Alex_c
Well-Known Member
Lol yeah, right. My bad.You mean X?
Driving an EV pickup
- Thread starter sly_karma
- Start date
kaelc
Crew Member
Saw a cyber truck reservation on Facebook for 4k today, jumped on craigslist and 5-40k usd dollars are the list price for reservations. One guy offering to buy a reservation for $500. I'm thinking it might be worth as much as a condo assignment but obviously I don't buy presale or get in lines for iPhones.
Irishwolf
Crew Member
I have one. 150,000ish in line. Didn’t think you were allowed to sell it!
sly_karma
Crew Member
Ok, this morning's piece of EV minutiae: cold weather and its effects on range. Here's a shot of my screen after charging overnight, outside temp is ~0°C, 325 km predicted range. If not plugged in, 90% range will be about 305 km in these temps. There's the same amount of energy stored in the battery every time, so what gives?
EV batteries are carefully managed to operate at optimum temp at all times. There's a glycol circulation system that either distributes or removes heat from the battery modules to prevent overheating or underperformance due to low temp. If you've tried to charge cordless tool batteries in very warm or very cool conditions, you'll know what I'm talking about: sometimes the battery won't charge at first because it's too hot or too cold. The thermal management system monitors and adjusts both for driving and charging. Even in colder weather, fast charging produces some heat and may need to be cooled during the charge process.
Power on an EV on a cold morning, and obviously the battery temp is well below the optimum 18-20°C. The battery will use some energy to warm itself up, and may slightly restrict power to the wheels until op temp is reached. Lightning will show this, on a frosty morning it might only have 85% power available for the first few minutes. As the trip progresses, the management system may need to use some battery energy to maintain op temp. This is the main reason for the lower range estimate in cold weather - and also in very warm conditions.
Modern battery management systems also have a feature known as pre-conditioning. This is where the driver tells the system that they want to start driving or charging soon, and the system prepares the battery accordingly. Ford has settings within its app for departure times. When plugged in, the truck preheats both battery and cabin in time for departure. That preconditioned battery doesnt need to use its own energy for temp control, hence the improved range estimate.
Winter driving uses more energy in any vehicle. Most ICE drivers don't watch the Distance To Empty display all the time, but if you did, you'd notice it was lower due to increased idling for warmup, winter tires and snow on roads increasing rolling resistance. These factors exist for EV as well, but they also use some energy to self-heat the battery and provide cabin heat. There's so much energy waste (65-75%) in an ICE that the winter factors are somewhat buried, but in EV they show because of energy losses so lean to begin with (<10%).
EV batteries are carefully managed to operate at optimum temp at all times. There's a glycol circulation system that either distributes or removes heat from the battery modules to prevent overheating or underperformance due to low temp. If you've tried to charge cordless tool batteries in very warm or very cool conditions, you'll know what I'm talking about: sometimes the battery won't charge at first because it's too hot or too cold. The thermal management system monitors and adjusts both for driving and charging. Even in colder weather, fast charging produces some heat and may need to be cooled during the charge process.
Power on an EV on a cold morning, and obviously the battery temp is well below the optimum 18-20°C. The battery will use some energy to warm itself up, and may slightly restrict power to the wheels until op temp is reached. Lightning will show this, on a frosty morning it might only have 85% power available for the first few minutes. As the trip progresses, the management system may need to use some battery energy to maintain op temp. This is the main reason for the lower range estimate in cold weather - and also in very warm conditions.
Modern battery management systems also have a feature known as pre-conditioning. This is where the driver tells the system that they want to start driving or charging soon, and the system prepares the battery accordingly. Ford has settings within its app for departure times. When plugged in, the truck preheats both battery and cabin in time for departure. That preconditioned battery doesnt need to use its own energy for temp control, hence the improved range estimate.
Winter driving uses more energy in any vehicle. Most ICE drivers don't watch the Distance To Empty display all the time, but if you did, you'd notice it was lower due to increased idling for warmup, winter tires and snow on roads increasing rolling resistance. These factors exist for EV as well, but they also use some energy to self-heat the battery and provide cabin heat. There's so much energy waste (65-75%) in an ICE that the winter factors are somewhat buried, but in EV they show because of energy losses so lean to begin with (<10%).
Max123
Well-Known Member
@sly_karma - Thanks for all the updates and commentary. I'm not in the market for an EV yet, but my next vehicle in 4-5 years likely will be one. I'm curious, if you cross shopped your F-150 against a Rivian. I realize they are a bit more pricey, but was curious on your take.
