Montreal urban fish farmers say their Arctic char cuts greenhouse gases and waste
MONTREAL - A warehouse basement in an industrial area of Montreal, near the intersection of two highways, feels about as far from a fish habitat as it gets.
Aquaculture improving?..The Fish Farm Thread
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The Fish Are Talking - Thank you Trudeau and Ministers
Open Letter to Prime Minister Trudeau and Fisheries Ministers past and present: August 14, 2023 Dear Prime Minister Trudeau, Joyce Murray, Bernadette Jordan and Minister of Fisheries Diane Lebouthillier, I am writing to thank you for your roles in what is rapidly becoming one of the most...
alexandramorton.typepad.com
https://alexandramorton.typepad.com/.a/6a0120a56ab882970c02c1b25ce6ec200d-800wi
wildmanyeah
Crew Member
I guess i'll post a response since i seen this coming. Elmo convent left off 2013, conveniently left out area 12 gillnet as well
She failed to talk about ocean conditions and the triple dip La Niña
"Long-lasting La Niña This particular La Niña, which started in September 2020 but is considered three years old because it affected three different winters, was unusual and one of the longest on record."
She failed to talk about how there was a huge return of pinks to russia and alaska this year tanking the market
Pretty typical response from her, any good returns are because they removed the farms, any bad returns is because they have not removed enough farms.
and were will we be when El Niño returns and salmon tank like they did when the blob stuck around? will the removal of fish farms save the day? where will Elmo be??? It will be back to salmon numbers are crashing we need to remove all the fish farms...
www.spokesman.com
She failed to talk about ocean conditions and the triple dip La Niña
"Long-lasting La Niña This particular La Niña, which started in September 2020 but is considered three years old because it affected three different winters, was unusual and one of the longest on record."
She failed to talk about how there was a huge return of pinks to russia and alaska this year tanking the market
Pretty typical response from her, any good returns are because they removed the farms, any bad returns is because they have not removed enough farms.
and were will we be when El Niño returns and salmon tank like they did when the blob stuck around? will the removal of fish farms save the day? where will Elmo be??? It will be back to salmon numbers are crashing we need to remove all the fish farms...
El Nino is bad news for salmon and steelhead
The little troublemaker is back. It’s bad-but-expected news for salmon and steelhead runs up and down the West Coast, including those that return to the Snake and Columbia rivers.
www.spokesman.com
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A quote directly from the article
"It will be important for you to review returns for Quatsino, Gold River, the Central Coast, Port Hardy and Clayoquot Sound to determine if those heavily-farmed regions have enjoyed the same remarkable rebound."
It appears the writers of the paper acknowledge the importance of trying to get data to support their case.
"It will be important for you to review returns for Quatsino, Gold River, the Central Coast, Port Hardy and Clayoquot Sound to determine if those heavily-farmed regions have enjoyed the same remarkable rebound."
It appears the writers of the paper acknowledge the importance of trying to get data to support their case.
Thanks OF, for pointing this out. I understand industry pundits' sensitivity & frustration at having their industry scrutinized - and one of the longest-time key individuals within that context is Alex - among many hundreds of other often unknown or unrecognized independent researchers.
So, she has become the target for their frustration - irrespective of whether or not she occasionally makes key points & observations.
It's too bad (IMHO) most of these pundits and defenders don't also critique key individuals within DFO Aquaculture & Yves Bastion for putting them in the place of having to defend themselves - as this industry has been exempt from actual environmental assessments since inception - refereed processes which can provide reasonably fair and unbiased estimations of scope and intensity of potential impacts. It's what other industries often have to go through BEFORE they are allowed to begin operations.
Why wasn't issues like: background levels of sea lice; the extent of plumes from ONPSF sites/operations modelled and tested; locations of sensitive species-specific nearshore rearing areas for juvenile salmon identified and protected; and Pacific salmon species-specific immune and mortality responses to diseases established, amplified and released into the environment by the ONPSFA known BEFORE the ONPSFA industry was allowed to begin operations?
I think we all know the answers to these questions: dishonesty, manipulation, conflicts of interest and collusion within the Aquaculture Branch of DFO. That's where the finger needs to point for setting up why this divisiveness, acrimony & antagonism exists & is maintained, IMHO. The "Honour of the Crown" has been very tarnished by the actions of these individuals, IMHO.
