Driving an EV pickup

[sly_karma]

Lots of claims about EV depreciation being higher than comparable ICE. I thought I'd look at the estimated value loss for F150 in Lightning and gas versions. I used the Autotrader.ca website to look up new pricing and current used value. I used Supercrew cab and 5.5 ft box as search terms since that is the only box and cab configuration offered in Lightning. I looked at the high used value for both gas and EV trucks.

2023 Lightning XLT: new MSRP $69,000; used w/60,000 km: $42.453; depreciation: 38%
2023 gas F150 XLT: new MSRP $59,125; used 2/60,000 km: $37,161; depreciation: 37%

This website wasn't sufficiently granular to show options such as the 3.7L EcoBoost drivetrain, or other comfort and convenience options included with the Lightning that added thousands more to gas F150 new price. Nonetheless, it seems there's no uptick in depreciation percentage for Lightning owners compared to gas power (ie, the usual big hit as you drive off the lot seems to apply fairly evenly).

Here's the good news: ongoing ownership cost. My own figures for 57,700 km driven as of end of October:
Charging costs (total of home and public charging): $2287
Est. gas cost (based on 15L/100 km, Stats Can avg monthly gas price): $13,304
Energy savings: $11,017

Oil changes (5 @ $150): $750
Brake pads and rotors: $1250
Maintenance savings: $2000

So over two-and-a-bit years, I'm about $13,000 in front on energy and maintenance by going electric. More fun to drive, no emissions, cheaper to run. They don't fit every situation, but there's no downside for me.

 

[kaelc]

How are the battery replacements looking for lightenings? Important for used buyers but likely not important for new buyers.

It looks like its easy for Nissan leafs but a nightmare for Tesla 3’s, I think they are basically going to be written off. Forgive me if I already asked. This week it looks like Rad bikes is going out of business due to their battery recall order from the US government.

 

[zurk]

all my boats are 100% lithium as are my scooty, ebikes, lawnmower etc. but my cars are 100% gas. maybe when its just as easy to swap out batteries from the car as easily as I can on my boats i'll convert em over, probably get a PHEV though and hedge my bets. depreciation technically doesnt matter if you keep your vehicles for 20+ years like i do. my 05 mazda just completed 20 this year and still runs like new at a whopping 290K on its original v6 engine (and the same 700km of range it started with on day 1). will a lightning do it after 20 years on the same battery ? idk but i doubt it.

 

[Max123]

I'm curious - brakes an rotors at 60k would be about average for an ICE vehicle, but I've heard that most EV brakes last much much longer because of regen braking? Most commonly, its the calipers that fail due to lack of use and corrosion (basically needs new slide pins). Was that the case here - or do you attribute the higher wear rate to something else?

Also, is there anything unique about the brakes on an EV that would prevent you from working on it yourself? I don't think I've paid anyone to do my brakes in over 20 years.

 

[Max123]

How are the battery replacements looking for lightenings? Important for used buyers but likely not important for new buyers.

It looks like its easy for Nissan leafs but a nightmare for Tesla 3’s, I think they are basically going to be written off. Forgive me if I already asked. This week it looks like Rad bikes is going out of business due to their battery recall order from the US government.

I saw the announcement about RAD bikes - that sucks. I don't particularly love their bikes, but huge respect for what they accomplished (basically mass producing a cheap / good ebike). Sucks because they didn't manufacture the battery, and it was UL certified. They are basically taking the hit for someone else's mistake.

I'd really like to see bike manufacturer's switch over to using generic battery packs, and just selling you the bike. I can't wait for the day when you can click in a Milkwaukee M18 battery under the seat... - In reality it would likely involve manufacturer's agreeing to a specific battery downtube detail.

 

[sly_karma]

I'm curious - brakes an rotors at 60k would be about average for an ICE vehicle, but I've heard that most EV brakes last much much longer because of regen braking? Most commonly, its the calipers that fail due to lack of use and corrosion (basically needs new slide pins). Was that the case here - or do you attribute the higher wear rate to something else?

Also, is there anything unique about the brakes on an EV that would prevent you from working on it yourself? I don't think I've paid anyone to do my brakes in over 20 years.

The line in my post about brakes was indicating a cost I would have paid if I'd bought ICE instead of EV. The Lightning original brake pads are still at 10-11 mm as they are rarely used in normal driving. As to the issue of calipers seizing up due to no use, Ford's one pedal mode has the brakes actuate every time you stop - there's no forward creep at a traffic light even with feet off pedals. A certain amount of pressure on the accelerator triggers brake release and off you go. The pad wear is minimal because brakes are just holding the halted vehicle in place, but the calipers are opening and closing which addresses the seizing concerns. Best of both worlds, pretty clever.

