Driving an EV pickup

[sly_karma]

Expect that electric motors and battery’s have been around for a 100 years EVs and are not knew technology.

Idk if we can expect rapid advancement

There are billions of dollars being spent on battery technology at the moment, variously seeking to increase energy density, lower cost, maximise charging speed, extend service life. All things for which EVs cop criticism at the moment.

Remember, it's only been a dozen or so years since the first mass produced EV, the 2011 Nissan Leaf. That model had a range of just 117 km, but was steadily improved as better batteries became accessible. The last model, the 2022, had an available long range pack that was good for 364 km, a threefold improvement. There are aftermarket batteries available for the gen 1 series that have more than double the original range, yet still fit within the physical dimensions of the factory module. Those are pretty good improvements, despite Leaf always being viewed by Nissan as a niche product, not their focus for the future. Even as underfunded as the Leaf project was, they managed to triple the car's range in a decade. We haven't seen anything like that pace of improvement in ICE performance since the 1910-20 period, when a world war pushed technology forward on dozens of different fronts.

 

[sly_karma]

@sly_karma => 120V charging is reliable but slow, adding 70 kWh took 76 hours. OMG, I think most folks would die waiting for that long to get their truck moving again. Thankfully you have a level 2 at home.

In the first week I had the truck, I tried plugging in to 120V for an hour, just to verify that the Ford mobile charger worked. That was the only time until this past weekend. Yes, it was the electrical equivalent of filling an F150 tank with a teacup, but the truck was always gonna just sit there anyway. We ski to and from the house, my friend's car doesn't come out of the garage for a week or more at a time all season. As slow as it was, that gas tank still filled itself while we skied, socialized and slept. For a whopping $8.

It's also crossed my mind that this confirms a hitherto uncertain part of the trip to a remote fishing location. We go to Winter Harbour each year, and although there is no public charging station, there's 120 V outlets. The truck is parked for 4 nights anyway, so I'd be leaving WH with full range, could easily drive straight through to the BC Hydro chargers at Sayward Junction.

 

[Umos]

In the first week I had the truck, I tried plugging in to 120V for an hour, just to verify that the Ford mobile charger worked. That was the only time until this past weekend. Yes, it was the electrical equivalent of filling an F150 tank with a teacup, but the truck was always gonna just sit there anyway. We ski to and from the house, my friend's car doesn't come out of the garage for a week or more at a time all season. As slow as it was, that gas tank still filled itself while we skied, socialized and slept. For a whopping $8.

It's also crossed my mind that this confirms a hitherto uncertain part of the trip to a remote fishing location. We go to Winter Harbour each year, and although there is no public charging station, there's 120 V outlets. The truck is parked for 4 nights anyway, so I'd be leaving WH with full range, could easily drive straight through to the BC Hydro chargers at Sayward Junction.

Have you towed to WH or elsewhere on WCVI yet? Would be keen to hear how it went. Seems pretty doable with the current charging infrastructure. My only concern is if we start getting line ups at the few fast chargers on your route, which I could see happening on VI if adoption outpaces infrastructure . I do 3 winter trips each year from the island to Prince George. I don’t see line ups ever being an issue in that route, easy setup for charging infrastructure and low EV adoption by northern long haulers.

 

[kaelc]

Further to the Nissan Leaf advancements With BYD and Tesla being purely EV and massive I think their ability to quickly innovate compared to traditional automakers on range, reliability and features will be remarkable. I remember looking at case studies in business school, on what would become teslas first factory, when it was jointly owned by GM/Toyota. The organization disfunction built into the management/union and processes was impossible to change. I’d bet on BYD and Tesla to continue to innovate, the 48v and gigabit ethernet changes are huge compared to the old Can Bus standard and running 12v cables from the wheels back to the batteries. From electric drive haul trucks to Vancouver’s electric trolly buses and sky train I’m excited. Glad the 120v slow charge is working out and you are getting some good skiing in. https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...ring-harness-and-can-bus-obsolete-225672.html

 

[sly_karma]

Have you towed to WH or elsewhere on WCVI yet? Would be keen to hear how it went. Seems pretty doable with the current charging infrastructure. My only concern is if we start getting line ups at the few fast chargers on your route, which I could see happening on VI if adoption outpaces infrastructure . I do 3 winter trips each year from the island to Prince George. I don’t see line ups ever being an issue in that route, easy setup for charging infrastructure and low EV adoption by northern long haulers.

