Emergency Victoria @ Area SFAB Mtg Re: 2018 Chinook - May 4/18

[Che]

It really comes down to if you

Can go fishing or not.

If sport fishing was opened and unfettered there would be no beefing from most angler groups. They would be as quiet a rat peeing on cotton. But when they see aboriginal groups, exercising a constitutional right which gives these groups preferred and primary access to a scarce resource, they get jealous. They get jealous because these damned indians are catching fish which in their opinions they don't deserve. It has nothing to do with conservation. Its straight up racism and jealousy, and it comes from a lot of ignorance towards aboriginal groups in BC and Canada as a whole. It's got to stop.

 

[wildmanyeah]

Can go fishing or not.

If sport fishing was opened and unfettered there would be no beefing from most angler groups. They would be as quiet a rat peeing on cotton. But when they see aboriginal groups, exercising a constitutional right which gives these groups preferred and primary access to a scarce resource, they get jealous. They get jealous because these damned indians are catching fish which in their opinions they don't deserve. It has nothing to do with conservation. Its straight up racism and jealousy, and it comes from a lot of ignorance towards aboriginal groups in BC and Canada as a whole. It's got to stop.

I agree it’s partly jealousy because some see it as unfair and outside of Canadian morals to give one group access over another. Specially if you were born up as a millennial and thought that everyone is equal, with equal rights and access.

A lot of people think is not fair that nestle extracts water and pays nothing for it. No one is accusing them or their accusers of racism because the government has given corporations the right to do so.

Your bringing race in to an argument where it’s not about race but about priority access.

I stared before that I would stop fishing for salmon for the next 8 years if it ment everyone did.

I have easily 50 years left to fish ids be okay if we did not fish for salmon for 20 years if it ment stocks would recover.

I get alittle pissed of tho when I see no recovery in site. Nets on the river for endangered stocks means no recovery in sight.

I think you need to spend more time of the Fraser river from mission to hope to know what I’m talking about. We are not talking about a few gillnets here we’re talking about 700.

We’re not talking about a few set nets too the Katize in maple ridge drift fish the Fraser with commercial fishing vessels.

 

[Che]

I'm well aware of aboriginal fishing in the Fraser river.

It is a constitutionally protected right.

Understanding where that right comes from, and why its there, would probably take a whole semester in some university's history class to try to wrap people's heads around. So instead of jealously whining about Aboriginal peoples and their rights, let's whine about the use of open water fish farms, and the harms they do to juvenile migrating salmon.

 

[scott craven]

I'm well aware of aboriginal fishing in the Fraser river.

It is a constitutionally protected right.

And thus the problem, the right exceeds the availability of the fish !

 

[fishin_magician]

Che— it’s clear that you’re native. If you’re not, you’re a sh$t disturber. If you are Native, your attitude is precisely what all the other groups love to hate about you. Wagging rights in front of everyone when in fact your attitude is that makes you holier than everyone else.

The issue is, Natives have successfully manipulated and gamed the government, courts and DFO into selling the farm.

Aboriginals almost always used to fish a subsistence fishery. Not a race based commercial fishery which authorities do not supervise, prosecute and tolerate.

Fact is...and question is...tell me what does a band need with several thousand Chinook or hundreds of thousands of Sockeye?

Why do many Native Chiefs earn several hundred thousands of dollars and how are Natives entitled to free fish which they sell to buy new pick up trucks valued at $50-100k?

What are Natives going to sacrifice to help SRKW and help salmon stocks recover on the Fraser?

My household won’t kill 20 Chinooks for the table this year but entire reserves will kill that many per person and several hundred Sockeye per person—-more like thousands.

This thread isn’t about rights....it’s about salmon conservation.