The caliper and pads are normal F-150 equipment.

 

[sly_karma]

How are the battery replacements looking for lightenings? Important for used buyers but likely not important for new buyers.

It looks like its easy for Nissan leafs but a nightmare for Tesla 3’s, I think they are basically going to be written off. Forgive me if I already asked. This week it looks like Rad bikes is going out of business due to their battery recall order from the US government.

all my boats are 100% lithium as are my scooty, ebikes, lawnmower etc. but my cars are 100% gas. maybe when its just as easy to swap out batteries from the car as easily as I can on my boats i'll convert em over, probably get a PHEV though and hedge my bets. depreciation technically doesnt matter if you keep your vehicles for 20+ years like i do. my 05 mazda just completed 20 this year and still runs like new at a whopping 290K on its original v6 engine (and the same 700km of range it started with on day 1). will a lightning do it after 20 years on the same battery ? idk but i doubt it.

Range remaining is a vague thing on an EV, as has been discussed in this thread. I almost never charge to 100%, but when I did so a couple of times last summer ahead of a road trip, the GOM was reading 370-380 km. Official factory spec says 385 km. Is this some early range loss due to battery degradation? I can't really say, all it takes a few degrees warmer or cooler and range estimate changes. Plus/minus 10 km is meaningless unless you take readings at same temp every time and have done the same driving pattern previous to parking. I know I won't see those >370 km numbers until next summer unless I park it in a heated garage and precondition the battery.

Some Lightning owners have used an OBD2 dongle and software like Forscan or ABRP to access battery health monitor. I should try that and see what the report says. Based on the data I've seen so far, I should expect about 2-3% capacity reduction at this stage. That would mean as much as 11 km of theoretical range lost.

What I do know is there's no practical loss detectable. We still make it from Whistler to Cache Creek for mid trip charging, and on to Penticton without a second stop. Penticton to Hope still works, cushion at arrival not visibly diminished. I haven't priced a battery switch, as it still has almost 6 years of warranty remaining. Same as most ICE owners wouldn't bother to price an engine or a transmission during warranty period.

 

[kaelc]

Range remaining is a vague thing on an EV, as has been discussed in this thread. I almost never charge to 100%, but when I did so a couple of times last summer ahead of a road trip, the GOM was reading 370-380 km. Official factory spec says 385 km. Is this some early range loss due to battery degradation? I can't really say, all it takes a few degrees warmer or cooler and range estimate changes. Plus/minus 10 km is meaningless unless you take readings at same temp every time and have done the same driving pattern previous to parking. I know I won't see those >370 km numbers until next summer unless I park it in a heated garage and precondition the battery.

Some Lightning owners have used an OBD2 dongle and software like Forscan or ABRP to access battery health monitor. I should try that and see what the report says. Based on the data I've seen so far, I should expect about 2-3% capacity reduction at this stage. That would mean as much as 11 km of theoretical range lost.

What I do know is there's no practical loss detectable. We still make it from Whistler to Cache Creek for mid trip charging, and on to Penticton without a second stop. Penticton to Hope still works, cushion at arrival not visibly diminished. I haven't priced a battery switch, as it still has almost 6 years of warranty remaining. Same as most ICE owners wouldn't bother to price an engine or a transmission during warranty period.

Yeah, most engine replacements write off vehicles. It is nice to see easy swaps on Nissan leafs but with advancements in batteries hopefully most won’t need them. AI makes it sounds like it’s a write off if the battery needs replacement out of warranty.

For a Ford F-150 Lightning, the big high‑voltage traction battery is not easy to replace in a DIY sense; it is a complex, shop-only job that needs heavy equipment and EV-trained technicians, even more so than a Leaf because the pack is larger and heavier.[1][2][3]

## What the job involves

- The Lightning’s main pack sits in the frame under the cab/bed and can weigh around 1,800 lb on extended‑range models, so removal requires a lift plus a heavy-duty powertrain jack and proper high‑voltage safety procedures.[2][1]
- Ford’s service guides emphasize that the pack remains live and dangerous even after disconnecting the service plug, so only qualified techs with specialized training and insulated tools are supposed to work on it.[4][2]

## Time and repair complexity

- Professional battery replacement is usually scheduled as a multi‑day job because of the weight, the number of high‑voltage and cooling connections, and the need for post‑install checks and software procedures.[1][2]
- Owners on Lightning forums report their trucks being in the shop from days to weeks, mainly waiting on parts, even though the actual physical swap is a relatively small portion of the total time.[5][6]

