Strangers in a Strange Land - 3 unidentified Orcas spotted in Vancouver Harbour
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kaelc
Crew Member
I missed this! Love it. So much easier to read a thread with the noise gone.
IronNoggin is a gentleman and scholar.
scott craven
Well-Known Member
Ever thought it may just be a metaphor for "steelhead"
"The anadromous form of the coastal rainbow trout"
adamcu280
Member
I'm not sure what gun you're referring to. I'm talking about the .50 cal that DFO mounted by Seymour Narrows in 1960 or 1961. Dr. John Ford (one of the pioneers of killer whale research in BC with dozens of hours on the water; not sure of his halibut credentials) talks about it here: https://www.castanet.net/news/BC/124199/Machine-gun-for-killer-whales
Edit: a bit more history here https://thetyee.ca/Life/2008/05/13/... end, the fishermen,and hated along the coast.
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IronNoggin
Well-Known Member
Dont think @IronNoggin is a they/them
Gawd I Hope NOT!!!
baddogg
Crew Member
Maybe you are and just don't know it Matt!!!!!!
adamcu280
Member
Some nice photos and an update on T419, T420, and T421 from yesterday.
Most interesting is the report that they’re apparently associating with some of our local Ts. It’d be very cool to get a biopsy or a scat sample from these new visitors to see how related they are to known west coast Ts. None of our west coast Ts have cookie cutter bites that I know of and it’s also rare to have interactions between populations; there’s usually indifference, avoidance, or on rare occasions aggression when different populations cross paths.
Goes to show that there’s always more to learn.
Most interesting is the report that they’re apparently associating with some of our local Ts. It’d be very cool to get a biopsy or a scat sample from these new visitors to see how related they are to known west coast Ts. None of our west coast Ts have cookie cutter bites that I know of and it’s also rare to have interactions between populations; there’s usually indifference, avoidance, or on rare occasions aggression when different populations cross paths.
Goes to show that there’s always more to learn.
Howzer
Well-Known Member
"...it’s also rare to have interactions between populations; there’s usually indifference, avoidance, or on rare occasions aggression when different populations cross paths."
While that may be generally true, it stands to reason that occasionally, when meeting, in an instinctual need to reinvigorate the gene pool, a mating occurrence could happen. There's much we do not know.
While that may be generally true, it stands to reason that occasionally, when meeting, in an instinctual need to reinvigorate the gene pool, a mating occurrence could happen. There's much we do not know.
adamcu280
Member
Genetically speaking there's ~350,000 - 700,000 years of divergence between Bigg's and resident/fish eaters, with the North Pacific residents being more closely related to Atlantic fish eaters than they are to the Bigg's that they share the same waters with.
Deeper dive on killer whale genetics here: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/...ised-taxonomy-of-eastern-North-Pacific-killer
There's far less information telling the difference between the mammal-eating populations in the North Pacific which is why these "new" animals, with their presumed origins from a different mammal-eating population than the west coast Bigg's (presumed origin based on the presence of CC bites), mixing it up with known west coast Bigg's is particularly interesting.
There's much we do not know and there's always more to learn. Sounds like we're on the same page! Speaking of pages, here are links to catalogues of some of the various mammal eaters in the Eastern North Pacific.
Catalogue of Gulf of AK Ts (some CC bites): https://www.whalesalaska.org/_files/ugd/d07eba_7329bc107ad24bc4bcce66e42e56c882.pdf
Catalogue of West Coast Ts (no CC bites): https://www.researchgate.net/publication/398258949_Photo-identification_Catalogue_and_Status_of_the_Coastal_Subset_of_the_West_Coast_Transient_Population_of_Bigg's_Killer_Whale_in_British_Columbia_Canada
Catalogue of Outer Coast Ts (the OCX group has CC bites): https://repository.library.noaa.gov/view/noaa/30740
Edit: we know from captive animals that the various ecotypes can interbreed and produce viable offspring.
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SpringFever2359
Well-Known Member
This^^
Super pods have been seen many times over the yrs, I've witnessed one myself up in Discovery Passage
adamcu280
Member
Not really. The important distinction is that super pods are the same population mixing! For example, a bunch of SRKW or NRKW or a T party could be a super pod (and a super pod generally refers to specific social behavior when whales meet and mix up, not just whales traveling together).
However, you’re not going to see mixing between different populations. That behavior is not supported by over 50 years of observation in the wild nor is it supported by the genetic evidence. Edit: this is why the new group mixing with the known group is exciting. The whales obviously know more than we do about each other.