 

[ziggy]

No one has the Constitutional right to decimate a species. First Nations have first crack at any fish that EXCEED the number required to sustain the stock, but only after those numbers are met. The only race I see here is the race to extinguish a species, no one is innocent in this regard, it’s been going on for 60 years I know of. Until all groups realize we are talking a common resource and it’s no longer acceptable to claim the “other guys” are responsible and demand they change and we just carry on, I see little hope frankly! All user groups need to cooperate to make the changes necessary for the fishery to survive and admit conservation trumps anyone’s right to the fish.

 

[Whitebuck]

2$ a lb for endangered Fraser Chinook....
Hard to see Fraser problems from a glass house on Vancouver island.
Che....much like my friends in the upper Fraser who only use traditional methods. They have a MAJOR problem with the genocide on the lower Fraser. So it’s not just a race problem, When other First Nations are calling out the lower Fraser bands, there is a problem that needs to be addressed, until then keep your head in the sand.

 

[wildmanyeah]

Che— it’s clear that you’re native. If you’re not, you’re a sh$t disturber. If you are Native, your attitude is precisely what all the other groups love to hate about you. Wagging rights in front of everyone when in fact your attitude is that makes you holier than everyone else.

The issue is, Natives have successfully manipulated and gamed the government, courts and DFO into selling the farm.

Aboriginals almost always used to fish a subsistence fishery. Not a race based commercial fishery which authorities do not supervise, prosecute and tolerate.

Fact is...and question is...tell me what does a band need with several thousand Chinook or hundreds of thousands of Sockeye?

Why do many Native Chiefs earn several hundred thousands of dollars and how are Natives entitled to free fish which they sell to buy new pick up trucks valued at $50-100k?

What are Natives going to sacrifice to help SRKW and help salmon stocks recover on the Fraser?

My household won’t kill 20 Chinooks for the table this year but entire reserves will kill that many per person and several hundred Sockeye per person—-more like thousands.

This thread isn’t about rights....it’s about salmon conservation.

150 thousand for Fraser River Sockeye in 2016 for FSC.

 

[Whitebuck]

Ha! And these are reported catches lol. The actual numbers are probably close to triple.
With lower catch rates it =more openings

 

[Che]

Che— it’s clear that you’re native. If you’re not, you’re a sh$t disturber.

LMAO. Yeah no, I'm neither. But good strawman arguing here.

If you are Native, your attitude is precisely what all the other groups love to hate about you. Wagging rights in front of everyone when in fact your attitude is that makes you holier than everyone else.

At least you're upfront about your racist attitudes towards Aboriginal people.

The issue is, Natives have successfully manipulated and gamed the government, courts and DFO into selling the farm.

Have you read R v Sparrow? Delgamuukw v British Columbia? R. v. N.T.C. Smokehouse Ltd.?

Not just a wikipedia article, or the case brief. But actually read the entire decisions? They're available online, if you haven't. I have. You should too. Things will make more sense for you when you get informed on the topic. Don't just go by what some subject matter expert told you and your own emotions. Read up and get informed, try understand where this concept of Aboriginal Title and Right comes from, and why it's so important.

Aboriginal groups fishing is NOT the cause of salmon stock declines. Habitat loss and increased predators on juveniles has a much greater impact than nets do. When there are seals eating 250'000+ smolts in the cowichan river estuary alone those numbers make a big impact on the returning populations. When eel grass beds have been destroyed up and down the coast, giving nowhere for smolts to hide from cormorants birds it makes a big impact on the returning populations. When open water salmon farms have thousands of fish penned up, full of lice and juvenile fish are migrating by, it makes a big impact on returning populations. Those juvenile fish never grow up to be adult fish. Nobody can catch them if they never get the chance to grow.

But its far far easier to just be a racist and to blame Aboriginal fishing for declining salmon stocks.

 

[wildmanyeah]

When there are seals eating 250'000+ smolts in the cowichan river estuary alone those numbers make a big impact on the returning populations. When eel grass beds have been destroyed up and down the coast, giving nowhere for smolts to hide from cormorants birds it makes a big impact on the returning populations. When open water salmon farms have thousands of fish penned up, full of lice and juvenile fish are migrating by, it makes a big impact on returning populations. Those juvenile fish never grow up to be adult fish. Nobody can catch them if they never get the chance to grow.