## Cost considerations

- Parts cost for a full Lightning traction pack is very high: Ford’s catalog pricing shows roughly the high‑twenties (USD) for a standard‑range pack and mid‑thirties for an extended‑range pack, before labor and taxes.[7][3]
- When a single module fails, dealers may sometimes replace only bad modules rather than the whole pack, but availability and policy vary and it can still mean the truck is down for an extended period.[6][5]

## 12V battery vs traction pack

- As with the Leaf, the small 12V battery in the frunk is easy to swap and is comparable to changing a 12V in a conventional truck, often done in minutes with basic tools.[8]
- The large high‑voltage traction pack that powers the truck is the one that is difficult and expensive to replace and is never treated as a casual DIY job.[3][2][1]

Sources
[1] Ford F-150 Lightning Battery Replacement - Greentec Auto https://greentecauto.com/product-category/ford/f-150-lightning/
[2] 2021-2025 F-150 Hybrid Battery Removal Guide https://www.fordservicecontent.com/...12025F150HybridBatteryRemovalGuideMCS7275.pdf
[3] THIS is how much it costs to replace the Battery in the F- ...

[4] How-to remove your F-150 Lightning battery pack https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...-to-remove-your-f-150-lightning-battery-pack/
[5] Ford F-150 Lightning TOTAL Battery Failure - Buyer Beware

[6] My 2023 Lightning Lariat is getting a battery pack replacement! https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...-is-getting-a-battery-pack-replacement.18257/
[7] This Is How Much It Costs To Change A Ford EV Battery https://www.topspeed.com/how-much-costs-change-ford-ev-battery/
[8] Ford F-150 Lightning - 12V Battery Install (Ohmmu)

[9] 2021 https://elvsolutions.org/wp-content...-150-Hybrid-Battery-Removal-Guide-12-8-20.pdf
[10] Ford F-150 Lightning Battery Replacement Cost Estimate https://repairpal.com/estimator/ford/f-150-lightning/battery-replacement-cost

 

[sly_karma]

Yeah, most engine replacements write off vehicles. It is nice to see easy swaps on Nissan leafs but with advancements in batteries hopefully most won’t need them. AI makes it sounds like it’s a write off if the battery needs replacement out of warranty.

For a Ford F-150 Lightning, the big high‑voltage traction battery is not easy to replace in a DIY sense; it is a complex, shop-only job that needs heavy equipment and EV-trained technicians, even more so than a Leaf because the pack is larger and heavier.[1][2][3]

## What the job involves

- The Lightning’s main pack sits in the frame under the cab/bed and can weigh around 1,800 lb on extended‑range models, so removal requires a lift plus a heavy-duty powertrain jack and proper high‑voltage safety procedures.[2][1]
- Ford’s service guides emphasize that the pack remains live and dangerous even after disconnecting the service plug, so only qualified techs with specialized training and insulated tools are supposed to work on it.[4][2]

## Time and repair complexity

- Professional battery replacement is usually scheduled as a multi‑day job because of the weight, the number of high‑voltage and cooling connections, and the need for post‑install checks and software procedures.[1][2]
- Owners on Lightning forums report their trucks being in the shop from days to weeks, mainly waiting on parts, even though the actual physical swap is a relatively small portion of the total time.[5][6]

## Cost considerations

- Parts cost for a full Lightning traction pack is very high: Ford’s catalog pricing shows roughly the high‑twenties (USD) for a standard‑range pack and mid‑thirties for an extended‑range pack, before labor and taxes.[7][3]
- When a single module fails, dealers may sometimes replace only bad modules rather than the whole pack, but availability and policy vary and it can still mean the truck is down for an extended period.[6][5]

## 12V battery vs traction pack

- As with the Leaf, the small 12V battery in the frunk is easy to swap and is comparable to changing a 12V in a conventional truck, often done in minutes with basic tools.[8]
- The large high‑voltage traction pack that powers the truck is the one that is difficult and expensive to replace and is never treated as a casual DIY job.[3][2][1]

Sources
[1] Ford F-150 Lightning Battery Replacement - Greentec Auto https://greentecauto.com/product-category/ford/f-150-lightning/
[2] 2021-2025 F-150 Hybrid Battery Removal Guide https://www.fordservicecontent.com/...12025F150HybridBatteryRemovalGuideMCS7275.pdf
[3] THIS is how much it costs to replace the Battery in the F- ...