In addition - they tarnish everyone else in DFO, erode trust, cause potential impacts to wild stocks to happen due to their negligence, and put the department in a position of liability. No wonder the Fisheries Minister has been a revolving door lately. Who would want to take that entrenched dysfunction on and try to change it?
Some of these key individuals have already quietly made their departure from the department - some of them taking up key roles in the aquaculture corporations they have always really worked for - while the taxpayer has paid their salary. I think they also have seen the end coming and bailed.
And to whom does doubt about impacts benefit?
To whom does the status quo benefit?
To whom does the lack of responsible science-based evidence benefit?
Who vetoes key but embarrassing research results?
Certainly not the people who are afraid of the impacts from the open net-pen industry onto salmon stocks we all depend on; and need better info to base decisions on.
I think generally the science illustrating and benchmarking impacts to adjacent local Pacific salmon stocks has now matured and surpassed the ability of key individuals within DFO Aquaculture to lie and gatekeep and maintain the status-quo using doubt as currency. The ONPSFA industry is now in crises - and the rotating door of who's going to get the challenge as the current Fisheries Minister portfolio holder; and the rapidly changing position of executive director of the BCSFA - reflects this crisis, IMHO. The investors are nervous about the future of the investment.
I will remain neutral until the other key stocks as mentioned are analyzed and compared to non-salmon farmed areas as well. We will see what that outcome is.
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wildmanyeah
Crew Member
What are non salmon farmed area stocks now? Elmo seems say fraser stocks are now free from fish farms?
"Also of note, the 2023 Fraser River sockeye test fishery is showing a remarkable increase in over the previous 3 generations. These sockeye passed through the Discovery Islands as juveniles in 2021, when all the salmon farms in along the narrow channels had been removed. DFO has increased their preseason estimate of the Early Stuart sockeye return by 50%! This population had to navigate the devastating Big Bar slide and yet their offspring are showing an uptick in survival!"
all the same stocks pass by port hardy too lol people know where area 12 is right lol, the pink salmon returns this year are far to brod from russia, to alaska, to nass, to skeena, to campbell river, to fraser to Washington state.
thinking some removal of farms in discovery has caused all this is a mockery of science, but it is a good opportunity, to say see look its working.
also early stuart actually almost all only age 5 class fish, the slide indeed wiped out the age 4 fish. There were very little offspring that made it.
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Thanks WMY for your post - and great questions/observations. I support the discussion using science and data to support assertions and accountability for decision-makers.
As far as juvie migration goes - I think we all know it is a complex topic - esp on the species-specific diversion rates/paths between SVI verses NVI migratory routes from the Fraser.
But generally - many if not most of the Fraser stocks migrate thru the Discovery Islands and then thru the outside of the Broughtons and QCS on their way out most years - if they make it that far, even. Timing and lengths of stay @ specific locations are often species-specific - as well as stock- and size-specific. It would take some time/days to dig-up all the known information on smolt migration from different stocks/species from the Fraser to Port Hardy area - and lay it out in a comprehensive understanding.
And all of this extensive knowledge/research on smolt migration and nearshore habitat usage further illustrates & confirms how corrupted DFO Aquaculture mandarins are IMHO when they still continue to deny that these differences exist since they don't wish to do any environmental assessments on ONPSFA - where even Kristi Miller corrected them about this on the bottom of page 276:
She is not the 1st, only, nor last person to expose the unsupported narratives & lies from key individuals in DFO Aquaculture.
And more importantly - it isn't just the Fraser stocks at some level of risk from ONPSFA locations/operations. Tofino area ONP operations are also likely having an impact on WCVI Chinook juvies as explained in posts 2887, 2889 & 2899 on page 145 in this thread.
And yes, it is a better year for odd-year pinks this year. Some areas of the coast have a predominant either odd or even year stocks.
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wildmanyeah
Crew Member
just seen a lot of people claiming that these returns with increase survival are because of fish farm removals. Yes those removals may have helped survival but the trend for this year is to far reaching to make it the sole claim.
I think in the next few years we will probably see uptick in survival because of the 3 cold water ocean winters we just had. If the warm water blob returns we may be right back down to where we were post 2015.
Where will elmo be then? where will her promises of increase returns be?
I think in the next few years we will probably see uptick in survival because of the 3 cold water ocean winters we just had. If the warm water blob returns we may be right back down to where we were post 2015.
Where will elmo be then? where will her promises of increase returns be?
