jackfish
Active Member
Completely agree...charging infrastructure both helps those of us already owning EVs, and also lowers the worries of more adopters. I'd hope that $ could flow that direction.
Driving an EV pickup
- Thread starter sly_karma
- Start date
kaelc
Crew Member
Battery prices have tumbled, more than making up for the subsidies I'm guessing?
It's time to attract BYD and others to build plants here; give the other automakers a few tax breaks to convert their Canadian plants. Be nice if Edison could get a big tax break, I don't know how they are going to attract talent not building in Ontario, but sure glad they have the social media reach. I don't care for many politicians but PP did say to Telsa start building your cars here. I'm a big fan of free trade, but give the subsidies to Edison rather than Tesla.
I see Teslas and other EVs in my mom's building in Esquimalt, with no chargers, about an 8-minute drive to Uptown, where there is lots of shopping, dining and Superchargers. A bit of a pain to access, though. It's nice there are superchargers in Sidney, now just need them on the west shore and Victoria will be well set up.
sly_karma
Crew Member
The federal govt is in complete lockdown, no decisions will be made until parliament returns from prorogation, and then probably an election after that, another couple of months without change. It'll be mid-year before we see what direction they'll go. Rebates and grants directly to individuals always have optical challenges for any government as they can be attacked as welfare for the affluent (hence the $70K ceiling on existing EV rebates). Assisting infra expansions through various mechanisms is more equitable both in appearance and actuality.
For many makers, the lower battery are costs helping pay down their R&D faster, hopefully getting them to profitability sooner. Tesla and the Chinese, being further along the road, are chiseling down prices in an effort to keep ahead of the legacy auto makers and force some of them out of the market. They'll probably succeed; Honda and Nissan merging is an indication of the panic in the Japanese industry as they've left it too late to pivot away from light hybrids and hydrogen.
Max123
Well-Known Member
@sly_karma is 100% correct about the infrastructure issue. I'm sure its tough on the public side, but I work in development and have actually dealt with this on two apartment projects - EV charging is a bit of a mess.
Billing: People have zero concept of how EV billing/wiring works in a strata. The 'expecation' is that the cost of charging your EV from your parking stall would just get added onto your bill. This would require someone who lives on Level 20 to have a dedicated 40amp homerun from their suite electrical panel, down to their parking stall at the bottom of the parkade (I'm not aware of a single building that has this). Alternatively, BC Hydro will now offer the strata an extra House meter, so that EV charging can be zoned off from the rest of the common area electrical. The energy billed out from this EV charging account can be allocated to each EV stall, however you can't charge people based on individual electrical consumption because EV chargers don't have utility grade meters, and you can't resell BC Hydro power. Strata corps/homeowners have a tough time understanding this because the electrical charge is just divided by the number of chargers, irrespective of actual kw used - people hate the idea that someone else might be getting a slightly better deal than them (eg if you drive 500km/week or 10km/week you pay the same). There is also the issue of billing admin. Strata corps just aren't setup to manage a monthly utility bill that is constantly changing. I've seen strata's that have everything setup for them, and they still don't take action because no one wants to touch the admin aspect.
Load management. In a multi family apartment building the CEC requires that the load calc for the building assume that either all EV chargers are running 100% of the time (if each EV gets a dedicated circuit) or you have to use 'load management' EV Chargers that match charger output to available circuit capacity. Apartment building have to use load management, or the EV load is so big that they would required a second unit substation inside the building. The problem with load management is that the main providers use proprietary software, and they charge it out as a subscription service. When we looked into it, the cost of centralized load management was just crazy. Essentially these companies are trying to rent EV chargers to you, and essentially manage the whole thing for a monthly cost. The cost we were quoted was in the range of $50/month per charger (admin on load management only, and much more if it includes managing electrical billing/admin), which is actually more than the likely cost of electrical consumption - totally unworkable. The simplest way is to just mandate 'dummy' load management chargers. Typically you have x4 EV chargers on a single 40amp circuit - if you are careful about selecting the model of charger, some have built in load management where all the chargers on that circuit are networked (either via CAT5 or WIFI) and can adjust power delivery - but that's apparently too complicated for people to understand so they do nothing. Its not well documented in the manufacturer's literature either (Tesla chargers can do this - possibly others).