Edit: one might think that Bigg’s, being mammal eaters, are the tough ones but in the couple of observations where they have interacted with SRKW, the SRKW give them the business. Strength in numbers, presumably, and/or perhaps an example of “mobbing” behavior shown by other critters flushing potential predators out of the area.
www.knkx.org
However, you’re not going to see mixing between different populations. That behavior is not supported by over 50 years of observation in the wild nor is it supported by the genetic evidence. Edit: this is why the new group mixing with the known group is exciting. The whales obviously know more than we do about each other.
Edit: one might think that Bigg’s, being mammal eaters, are the tough ones but in the couple of observations where they have interacted with SRKW, the SRKW give them the business. Strength in numbers, presumably, and/or perhaps an example of “mobbing” behavior shown by other critters flushing potential predators out of the area.
Rare clash between two distinct kinds of orcas in the Salish Sea — and the endangered fish-eaters won
Whale watching in the Salish Sea is almost always a thrill. But a recent clash between two species of orcas presented a rare spectacle.
www.knkx.org
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sly_karma
Crew Member
Is there any chance at all that these visitors might convince the picky eater locals to just try a taste of seal?
adamcu280
Member
Per the west coast T catalogue that I linked: there were 571 mammal eaters alive in BC in 2024 and their population is growing at about 4% a year. So there are already more mammal eaters than fish eaters in BC.
Unfortunately there’s little chance of our local fish eaters swapping to seals. It’s not zero - there are some fish eaters in the North Atlantic that do prey switch to seals on occasion - but it’s not known when or why that began.
There are a lot of other things we can do to try and recover the amount of fish besides managing natural predators but managing natural predators has usually been the easy scapegoat option.
A-a-Ron
Well-Known Member
Psychologically trapped
those are the most free creatures this world has to offer.
pescador
Well-Known Member
Little chance? Have you read this article?
Fish-eating orcas switch prey across Alaska foraging hotspots - Oceanographic
Southern Alaska’s orcas have a diverse, seasonal diet of salmon and groundfish, challenging belief that Chinook dominate their prey.
oceanographicmagazine.com
adamcu280
Member
Free doesn't necessarily mean perfect.Psychologically trapped
There are plenty of examples of "free" whales making mistakes, stranding, getting trapped, and/or dying outside of their normal habitats. Here are just a few to take or leave.
Dyes Inlet 19: https://www.pugetsoundinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Timeline.pdf
Coffman Cove, AK (x2!): https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/feat...dents-help-free-two-killer-whales-barnes-lake
Beluga in Puget Sound (maybe the same one that later died in the Gulf of California?): https://www.newsweek.com/beluga-wha...inlet-orca-network-washington-seattle-1636499
Little chance? Have you read this article?
Fish-eating orcas switch prey across Alaska foraging hotspots - Oceanographic
Southern Alaska’s orcas have a diverse, seasonal diet of salmon and groundfish, challenging belief that Chinook dominate their prey.
Yep. Little chance. The paper you're referencing is on fish-eating whales seasonally eating different species of fish. That's not new behavior and has been documented many times for fish-eaters in the North Pacific. Here are a couple more papers showing the same thing: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/a...iNFvYCDxIxCZj_6-Pib6-j1__BLnC4Gw14530Cu-kbONs.
Spatial and seasonal foraging patterns drive diet differences among north Pacific resident killer whale populations - PMC
Highly social top marine predators, including many cetaceans, exhibit culturally learned ecological behaviours such as diet preference and foraging strategy that can affect their resilience to competition or anthropogenic impacts. When these species ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
None of fish eaters are switching to eating mammals, as @sly_karma was hoping for. They do occasionally harass and kill juvenile harbour porpoise and seals, but not at a rate that will make any difference to the population.
Edit: here are two papers on the North Atlantic killer whales prey switching from fish to mammals and back.
Prey switching by killer whales in the north-east Atlantic: observational evidence and experimental insights | Journal of the Marine Biological Association of the United Kingdom | Cambridge Core
Prey switching by killer whales in the north-east Atlantic: observational evidence and experimental insights - Volume 94 Issue 6
What's more interesting is this study on some mammal-eaters in the Aleutians occasionally eating squid!
Investigating the Foraging and Diving Behavior of "Transient"- Type Killer Whales in the Central and Western Aleutians
The Cetacean Assessment and Ecology Program has a continuing project to study predation on marine mammals in the Aleutian Islands.
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adamcu280
Member
Here's more on the topic of prey switching. Some of our local mammal eaters were captured and held in Pedder Bay from March to October 1970. While one died of starvation, a couple of them eventually learned to eat salmon until they escaped/were released. Unsurprisingly they went back to eating marine mammals as soon as they were free.
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