Whole in the Water
Well-Known Member
Anyone on the forum place an order for a Tesla Cyber truck?
Irishwolf
Crew Member
I did. 150k ish in line. Ordered a duel motor variant. Current pricing is too much for me atm tho. And I’m a modest guy, not sure I want the attention…
kaelc
Crew Member
Launching your tiny with a Cybertruck would be a boss move! When ever I see a new 1 ton and a new boat I say to myself either that guy is rich as f.... or broke as me. What I love is an old truck rocking an awesome boat or camper. Saw a mint C10 with a nice camper on my way back from Tofino at the McD's in Port Alberni.
One person selling on Craigslist Seattle is selling this reservation and only asking for money after delivery, 40k USD, I didn't even understand the deal. In Canada you will likely see a luxury tax unless Elon somehow cosies up to Trudeau or PP.
sly_karma
Crew Member
The price and the little 4 ft box put me off Rivian for a work truck. Then came Ford's announcement, we all know F150 is a decent work vehicle and the proce seemed reasonable, so I reserved. Of course by the time it came to market it was clear it would only have the short 5.5 ft box, but still a lot better.
Irishwolf
Crew Member
WOW, you've put 8500km on it already!?
Have you tried towing yet? Does the range drop much? Apologies if already mentioned.
Umos
Well-Known Member
You hear a fair bit of talk about perceived EV charging hassles and range anxiety. We live about 15km from town, and do most of our daily runs without going through town. This morning, after dropping the kids off at school, I had to take 40 minutes to make the 30km round trip to town just to fuel up our ICE, no other stops. Couldn’t help feeling it sure would have been convenient if I could have fueled up at home. Just saying…
I am finding this whole thread to be very informative. The information posted and questions being asked are well thought out and respectful. I never really thought I would be an EV guy but I think I might have to reconsider. Thank you to everyone, especially sly_karma.
Newf
Crew Member
For some the charging hassles are not perceived. I only personally know of two people that have EV's. One has the Ford Lightning and the other a Hyundai Ionic 5. Both of these families live in Strata complexes.
The one with the Lightning has no room in his tiny garage for the truck and can't park and charge in his parking space because his truck sticks a foot or two past his allotted space. He loves everything about the truck but finds it a pain in the butt trying to charge when needed. Spaces around him are often filled with other vehicles. It's a company truck but even at his workplace, outlets are not often available because of other users.
The second person is in a Strata where he would have to sign a waiver, taking complete responsibility for his unit and any around him should something happen as a direct result of the charging station that he would have to install. (This was discussed in a separate thread) He currently charges with the 110v outlet which is not practical if you do any amount of driving. When he knows he going to need extra mileage he goes out and drives around to find a vacant charging station and tops up as he goes for a walk. At least he gets a bit of exercise.
The folks in both of these examples manage, but its far from convenient and is frustrating at times. Not everyone has the luxury of having their own stand alone charging station at their home. As EV's become more mainstream, there's needs to be a much bigger investment in the infrastructure to support it. A few charging station here and there is not gonna cut it when it grows from the 10% EV that are currently on the road.
sly_karma
Crew Member
70% of the Canadian housing stock is single family detached. That's the low hanging fruit now, in the early phase of the shift to EV. Home charging is super cheap and super convenient, it's almost all upside for these people.
I felt for your friend whose employer puts them in a full size truck but their home situation isn't suited for it. Obviously a gas pickup is just as hard to park in a densified area, but home charging is a headache and they must have charging worries nagging at them all the time. Yuk.
More compact housing forms are a growing reality as towns and cities increase density. Vehicles of all types become a more of a challenge than a benefit if you live in the city core, better to walk or use transit. But the in between areas where transit isn't as convenient but there's still very limited parking, that is a challenge for EV owners. Over time, strata councils will overcome their fears about EV and install facilities - some already have - but it's still a cooperative situation requiring plugs to be shared among owners. Some cities are installing streetside chargers mounted on utility poles to help where off-street parking isn't available.
kaelc
Crew Member
Interesting to see a clients development proposal, EV “ready” just has the conduit supplied and space in the mcc room? Sorry don’t know what they call electrical rooms/panels in residential. It’s starting off as a rental for 10 years, hopefully there will be grants to phase them in for renters who need them cause rent won’t be cheap.
Bike parking has 129 with 50% electrical and 100% of the 26 cargo bikes.
Proposal was about to go to a public hearing but ndp eliminated hearings, be interesting to see if the 119 suite building gets approved.
Bike parking has 129 with 50% electrical and 100% of the 26 cargo bikes.