The last issue is the strata property act. In most parkades, you own your stall as limited common property. This means that its basically yours and is shown/assigned on the strata plan filed at Land Titles, the strata can't move you around or take your stall. This is great in terms of securing your ownership, but its locked in stone - even if you want to change it. Imagine a scenario where you have a 200 stall parkade and 10 people want EV chargers, and they are scattered all over the place - in that scenario it would be really great if the strata had flexibility to shuffle people around (or people could privately trade stalls) so they could wire up the parkade progressively - but that's not the case.
Anyway, its a hot mess. Most stratas have zero understanding of what they have/don't have in terms of available electrical capacity and they have no idea what it takes to install/adminster. People just show up with EVs thinking they should be able to plug in, and are frustrated when all they can find are 120V convenience outlets in the parkade (and they start blowing breakers, or get nasty noted from homeowners because they are functionally stealing common area electricity).
If the developer offers you an option to have a finished EV charger installed (even if you don't have an EV) - take it. Its not hard to setup right at the beginning, but almost impossible later on.
Billing: People have zero concept of how EV billing/wiring works in a strata. The 'expecation' is that the cost of charging your EV from your parking stall would just get added onto your bill. This would require someone who lives on Level 20 to have a dedicated 40amp homerun from their suite electrical panel, down to their parking stall at the bottom of the parkade (I'm not aware of a single building that has this). Alternatively, BC Hydro will now offer the strata an extra House meter, so that EV charging can be zoned off from the rest of the common area electrical. The energy billed out from this EV charging account can be allocated to each EV stall, however you can't charge people based on individual electrical consumption because EV chargers don't have utility grade meters, and you can't resell BC Hydro power. Strata corps/homeowners have a tough time understanding this because the electrical charge is just divided by the number of chargers, irrespective of actual kw used - people hate the idea that someone else might be getting a slightly better deal than them (eg if you drive 500km/week or 10km/week you pay the same). There is also the issue of billing admin. Strata corps just aren't setup to manage a monthly utility bill that is constantly changing. I've seen strata's that have everything setup for them, and they still don't take action because no one wants to touch the admin aspect.
Load management. In a multi family apartment building the CEC requires that the load calc for the building assume that either all EV chargers are running 100% of the time (if each EV gets a dedicated circuit) or you have to use 'load management' EV Chargers that match charger output to available circuit capacity. Apartment building have to use load management, or the EV load is so big that they would required a second unit substation inside the building. The problem with load management is that the main providers use proprietary software, and they charge it out as a subscription service. When we looked into it, the cost of centralized load management was just crazy. Essentially these companies are trying to rent EV chargers to you, and essentially manage the whole thing for a monthly cost. The cost we were quoted was in the range of $50/month per charger (admin on load management only, and much more if it includes managing electrical billing/admin), which is actually more than the likely cost of electrical consumption - totally unworkable. The simplest way is to just mandate 'dummy' load management chargers. Typically you have x4 EV chargers on a single 40amp circuit - if you are careful about selecting the model of charger, some have built in load management where all the chargers on that circuit are networked (either via CAT5 or WIFI) and can adjust power delivery - but that's apparently too complicated for people to understand so they do nothing. Its not well documented in the manufacturer's literature either (Tesla chargers can do this - possibly others).
The last issue is the strata property act. In most parkades, you own your stall as limited common property. This means that its basically yours and is shown/assigned on the strata plan filed at Land Titles, the strata can't move you around or take your stall. This is great in terms of securing your ownership, but its locked in stone - even if you want to change it. Imagine a scenario where you have a 200 stall parkade and 10 people want EV chargers, and they are scattered all over the place - in that scenario it would be really great if the strata had flexibility to shuffle people around (or people could privately trade stalls) so they could wire up the parkade progressively - but that's not the case.
Anyway, its a hot mess. Most stratas have zero understanding of what they have/don't have in terms of available electrical capacity and they have no idea what it takes to install/adminster. People just show up with EVs thinking they should be able to plug in, and are frustrated when all they can find are 120V convenience outlets in the parkade (and they start blowing breakers, or get nasty noted from homeowners because they are functionally stealing common area electricity).
If the developer offers you an option to have a finished EV charger installed (even if you don't have an EV) - take it. Its not hard to setup right at the beginning, but almost impossible later on.