B.C. First Nations coalition seeks leave to join case to support salmon farm closures
VICTORIA - A coalition representing 19 British Columbia First Nations and the Union of B.C. Indian Chiefs has applied jointly to the Federal Court to intervene in a case involving
If DFO had been doing a competent job of obtaining, analyzing and communicating data, all the while keeping in mind that the protection of wild salmon was their main objective, then people like Morton would not be required. Sadly, this has not been the case, hence the position we are in now.
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Pacific Salmon Commission raises forecast for B.C. Fraser River pink salmon run
VICTORIA - The run of pink salmon in British Columbia's Fraser River is exceeding expectations this summer.
DFO science advice processes need overhaul, say scientists « Pacific Salmon Foundation
July 31, 2023 Canada needs an independent scientific body to provide strengthened fisheries science advice that can help Fisheries and Oceans Canada (DFO) fulfill its legal duty to protect and […]
psf.ca
G
gone fishin
Guest
Fish Farms still in denial and their claims and excuses are in high gear.
The sooner we get these Fish Farms out of our waters the better!
"I've been looking at pink salmon migrating out of the Fraser since 2005, and when these fish went out to sea as juveniles in 2022 they looked better than any generation I have looked at since 2005," she said. "By that I mean they did not have sea lice. These fish are the first generation of pink salmon to go through completely clean, no salmon farms in the Discovery Islands."
Pacific Salmon Commission raises forecast for B.C. Fraser River pink salmon run - Victoria Times Colonist
And more bad pr for fish farms on the knowledge network tonight
150 Stories that Shape British Columbia - E39 - Alex Morton | Knowledge.ca
The sooner we get these Fish Farms out of our waters the better!
"I've been looking at pink salmon migrating out of the Fraser since 2005, and when these fish went out to sea as juveniles in 2022 they looked better than any generation I have looked at since 2005," she said. "By that I mean they did not have sea lice. These fish are the first generation of pink salmon to go through completely clean, no salmon farms in the Discovery Islands."
Pacific Salmon Commission raises forecast for B.C. Fraser River pink salmon run - Victoria Times Colonist
And more bad pr for fish farms on the knowledge network tonight
150 Stories that Shape British Columbia - E39 - Alex Morton | Knowledge.ca
Fish farms, they play alot of games, poker, where bluffing is standard, chess, where figuring out the next move before the opponent, horse shoes, where getting the data close is good enough, blind mans bluff, putting a blind fold on the public, magic, where they can create information that suits them.
I read they will lose 3300 jobs if they close down, I wonder just how many are employed by these guys? Are they counting the folks that make the imported antibiotics? The imported fish feed, because some is, lobbyists, scientists hired to find nothing and even repute their own previous findings they paid for, or anyone that touches anything related to fish farms? Political contributions? Kick backs?
I read that they want to sue the government for not giving them more leases? When did a lease become an inherent right or obligation? This is a multi billion dollar industry so just how much of that goes into government coffers? To the 3300 employed? From what I can find the actual cost of the water leases is negligible, a few thousand dollars per farm.
Misinformation, they now state that countries like Norway embrace FF's, true, BUT in Norway they have to build massive machines, ships or mobile pens AND they still have to do more monitoring of sea lice, viruses and effluent than in BC.
A side not, I read a recent fisher caught a sockeye that was covered in seal ice, there is a good chance that sockeye was one that didn't go way off shore but hugged the coastline off east Vancouver Island where some FF's moved to, maybe, a chance. A chance because not many other fish are showing a large number of sea lice, I think the comment came from around Sooke/Port Renfrew.
First the decline of salmon was due to global warming and now suddenly a slightly lower water temperature but still higher than when these declines were happening is being credited to a resurgence of the first wave of returning fish since farms were moved. A fluke no doubt but FF have it both ways, decline due to warmer oceans and resurgence due to cooler but still warmer oceans than when they championed warm seas.
So much bad information too, the head BC vet who happened to work for the FF at the same time kept insisting there was no Norwegian virus even after it was found in rivers systems as genetically the same. He was able to resign quietly
They must spend a ton of money on politicians here is a link to a DFO study done in 2012 detailing decades of misinformation.
www.wildfirst.ca
This study tracked PRV right back to the introduction of the FFs. A Norway study found that it kills off around 20% of all salmon, considering not ALL Chinook would be infected at once that 20% number is interesting, because if each year there is a 20% drop then in about 30 years well here we were 3 years ago. Desperate and drastic measures needed to rebuild wild stocks.