[4] How-to remove your F-150 Lightning battery pack https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...-to-remove-your-f-150-lightning-battery-pack/
[5] Ford F-150 Lightning TOTAL Battery Failure - Buyer Beware

[6] My 2023 Lightning Lariat is getting a battery pack replacement! https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...-is-getting-a-battery-pack-replacement.18257/
[7] This Is How Much It Costs To Change A Ford EV Battery https://www.topspeed.com/how-much-costs-change-ford-ev-battery/
[8] Ford F-150 Lightning - 12V Battery Install (Ohmmu)

[9] 2021 https://elvsolutions.org/wp-content...-150-Hybrid-Battery-Removal-Guide-12-8-20.pdf
[10] Ford F-150 Lightning Battery Replacement Cost Estimate https://repairpal.com/estimator/ford/f-150-lightning/battery-replacement-cost

In most Tesla models, the battery pack is a structural component of the vehicle, so changing it out is very difficult. The intent is that the battery will last for the life of the vehicle, and there's plenty of data out there to show that owners can expect decades of service from these cars. Lots of Teslas being used as taxi/Uber vehicles, lots of them up over half a million km and still on original battery, motors and brakes.

And a study of owners reporting at 320,000 km shows 15% of battery capacity loss. That's 20 years of driving for an average Canadian.

Average Tesla Model 3, Model Y Battery Degradation After 200,000 Miles Impresses https://share.google/PUEJeQcjkD5Sd4hqR

 

[kaelc]

In most Tesla models, the battery pack is a structural component of the vehicle, so changing it out is very difficult. The intent is that the battery will last for the life of the vehicle, and there's plenty of data out there to show that owners can expect decades of service from these cars. Lots of Teslas being used as taxi/Uber vehicles, lots of them up over half a million km and still on original battery, motors and brakes.

And a study of owners reporting at 320,000 km shows 15% of battery capacity loss. That's 20 years of driving for an average Canadian.

Average Tesla Model 3, Model Y Battery Degradation After 200,000 Miles Impresses https://share.google/PUEJeQcjkD5Sd4hqR

Hmmmm, I don't trust Tesla, or any other car manufacturer, with the post-warranty reliability of their products. Ford extended their warranty for their 2016-2019 def heaters, but skipped the 2015 despite having the same part number. Chevrolet used to make claims about their bedliners that they charged in their warranty manual after I sued them.

Definitely, they are going to perform well on warranty when being driven a ton by uber drivers. I don't think there is much data on the cheaper 3/Y as they are just coming off warranty now? One YouTube survey had a 7.4% failure rate, but no tracking of the years they failed in; it could have included old Model Ss from California, where the heat was more of an issue on the old batteries, and it was not a randomized study.

These old model S with unlimited supercharging appeal to me, since my office has a supercharger and my house is a 20-minute walk from one. 20k for free gas and luxury. Trips to Tofino and Courtenay where I often want to travel too would be a breeze.

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[TMan]

Hey there. At one point work was thinking we needed EVs. We carry a fair bit of gear. New Silverado i don't think can have a proper canopy on it. Lightning might go away. Haven't seen a ERam yet.....so....Getting the right vehicle may be tough. Are there any hybrid or electric cargo vans with all wheel drive in the North American market? If so, any experience with them? I was thinking about van might be more practical. Especially for working closer to town.

 

[Tomfoolery]

I saw the announcement about RAD bikes - that sucks. I don't particularly love their bikes, but huge respect for what they accomplished (basically mass producing a cheap / good ebike). Sucks because they didn't manufacture the battery, and it was UL certified. They are basically taking the hit for someone else's mistake.

I'd really like to see bike manufacturer's switch over to using generic battery packs, and just selling you the bike. I can't wait for the day when you can click in a Milkwaukee M18 battery under the seat... - In reality it would likely involve manufacturer's agreeing to a specific battery downtube detail.

Late to the party but from what I understand, RAD had systemic issues within the company and the battery issue pushed them over the cliff. Essentially, they were subsidizing cheaper bike prices by burning through huge amounts of investment dollars which eventually caught up with them post covid. It sucks because RAD was, well, rad in revolutionizing the e-bike industry and bringing e-bikes in at an affordable price point that your everyday consumer could afford. I have talked with local bike shop owners about RAD and it is a double edged sword for them. RAD brought awareness to the market segment but also undercut a lot of other products by a large amount, in the end unrealistically it seems.

 

[chris73]

Hey there. At one point work was thinking we needed EVs. We carry a fair bit of gear. New Silverado i don't think can have a proper canopy on it. Lightning might go away. Haven't seen a ERam yet.....so....Getting the right vehicle may be tough. Are there any hybrid or electric cargo vans with all wheel drive in the North American market? If so, any experience with them? I was thinking about van might be more practical. Especially for working closer to town.