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sly_karma
Crew Member
The notion that every condo owner needs their own charger doesn't play out. The strategy that works at the moment is to provide a few 20 kW AC chargers that operate like a public charging facility, EV owners pay as they go, no theft of common electricity. Have management and billing provided by one of the networks like FLO or SWTCH. The strata can recover its electricity use plus a small margin to pay down the upfront installation costs. The EV spaces are located near the electrical room to reduce home run length. Each condo building has its unique challenges, won't work for all.
Max123
Well-Known Member
Try to convince the City of that. Most (possibly all?) municipalities in the Lower Mainland adopted EV charging requirements where every single stall in the building needs to be roughed in (at minimum) for load management EV charging - I have not heard of any flexibility on this. I would absolutely love to just install a few dedicated/finished high speed chargers with built-in point of sale and then figure out some sort of ownership/maintenance contract (it would be great if BC Hydro got in on this, and offered to own/manage the chargers). However most off-street parking bylaws are a joke, and its the main reason the province used the legislative sledgehammer of Bill 47 to eliminate parking minimums for developments near transit.
For example: Most municipalities have fractional stall requirements greater than 1 stall per unit. Eg every 1-bedroom unit is required to have 1.2 stalls/unit, every 2-bedroom 1.5 stalls, etc (the exact number varies). In every development we have ever built we sell each unit with one stall as a baseline (sometimes larger 3-bedroom units will get x2 stalls). Any stalls we have leftover have zero market sale value and there is no demand for them - we typically end up just giving them away as a 'bonus' to any leftover units that are hard to sell - or give them to the strata as common stalls they can rent out. People are happy to take a free stall, but won't pay anywhere close to the actual cost.
Cities know that parking stall supply vastly exceeds demand (GVRD recently released a study showing that most parkades are at less than 50% utilization). Most cities will also offer you 'cash in lieu' option to eliminate stalls. For example, if you want to eliminate a stall in City of Burnaby your current cash in lieu 'contribution' is $26,718.50 (see current Burnaby Planning Fee Schedule). In Coquitlam it varies between $20-35,000/stall (see current off street parking bylaw). The rate theoretically based on cost of construction - which is now approaching $50k per stall. The exact cost of a stall is not that precise because you can't build single stalls - you build entire parkade levels - and the primary cost is dictated by ground conditions and overall parkade depth - so sometimes one additional stall can have a huge negative impact, or minimal impact. While it may cost $50k to build a stall, the actual 'value' of a stall is considerably less.
The market has demonstrated that people do not want the extra stalls (unless they are given away for free), but developers are compelled to build them as a bylaw requirement. The City determines the stall requirement through their parking bylaw but sets the number higher than the market needs/wants, but then offers a cash in-lieu option which is less than the cost of construction. Think about that for a minute. Why would the City ever reduce the parking requirement - it would be eliminating a potential revenue source. Think about who pays for that in the end - the home buyer. Any form of cash in lieu is such a huge conflict of interest when it is the city that sets out the requirement to begin with.
As a builder/developer - if you try to argue/explain this, the City just thinks you are trying to pull a fast one. They have zero self awareness about their own conflict of interest. They assume that if they take the stall off the table, its just a freebe for the developer. There is no understanding that housing cost may actually be linked to cost of construction (shocker!)
I can't wait to see the first group of apartments built under Bill 47, with no mandated parking requirement - and see if people are actually willing to pay the actual cost of $40-50k for the stall - or if you will start to see people who live near transit deciding to purposefully buy in lower cost buildings with no / minimal parkade. Even if the experiment is a failure for some reason I can't predict, it was still worth seeing what would happen.
Sorry if that's a bit of a rant and starting to get off topic. I'm a huge believe in EVs moving forward, and also a believer in the power of municipal planning - I'm not a 'blow it all up' kind of guy - but the current generation of municipal politicians/planners are peak Dunning Kruger. You see this in parking requirements, EV requirements, and tons of other housing issues.
sly_karma
Crew Member
City pollies are trigger happy on green stuff. Leaping into action to go straight to Zero Carbon level 4, despite there being to little to no education in place to bring the builder and design communities up to speed. Demanding an EV rough in for every stall is another, expensive, example.
The FLO network does this already, they manufacture chargers as well as installing and managing them. I often see their online ads and articles trying to entice property owners to purchase and install chargers, complete with cost/benefit scenarios.