These things have been extensively covered on this forum about a billion times over. Yes they have been identified as a cause to diminishing salmon and more importantly warm ocean currents and the blob.

However the government despite 10 billion letters i've sent them about all the issues mention, The stream keepers and volunteer hatcheries ive took part in we still find out selves in the same situation.

Lower Fraser river tribs have higher survival rates and lower fishing pressure. I am not here to argue about SPARROW that decision is what it is Or the more recent one that put first nations commercial harvest in front of recreational fisheries. That is what it is.

Perhaps the Cowichan returns will pick up and FN harvest will open back up and you will get to see what that does.

 

[Che]

I am not here to argue about SPARROW that decision is what it is Or the more recent one that put first nations commercial harvest in front of recreational fisheries. That is what it is.

So you've never read it. Which is a shame. Please do, it will help you understand these rights much better, and hopefully your racist attitude towards Aboriginal fishing will change.

 

[Che]

When you haven't read the major court decisions about the very topic you're arguing about, it only shows your ignorance. My friend, I'm not spitting in your oatmeal here. I would like you to go and read these decisions. It will help your understanding of the situation a bit better.

The jealous and racist attitudes that so many sport fishers have towards aboriginal people needs to stop. These people are not our 'enemies.' We all have the same goals here, enough fish for everyone for ever.

 

[Aces]

When you haven't read the major court decisions about the very topic you're arguing about, it only shows your ignorance. My friend, I'm not spitting in your oatmeal here. I would like you to go and read these decisions. It will help your understanding of the situation a bit better.

The jealous and racist attitudes that so many sport fishers have towards aboriginal people needs to stop. These people are not our 'enemies.' We all have the same goals here, enough fish for everyone for ever.

Congrats, your attempt to troll this forum has been successful

 

[wildmanyeah]

The jealous and racist attitudes that so many sport fishers have towards aboriginal people needs to stop. These people are not our 'enemies.' We all have the same goals here, enough fish for everyone for ever.

Clueless....

 

[california]

When you haven't read the major court decisions about the very topic you're arguing about, it only shows your ignorance. My friend, I'm not spitting in your oatmeal here. I would like you to go and read these decisions. It will help your understanding of the situation a bit better. The jealous and racist attitudes that so many sport fishers have towards aboriginal people needs to stop. These people are not our 'enemies.' We all have the same goals here, enough fish for everyone for ever.

You are completely correct in the interpretations of the major court cases in that native rights and title are recognized. While some posters complain about there being two classes of Canadians when fishing (and other considerations) it is a reality upheld in the courts and really not worth complaining about. Is it racist to express your disagreement? Maybe from some posters, but not from most. However, if you have read the major court decisions as you claim you have, including the recent one involving the Nu-Chah-Nulth you would know that conservation is still the primary consideration to be determined by DFO, and recognized by those courts over FN food and ceremonial, sport or non commercial. This primary conservation consideration is what appears to be being ignored by allowing FN fisheries on critically low runs of Fraser spring chinooks. Furthermore if you deny the rampant illegal fishing on the Fraser by FN you are simply disingenuous to the extreme. The Federal government largely turns a blind eye to it while it is their responsibility to ensure it doesn't endanger the runs and doesn't happen. They have the ability to hire more fisheries officers to patrol the river, confiscate nets and/or charge illegal fisherman to protect the resource. They choose not do that and abdicate the conservation responsibility. In comparison to the money thrown at Atlantic province fisheries such as the $400 million atlantic fisheries fund, the investment in enforcement here would be minimal. Certainly I am not denying the FN right to access the fish, it has been upheld in the courts. However I do expect DFO to uphold its responsibility to prioritize conservation above those access rights. In that they have, and are failing miserably.