Proposal was about to go to a public hearing but ndp eliminated hearings, be interesting to see if the 119 suite building gets approved.
Max123
Well-Known Member
@kaelc - I have a bit of experience with EV charging in new multi-family apartment stratas - forgive me if I get a bit too far into the weeds. I see three main issues:
1) Common Property vs Limited Common Property. In 99% of all stratas your parking stall is designated as 'limited common property' on the strata plan (sometimes its done as an exclusive use license, but the impact is similar). What that means is that although the parking stall is not a part of your strata lot, it is common property assigned to the exclusive use of that strata lot. It basically means you are as close to owning it as you can get. The flip side of 'you own it' is that you don't share it. Lets say the strata wants to install a few EV chargers for use by all owners - there's just nowhere to do it because everyone owns their own stall there is no mechanism to share. As such, the only option is to install an EV charger (or allow sufficient capacity) at every single stall.
2) Electrical Capacity. In a single family house you typically have a 100amp or 200amp electrical service and power transformation to 120/240V is handled by the utility. The electrical load on your panel is a relatively simple calculation that takes floor area + electric range + electric dryer + Electric heating/cooling, and de-rates the load for each of these because they typically do not occur simultaneously. Load from an EV charger is not de-rated, and adds 30-50amps on top. In an apartment building, you do a similar load calc, however as the number of units increases the Electrical code allows you to further derate the main electrical service because not all loads from all suites occur simultaneously. However, EV load is on its own dedicated electrical system which is completely seperate from the suites and the Electrical code does not allow you to de-rate these loads (eg it requires the entire EV system to be sized in order to handle every single EV charging simultaneously). It is not uncommon to see the electrical system for the EV charging system sized almost the same as the entire rest of the building. Essentially you end up with an EV charging electrical system so big, that the building needs a second unit substation (the main transformer that received power from the utility ar 12,500/25,000 volts). To avoid this, the only real option is to rough-in a 'load management' system in which central load management hardware/software monitors the loads going to the chargers and then throttles capacity up or down based on which EVs are actually charging while not exceeding the building's electrical system capacity. In these 'networked' systems, a single 40amp circuit can handle up to 4 stalls, versus 1-40amp circuit per stall with a conventional charger. The main problem with these systems is that they operate on 3rd party subscription software, use proprietarty hardware, and have high monthly subscription costs. The developer can rough in the wiring/panels for these systems, but they can't install the load management system or the actual chargers because you would be committing to a particular system and every strata owner would now be paying for the EV charging load management service whether they own an EV or not. As of right now, most apartment buildings only have a few EVs.
3) Billing. In a modern strata building, BC Hydro will supply a dedicated/shared master meter for the exclusive use of the EV charging system. They won't supply individual meters to each EV charger, and the BC Utility Commission does not allow the strata to use the meter's built in software to track consumption for billing purposes because that would make the strata a 'reseller' of electricity and the EV chargers are not utility grade meters. As such, the strata gets one bill for EV charging and the only way to apportion it is by dividing it among all EV users as a fixed charge. Given the relatively low cost of electricity for EV charging, that's not a huge issue in practice - but strata's hate it because they have to explain why the person who drives 50km/week is paying the same monthly charge as the guy driving 100km/day. 'Perceived fairness' is a huge issue when it comes to running a functional strata meeting.
Strata corps are run by volunteers and aren't always the most sophisticated operators. Managing the installation/billing of an EV charging network is like running a small utility and is just beyond the scope of most Councils. Consequently, you see a lot of buildings that have been rough-ed in for EV chargers, where the Strata just sits on their hands and does nothing because they don't fully understand what they have, what the limitations of the building are, or who to talk to. Every option requires an expensive commitment, and is extremely hard to do if you only have a handful of initial EV owners.
What I would really like to see is an approach that makes it feasible for the developer to install the finished meters without requiring crazy electrical systems - either with fewer/simpler non-networked meters that are shared (or installed in shared 'common property' parking stalls). Would it be completely crazy in our modern world to have an EV charger shared between 2 stalls, and each person has the right to charge every other day? Alternatively, have the developer just install 1-2 DC fast charging station per building (with utility grade metering and direct credit card billing), and forget the individual Level 2 chargers entirely.
1) Common Property vs Limited Common Property. In 99% of all stratas your parking stall is designated as 'limited common property' on the strata plan (sometimes its done as an exclusive use license, but the impact is similar). What that means is that although the parking stall is not a part of your strata lot, it is common property assigned to the exclusive use of that strata lot. It basically means you are as close to owning it as you can get. The flip side of 'you own it' is that you don't share it. Lets say the strata wants to install a few EV chargers for use by all owners - there's just nowhere to do it because everyone owns their own stall there is no mechanism to share. As such, the only option is to install an EV charger (or allow sufficient capacity) at every single stall.