When I stay with friends in Whistler, I use the AC chargers in their townhome development. The strata council owns them and pays the power bill, the SWTCH network handles the point of sale stuff via its app. I believe they provide maintenance/support as well, although there's not much to go wrong with AC equipment. There are three chargers for an 85 unit complex.
This model would work for most existing townhome setups that have some additional power available in the common areas service. As described by Max above, new builds are a different story.
Haverodwilltravel
Member
Still driving it?
wildmanyeah
Crew Member
the cost of upgrading a panel is not to bad its the cost of upgrading the transformer that's the kick to the nuts
Max123
Well-Known Member
Or the cost of upgrading your entire service connection when BC Hydro takes one look at your meter/mast and says "that was built to the old standard - needs to be re-done to new standard"
sly_karma
Crew Member
Oh god yes. Except the service upgrade/relocation pain lasts for months and months, even if you're not paying the bill. I get that the electrical code is not to be messed with, many of those regs are there because someone died or was maimed. But the utilities' internal processes are just elephantine. In the South Okanagan we deal with FortisBC, City of Penticton and District of Summerland. The two latter are a bit easier to deal with due to smaller management tree, but Fortis is a blank wall of bureacracy. In the past I had acquired a small collection of invaluable phone numbers and emails of actual individuals who I could call and get answers to questions. But policy now prohibits such contact unless required in the strict adherence to proper procedure. Probably just as frustrating for them as it is for me.
sly_karma
Crew Member
I drove the Silverado crew truck today to get its oil changed. That was my daily driver for almost 10 years and I thought it the best truck I'd ever owned. Now it feels so gutless and primitive. Uck.
wildmanyeah
Crew Member
reminds me of what people said in the 2006 documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car"
sly_karma
Crew Member
Another reason why I won't go back: gas trucks are five times more expensive to run, in my use case. Check my 2024 driving log below; a full year/24,700 km of driving has cost me $1300, where the Chevy would have cost $6500 at this year's gas and oil change prices. Just 5 cents per km vs 27 cents/km. In 4-5 years, I'll buy another EV truck, move the Lightning into the work fleet, sell the oldest truck or van. Takes depreciation off the table when you keep them longer. Whatever I buy will almost certainly have more range and faster charge rate - and might even have a lower sticker price.
jackfish
Active Member
Sly, and you haven't even included the maintenance cost reductions. No filters, oil changes, belts, O2 sensors, tranny flush, plugs, blah blah blah. Nor the lost time scheduling maintenance at the dealer. Nor lost time stopping at gas stations every other week (99% charge at home).
sly_karma
Crew Member
I didn't show my working, but I did add $500 maintenance to the gas burn cost. Oil changes aren't cheap, synthetic oil, so $500 is probably a bit underdone.
wildmanyeah
Crew Member
full synthetic package at jiffy lube for my f150 was $183 with tax
Marley
Well-Known Member
I drove a friends cyber truck today. It was an interesting experience. The acceleration in beast mode was unlike any vehicle I have been in amazing off the line. The auto pilot was a bit un nerving but worked fine. Getting used to the regenerative breaking was surprisingly easy.
I thought that the steering was innovative. Max you can turn the wheel is 90 degrees. With 4 wheel steering it was easy to turn around in a tight space.
Had some fun features for the kids like being able to make each individual seat make fart sounds or a light display.
Overall not the truck for me but a cool experience. Made my new bronco seem old fashioned
I thought that the steering was innovative. Max you can turn the wheel is 90 degrees. With 4 wheel steering it was easy to turn around in a tight space.
Had some fun features for the kids like being able to make each individual seat make fart sounds or a light display.
Overall not the truck for me but a cool experience. Made my new bronco seem old fashioned
sly_karma
Crew Member
Yep same here earlier today. Two of those a year plus whatever else happens. Now that it's over 235,000 km, those annual maintenance/repair bills are going nowhere but up.
The only money I've spent on maintenance on the Lightning so far is cabin air filters, done a few of those since it's always around dusty construction sites. But did the same with previous trucks anyway.
sly_karma
Crew Member
There's a couple of CTs around here now, I really want to get a tour and a drive if possible. The styling isn't my cup of tea, but I'd like to learn what they're like as a truck. Could they be a work truck? No comment until I've checked one out and heard owner experiences.