 

[spoiler]

You are completely correct in the interpretations of the major court cases in that native rights and title are recognized. While some posters complain about there being two classes of Canadians when fishing (and other considerations) it is a reality upheld in the courts and really not worth complaining about. Is it racist to express your disagreement? Maybe from some posters, but not from most. However, if you have read the major court decisions as you claim you have, including the recent one involving the Nu-Chah-Nulth you would know that conservation is still the primary consideration to be determined by DFO, and recognized by those courts over FN food and ceremonial, sport or non commercial. This primary conservation consideration is what appears to be being ignored by allowing FN fisheries on critically low runs of Fraser spring chinooks. Furthermore if you deny the rampant illegal fishing on the Fraser by FN you are simply disingenuous to the extreme. The Federal government largely turns a blind eye to it while it is their responsibility to ensure it doesn't endanger the runs and doesn't happen. They have the ability to hire more fisheries officers to patrol the river, confiscate nets and/or charge illegal fisherman to protect the resource. They choose not do that and abdicate the conservation responsibility. In comparison to the money thrown at Atlantic province fisheries such as the $400 million atlantic fisheries fund, the investment in enforcement here would be minimal. Certainly I am not denying the FN right to access the fish, it has been upheld in the courts. However I do expect DFO to uphold its responsibility to prioritize conservation above those access rights. In that they have, and are failing miserably.

California, I have to say you hit the nail on the head with this post! Anyone who lives up the valley like I do knows first hand what's going on on the Fraser as far as illegal fishing with little or no consequences. There is a reason we have laws and as somebody once said "without laws you only have chaos"

 

[SpringVelocity]

I can see reading through the posts last few pages that is unlikely to ever have meaningful discussions with FN groups with the attitude that lingers. That goes on both sides. Were so far apart its scary. Each blame the other but miss the point that its DFO we need to direct our anger too. Salmon are declining and if our groups don't join we are going to spin downhill.

 

[Admin]

Given the heightened tension around the lack of Salmon returns, for a multitude of reasons that continue to be discussed in this forum and many other places as well, it was likely inevitable that this type of exchange was going to happen here. While we are willing to let this topic be part of the broad discussion of why Salmon are in trouble and what may be done to help them rebound, so that everyone who currently enjoys access to this amazing resource will continue to do so for generations to come, we are not willing to have it be a rant born of frustration. To that end, here are some guidelines for keeping this discussion alive while understanding that it will be heavily moderated.
Discussions that revolve around First Nation's rights that are firmly entrenched in the Canadian Constitution are a non starter. That debate happened a long time ago and isn't going to be regurgitated here. At the same time, we are not going to simply expect everyone to pretend that the history of Canada does not include immigrants from a multitude of countries, that also have rights entrenched in that same Constitution.
As has been mentioned in other threads before, using this forum to vent your frustration and paint everyone in a certain "community" with the same brush will result in removal of content. If their is illegal activity happening, report it to the proper authorities. If you want to use this forum to promote a campaign for change, as in a petition or flooding the politicians with emails demanding something be done to stem any illegal activity, you are welcome to do so. However, simply ranting about what may be happening will only inflame a useless discussion and won't be tolerated.
Sharing your thoughts in a way that directly states, or implies, that "all" or "most" members of any community are "this" or "that" or, do "this" or "that" is simply ridiculous and will result in such posts being removed immediately. These generalizations are one of the main reasons this constant bickering and taking "sides" on an issue result in nothing but fights and little productive change where it is needed most...saving this precious resource from extinction.
As mentioned, the content posted on this topic will be heavily moderated from here on in and editing, removal of posts and potential banning of members will be used where necessary, to keep this conversation civil and moving in a direction that may help everyone's right to access this resource and keep us from fighting for the right to catch the last remaining Salmon. Pulling together instead of pushing each other away might just be the right thing to do.

 

[Aces]

West Coast charter business for sale. Apply within