Ford makes the Ford-E-Transit. We have several at work. Useful and spacious but the drivers complain that their battery is a bit small. Hopefully the next version will address this.

 

[TMan]

Ford makes the Ford-E-Transit. We have several at work. Useful and spacious but the drivers complain that their battery is a bit small. Hopefully the next version will address this.

Thanks for the info.

 

[sly_karma]

Hey there. At one point work was thinking we needed EVs. We carry a fair bit of gear. New Silverado i don't think can have a proper canopy on it. Lightning might go away. Haven't seen a ERam yet.....so....Getting the right vehicle may be tough. Are there any hybrid or electric cargo vans with all wheel drive in the North American market? If so, any experience with them? I was thinking about van might be more practical. Especially for working closer to town.

My feeling is Ford will continue with an EV truck, whether it continues to be called Lightning or not. The new platform in development gives more options for cab and box configurations, larger battery, SUV body styles. And less expensive to build as well.

The biggest drawback for the current Lightning as a work truck is the short box. I've never had a 5.5 ft box and I would never have voluntarily chosen this one, but it's all they're offering. The frunk helps a lot, I keep tools up front so the box is normally empty, but that none of that can make 16 ft lumber any shorter.

As mentioned by @chris73 , Ford does have the e-transit vans in several configurations, but they're all single motor; ie, not AWD. This is less of a drawback than it would be in the ICE versions, since the battery pack evens out the weight between driving and steering wheels, and electric drive offers much more sophisticated traction control at minor cost because it's mostly software. The large battery option is just 89 kWh, not that large for a big boxy shape that will lose a lot of energy to drag. Stated range is 260 km.

It comes down to use: if they're running around town/city streets and into the rural fringes a bit, that range is plenty for a day's work. But get on the freeway and drive say from downtown out to Chilliwack and back, you might not quite make that 200 km round trip without a brief stop at a fast charger. Speed is the enemy: drag force at 80 km/h doubles at 110 km/h. It's not like you'll be stranded on the roadside, metro Vancouver has loads of DCFC plugs close to the freeway, but it would get old quickly if it was happening frequently. But if the operating area is compact with only short bursts of freeway work, e-transit would be a good solution. Low speed city driving is the most fuel-thirsty, tough-on-equipment assignment there is for an ICE truck or van. The savings in energy, maintenance and downtime by electrifying would be significant.

There are 2022/23 used Lightnings available, still well inside the 8 year battery warranty. If work wanted to dip a toe into the EV format, that could be an option.

 

[casper5280]

For anyone following the Edison Motor builds. I really think this is the way to go. Hybrid Electric trucks. Generator that charges the truck thus taking the range out of the equation. plus the motor/generator runs at the most efficient rpms. drive motors are in the axles so no drive line putting the batteries between the frame. By doing that you can have a full size box. They are still testing but have a few trucks sold to market more as a test platform. They are more geared to the big equipment trucks but have partnered with Deboss Garage and he is making reto fit kits for pickups. surprised one of the big auto companies aren't going this way. I know there was some government hurdles that Edison motors faced, but they went to Ottawa and met with government officials and got legislation changed so they could move forward building trucks. For anyone who hasn't heard to them, its a very interesting startup company from a BC company in Golden BC.

 

[sly_karma]

I thought Edison were out of Merritt?

 

[casper5280]

Merritt would not work with them to get a suitable long term lease. They then were approached by the city of Golden and bought 300 acres near Donald for its new manufacturing and testing facility. the land was a mill site. they have already built a 2 KM test track.

 

[sly_karma]

The core idea behind their EV logging truck concept is simple genius: every load of logs picked up from a mountainside is potential energy about to be turned into kinetic energy. Regen going down to the mill not only pushes energy into the battery, it also deals with most of the braking issues and makes a dangerous job a lot safer.

 

[kaelc]

Coming down the cut tonight in North Vancouver can confirm the regen braking is a nice feature my next truck better have. Dam Tesla just stopped in the fast lane, and last night a black Tesla involved in an accident on highway one just sitting across two lanes of traffic unable to limp off. I was a huge fan of teslas but between Mr Ournextcarisgoigtofly and the ride of Toyota Grand Highlander, I’m back to hoping Ford comes out with a diesel electric hybrid HD. They might just have one by 2035 when I can afford to get a new truck again. Hope you are hitting opening week on the slops with that Lightening @sly_karma