We charter at WH. My boat is fine for Sunshine Coast fishing but I have no intention to take it to WCVI. I'll tow mine down to the coast this spring and bring it back in August. Based on what I've seen towing around the valley, it'll be a straightforward trip with one extra stop for charging each way. Would be even easier if I could find a 120V outlet so it could slow charge while parked at the marina. Working on that.

 

[Rain City]

We charter at WH. My boat is fine for Sunshine Coast fishing but I have no intention to take it to WCVI. I'll tow mine down to the coast this spring and bring it back in August. Based on what I've seen towing around the valley, it'll be a straightforward trip with one extra stop for charging each way. Would be even easier if I could find a 120V outlet so it could slow charge while parked at the marina. Working on that.

What about bringing one of those power block thingys I'm seeing all over the internet? Solar panels on the roof while parked?

 

[sly_karma]

Further to the Nissan Leaf advancements With BYD and Tesla being purely EV and massive I think their ability to quickly innovate compared to traditional automakers on range, reliability and features will be remarkable. I remember looking at case studies in business school, on what would become teslas first factory, when it was jointly owned by GM/Toyota. The organization disfunction built into the management/union and processes was impossible to change. I’d bet on BYD and Tesla to continue to innovate, the 48v and gigabit ethernet changes are huge compared to the old Can Bus standard and running 12v cables from the wheels back to the batteries. From electric drive haul trucks to Vancouver’s electric trolly buses and sky train I’m excited. Glad the 120v slow charge is working out and you are getting some good skiing in. https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...ring-harness-and-can-bus-obsolete-225672.html

If I'm around long enough, I think automotive historians a quarter of a century from now will regard the period 2015-2025 as a pivotal time. Tesla will be recognized for revolutionizing the way all cars are manufactured, and total integration of the car and its environment. BYD for taking breakthrough battery technologies into global scale production at unprecedented speed.

 

[sly_karma]

What about bringing one of those power block thingys I'm seeing all over the internet? Solar panels on the roof while parked?

Looked into it. At the moment all solutions involve charging the power bank from solar, then inverting to AC and charging EV that way. Would require a trip to mainland each evening to dump that day's solar production into the truck, for maybe 3 kWh of energy (3% of battery). Using vacation time and burning boat gas to get "free" solar energy ($1500-2000 for the panels, controller amd storage)... the numbers don't add up. I did think about it though, the truck just sits in a sunny parking lot for 2 weeks! No doubt that in time, flow-through solutions will become available.

Solution A is to approach marina mgmt or neighbouring homeowners and make an offer of cash for parking with plug in. The very most power it can use is $10, once it's full it just sits there. Solution B is to drive to Madeira Park one afternoon, plug in at the charger there, have lunch while waiting.

 

[wildmanyeah]

There are billions of dollars being spent on battery technology at the moment, variously seeking to increase energy density, lower cost, maximise charging speed, extend service life. All things for which EVs cop criticism at the moment.

Remember, it's only been a dozen or so years since the first mass produced EV, the 2011 Nissan Leaf. That model had a range of just 117 km, but was steadily improved as better batteries became accessible. The last model, the 2022, had an available long range pack that was good for 364 km, a threefold improvement. There are aftermarket batteries available for the gen 1 series that have more than double the original range, yet still fit within the physical dimensions of the factory module. Those are pretty good improvements, despite Leaf always being viewed by Nissan as a niche product, not their focus for the future. Even as underfunded as the Leaf project was, they managed to triple the car's range in a decade. We haven't seen anything like that pace of improvement in ICE performance since the 1910-20 period, when a world war pushed technology forward on dozens of different fronts.

I dont know if we can expect a leap, battery tech has been slowly improving, do you use corded tools anymore

 

[Rain City]

Looked into it. At the moment all solutions involve charging the power bank from solar, then inverting to AC and charging EV that way. Would require a trip to mainland each evening to dump that day's solar production into the truck, for maybe 3 kWh of energy (3% of battery). Using vacation time and burning boat gas to get "free" solar energy ($1500-2000 for the panels, controller amd storage)... the numbers don't add up. I did think about it though, the truck just sits in a sunny parking lot for 2 weeks! No doubt that in time, flow-through solutions will become available.

Solution A is to approach marina mgmt or neighbouring homeowners and make an offer of cash for parking with plug in. The very most power it can use is $10, once it's full it just sits there. Solution B is to drive to Madeira Park one afternoon, plug in at the charger there, have lunch while waiting.

