal with such an important impact on our environment? If you are so deeply involved and still cannot understand what is takes and what is at stake then you just simply failed.