2) Electrical Capacity. In a single family house you typically have a 100amp or 200amp electrical service and power transformation to 120/240V is handled by the utility. The electrical load on your panel is a relatively simple calculation that takes floor area + electric range + electric dryer + Electric heating/cooling, and de-rates the load for each of these because they typically do not occur simultaneously. Load from an EV charger is not de-rated, and adds 30-50amps on top. In an apartment building, you do a similar load calc, however as the number of units increases the Electrical code allows you to further derate the main electrical service because not all loads from all suites occur simultaneously. However, EV load is on its own dedicated electrical system which is completely seperate from the suites and the Electrical code does not allow you to de-rate these loads (eg it requires the entire EV system to be sized in order to handle every single EV charging simultaneously). It is not uncommon to see the electrical system for the EV charging system sized almost the same as the entire rest of the building. Essentially you end up with an EV charging electrical system so big, that the building needs a second unit substation (the main transformer that received power from the utility ar 12,500/25,000 volts). To avoid this, the only real option is to rough-in a 'load management' system in which central load management hardware/software monitors the loads going to the chargers and then throttles capacity up or down based on which EVs are actually charging while not exceeding the building's electrical system capacity. In these 'networked' systems, a single 40amp circuit can handle up to 4 stalls, versus 1-40amp circuit per stall with a conventional charger. The main problem with these systems is that they operate on 3rd party subscription software, use proprietarty hardware, and have high monthly subscription costs. The developer can rough in the wiring/panels for these systems, but they can't install the load management system or the actual chargers because you would be committing to a particular system and every strata owner would now be paying for the EV charging load management service whether they own an EV or not. As of right now, most apartment buildings only have a few EVs.
3) Billing. In a modern strata building, BC Hydro will supply a dedicated/shared master meter for the exclusive use of the EV charging system. They won't supply individual meters to each EV charger, and the BC Utility Commission does not allow the strata to use the meter's built in software to track consumption for billing purposes because that would make the strata a 'reseller' of electricity and the EV chargers are not utility grade meters. As such, the strata gets one bill for EV charging and the only way to apportion it is by dividing it among all EV users as a fixed charge. Given the relatively low cost of electricity for EV charging, that's not a huge issue in practice - but strata's hate it because they have to explain why the person who drives 50km/week is paying the same monthly charge as the guy driving 100km/day. 'Perceived fairness' is a huge issue when it comes to running a functional strata meeting.
Strata corps are run by volunteers and aren't always the most sophisticated operators. Managing the installation/billing of an EV charging network is like running a small utility and is just beyond the scope of most Councils. Consequently, you see a lot of buildings that have been rough-ed in for EV chargers, where the Strata just sits on their hands and does nothing because they don't fully understand what they have, what the limitations of the building are, or who to talk to. Every option requires an expensive commitment, and is extremely hard to do if you only have a handful of initial EV owners.
What I would really like to see is an approach that makes it feasible for the developer to install the finished meters without requiring crazy electrical systems - either with fewer/simpler non-networked meters that are shared (or installed in shared 'common property' parking stalls). Would it be completely crazy in our modern world to have an EV charger shared between 2 stalls, and each person has the right to charge every other day? Alternatively, have the developer just install 1-2 DC fast charging station per building (with utility grade metering and direct credit card billing), and forget the individual Level 2 chargers entirely.
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Newf
Crew Member
True, totally agree. A win win when you have your own dedicated outlet.
The only difference is you can park an ICE vehicle in "any" available parking spot. Not so much if you have an EV that needs charging.
The company allowed him to choose and he picked the EV not only for the cheaper operating costs but also as a way to reduce his/their carbon footprint. It's becoming more important to some and maybe more so down the road. Putting in a few more outlets at the main office will solve these charging issues.
I live in Langford on the Island and it's amazing the amount of densification that has occurred in the last few years and continues. I'm sure many of the residents walk, bike or use public transit but my "guess" is that the majority of them will still have 1 or two vehicles, making the situation worse for charging EV's. The relatively few public places with EV's will not meet demand if governments continue to mandate the transition to EV's. Providing charging stations must not be a good profitable business model or else they would be popping up in numbers everywhere. A couple of charging outlets at gas stations is not going to cut it IMO.
Sorry to continue to derail your thread. Love reading your posts about your Lightning.