It's funny, I worked with a group of electricians and snake charmers that did a terrible job of proposing these charging stations to the city about 10 years ago. Part of the "plan" was to have long term parking in a secure area. Along with a coffee shop, tanning salon, etc. and fast chargers like a gas station. The city was on board to "donate" the underutilized land like under bridge on and off ramps. The problem was the team didn't present a viable business model and it involved the city running the things. The meeting died right there. I can actually see them being looked at again when I hear examples like this. There's no way that asking neighbours or businesses is a viable option, long term.

 

[sly_karma]

I dont know if we can expect a leap, battery tech has been slowly improving, do you use corded tools anymore

The outright number one concern holding people back from EV purchase is range anxiety (whether it's warranted or not). Increased range without massively large/heavy/expensive vehicles means a big jump in energy density; about double what we have now is needed to make 3/4 and 1 ton pickups viable, or to provide 700 km summer/500 km winter range for most cars/midsize SUVs. Literally billions are being spent on this as we speak, industrial development push at an intensity level that we haven't seen since the 1960s space race. If Nissan could triple Leaf range in a decade, despite it being a backwater project that never received full factory support, imagine what the industry as a whole could achieve now that it's throwing its full muscle at energy density. And there are similar projects working on battery architecture that permits hyper fast charging.

 

[wildmanyeah]

The outright number one concern holding people back from EV purchase is range anxiety (whether it's warranted or not). Increased range without massively large/heavy/expensive vehicles means a big jump in energy density; about double what we have now is needed to make 3/4 and 1 ton pickups viable, or to provide 700 km summer/500 km winter range for most cars/midsize SUVs. Literally billions are being spent on this as we speak, industrial development push at an intensity level that we haven't seen since the 1960s space race. If Nissan could triple Leaf range in a decade, despite it being a backwater project that never received full factory support, imagine what the industry as a whole could achieve now that it's throwing its full muscle at energy density. And there are similar projects working on battery architecture that permits hyper fast charging.

mine and my wife concern is not range anxiety but rather if the 100k km it took us 12 years to put on her car is enough KM to provide enough savings to make the current premium worth it. (she needs it to go to work)

If energy density doubled perhaps range could stay the same, use half as much batteries and bring the price down. We were 100% going to by an EV but now we're really questioning if there is a point.

I am also not sure if the current batteries degrade over time regardless of use.

 

[sly_karma]

mine and my wife concern is not range anxiety but rather if the 100k km it took us 12 years to put on her car is enough KM to provide enough savings to make the current premium worth it.

If energy density doubled perhaps range could stay the same, use half as much batteries and bring the price down. We were 100% going to by an EV but now we're really questioning if there is a point.

I am also not sure if the current batteries degrade over time regardless of use.

I'm really not concerned about battery lifespan. If manufacturers even in these early days are willing to provide longer warranty on their batteries than on the ICE drivetrains they've been developing and building for decades, what does that tell you? From the reading I've done and my observations to date, I expect the original battery pack to last the 15 years I intend to own it, same as I'd expect from a modern truck engine and transmission.

Have you looked at used EVs? A lot of Tesla model 3s hit the used market when they released the model Y, so many people prefer SUV to sedan these days. They'll cost $30-35K, compared to $55K new. Take a close look at battery range now compared to new - they typically lose 5% in the first year or two, then loss slows, easing out to 10-12% at 300,000 km driven. Not much other running gear wears out, shocks and tires same as gas vehicle, brakes a lot less. And obviously none of the usual stuff you know is on borrowed time above 150,000 km like fuel pump, alternator, power steering pump, water pump.

 

[wildmanyeah]

easing out to 10-12% at 300,000 km driven.

Do you know if it looses this based on Use or just time?

 

[sly_karma]

It's funny, I worked with a group of electricians and snake charmers that did a terrible job of proposing these charging stations to the city about 10 years ago. Part of the "plan" was to have long term parking in a secure area. Along with a coffee shop, tanning salon, etc. and fast chargers like a gas station. The city was on board to "donate" the underutilized land like under bridge on and off ramps. The problem was the team didn't present a viable business model and it involved the city running the things. The meeting died right there. I can actually see them being looked at again when I hear examples like this. There's no way that asking neighbours or businesses is a viable option, long term.

It's funny that so many people assume those who work in government don't understand business plans and practices. The public sector staff I rub elbows with in the housing and construction world would laugh at the "plan" you described too. They're professionals at what they do, and recognize a dog when they see it - especially when it would require more, not less, municipal resources.

 

[wildmanyeah]

It's funny that so many people assume those who work in government don't understand business plans and practices. The public sector staff I rub elbows with in the housing and construction world would laugh at the "plan" you described too. They're professionals at what they do, and recognize a dog when they see it - especially when it would require more, not less, municipal resources.

Governments are not innovators and are dinosaurs to deal with.

 

[sly_karma]

Do you know if it looses this based on Use or just time?

Fair question, and as I understand it, a bit of both. Some reading:

https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last

Also worth reading many of the other articles on the site under the "Research" tab.

 

[Bill 310]

mine and my wife concern is not range anxiety but rather if the 100k km it took us 12 years to put on her car is enough KM to provide enough savings to make the current premium worth it. (she needs it to go to work)

If energy density doubled perhaps range could stay the same, use half as much batteries and bring the price down. We were 100% going to by an EV but now we're really questioning if there is a point.

I am also not sure if the current batteries degrade over time regardless of use.

We are in the same boat. My wife has a 14 year old Lexus RX350 with 106,000 KMs on it. Perfect shape First Owners .

We are now retired and in our late 60's

A few of the shop staff at the dealership want to buy my wife's car if/when she sells it.

The only reason that we are considering selling her car is because our newer car a 2022 RX 350 is not as comfortable for me so a replacement vehicle would likely be for me most of the time.

We notice all of driver safety features in the new car and find them to be extremely valuable

For example there have been significant advances in vehicle headlights in the last 20 years. These things become more appreciated and valued the older one gets.

On our Sept Road trip just over 9200 kms, we rented a Dodge Charger and the rental cost was just under $1,200.00. That makes more sense than using your own car.

Hint rent in September and never rent from the airport. The same rental booked at YVR was closer to 4K. Taxes, fees, and higher rates.

I have now sat in a Ford Lightering and it is very comfortable/

 

[-Jim-]

We are in the same boat. My wife has a 14 year old Lexus RX350 with 106,000 KMs on it. Perfect shape First Owners .

We are now retired and in our late 60's

A few of the shop staff at the dealership want to buy my wife's car if/when she sells it.

The only reason that we are considering selling her car is because our newer car a 2022 RX 350 is not as comfortable for me so a replacement vehicle would likely be for me most of the time.

We notice all of driver safety features in the new car and find them to be extremely valuable

For example there have been significant advances in vehicle headlights in the last 20 years. These things become more appreciated and valued the older one gets.

On our Sept Road trip just over 9200 kms, we rented a Dodge Charger and the rental cost was just under $1,200.00. That makes more sense than using your own car.

Hint rent in September and never rent from the airport. The same rental booked at YVR was closer to 4K. Taxes, fees, and higher rates.

I have now sat in a Ford Lightering and it is very comfortable/

I have similar concerns on going to an EV, but we have time on our side. My wife's Lexus is a 2017 so it will most likely be the first one replaced, but she's not keen on EVs at all, as she only hears the horror stories on the News about $50,000 replacement batteries and all.

It's just shy of 66,000 KMs and my plan was to get 10 years out of it, and my car. (She only has to drive it to work 2 days a week these days due to the radical changes in office attendance due to Covid.) We always garage keep our cars, and try to keep them in good shape. It will probably be less than 90,000 KMs in 2027.

I drive a 2019 Mazda CX-9 Signature and my wife doesn't like it's size, except when we fill it with the granddaughters, or I launch the Boat. She does like the Heads Up display (and all the Safety Alerts) when she rarely drives it (only when I have to take her Lexus in for service). I wanted a 2 row SUV, but she convinced me to go 3 row just for those reasons. She'd like to get those for her next car. But so far, EVs aren't making her warm and fuzzy.

Maybe after we go to the Vancouver Auto Show which returns March 20–24, 2024.

 

[sly_karma]

Off to the ski hill yesterday, an illustration of the effect of big elevation gain/loss.

Range at departure: 168 km. Temp +2°C
Range on arrival at Apex: 90 km. Temp 0°C.
Range "consumed": 78 km
Actual distance driven: 36.2 km
Start elevation 385 m
Destination elevation 1700 m

7 hours later:
Range at departure from Apex: 86 km. Temp +1°C
Range on arrival home: 92 km. Temp +6°C
Range "gained": 6 km
Actual distance driven: 36.2 km

Round trip:
Range at departure: 168 km
Range on arrival: 92 km
Range "consumed": 76 km
Actual distance driven: 72.4 km

So the big energy consumed to lift a 3 ton rig 1300 metres up a mountain still outweighs the energy regained coming back down, but not by a huge margin.

I've driven that road a zillion times over 35 years, and it's always involved a lot of gearing down to avoid burning up brakes. Not any more, one pedal driving makes it so easy. You just drive down the mountain at whatever speed you choose. No gear selection, no heavy braking. Gaining back most of the energy used on the climb makes it even better.