How can this industry be believed, they knew what they were doing and didn't care, some government employees' knew and either didn't care or were under threat of losing their jobs.
Now the FF are suing the government for not renewing these virus factories. The government mandates entire chicken farms be wiped out if there is a notion of disease just in case it transmits to humans or why not let the wild boars run rampant and ignore unscientific facts or better yet create false facts that say they a cuddly little things. What if PRV/ISA has been affecting Orca's health apart from less food in the water? It seems to me if that was the case it would be supressed as well and used for some political advantage, what I have no idea.
You know I could have swore the the NDP's Horgan said they wanted to end the FFs, but it seems they backtracked complaining about job losses which brings back the, just how many job losses. How many will lose their jobs if FF continue unregulated or at all? Maybe the Norway and other countries idea of mobile fully contained FF's is the way to go IF FFs want to stick around.
I always thought that if FFs were that certain of their claims they could have voluntarily shut down for a few years just to prove their claims but, billions of dollars. How much of those multimillions ended up in Canada, in BC?
I just wanted to add to this and the Orca decline. Morton has described salmon as having to be athletes and the sick ones often get eaten first so I was considering the virus loads the Black Fish (Orcas') must be consuming if they are getting the sickest fish all/most the time. Even the healthiest individual can contract a disease if exposed to high loads of a virus over a long time. Have there been any necropsy reports on dead whales been published, I don't mean the typical "they are not eating enough" or "we don't know" reports. Has here been any blood work done? Like how would PRV or ISA react in a mammal? Is the whale's system fighting off a virus so often that other internal systems start to fail or not work as good?
Orca numbers;
With the cessation of capture and shootings, the population slowly increased to a peak of 96-98 whales in the mid-1990s. However, in just five years from 1996 to 2001 the population rapidly declined by 20 percent to 78 whales.
20%?
In the early 1980s, farms were run largely as small-scale operations, with small businesses or even families running individual sites. For the first 15 years of the business the industry didn’t grow very much.
80's to around 94/95 then "growth"
87,000 tonnes 3x MORE since 1995
Just another thought. Sort of like, toe bone connected to the foot bone, connected to the ankle bone, connected to the ..... Not scientific at all, just odd coincidences
I read they will lose 3300 jobs if they close down, I wonder just how many are employed by these guys? Are they counting the folks that make the imported antibiotics? The imported fish feed, because some is, lobbyists, scientists hired to find nothing and even repute their own previous findings they paid for, or anyone that touches anything related to fish farms? Political contributions? Kick backs?
I read that they want to sue the government for not giving them more leases? When did a lease become an inherent right or obligation? This is a multi billion dollar industry so just how much of that goes into government coffers? To the 3300 employed? From what I can find the actual cost of the water leases is negligible, a few thousand dollars per farm.
Misinformation, they now state that countries like Norway embrace FF's, true, BUT in Norway they have to build massive machines, ships or mobile pens AND they still have to do more monitoring of sea lice, viruses and effluent than in BC.
A side not, I read a recent fisher caught a sockeye that was covered in seal ice, there is a good chance that sockeye was one that didn't go way off shore but hugged the coastline off east Vancouver Island where some FF's moved to, maybe, a chance. A chance because not many other fish are showing a large number of sea lice, I think the comment came from around Sooke/Port Renfrew.
First the decline of salmon was due to global warming and now suddenly a slightly lower water temperature but still higher than when these declines were happening is being credited to a resurgence of the first wave of returning fish since farms were moved. A fluke no doubt but FF have it both ways, decline due to warmer oceans and resurgence due to cooler but still warmer oceans than when they championed warm seas.
So much bad information too, the head BC vet who happened to work for the FF at the same time kept insisting there was no Norwegian virus even after it was found in rivers systems as genetically the same. He was able to resign quietly
They must spend a ton of money on politicians here is a link to a DFO study done in 2012 detailing decades of misinformation.
Open net pen fish farm research
Read the science behind open net pen fish farms and how they put wild Pacific salmon at risk.
www.wildfirst.ca
How can this industry be believed, they knew what they were doing and didn't care, some government employees' knew and either didn't care or were under threat of losing their jobs.
Now the FF are suing the government for not renewing these virus factories. The government mandates entire chicken farms be wiped out if there is a notion of disease just in case it transmits to humans or why not let the wild boars run rampant and ignore unscientific facts or better yet create false facts that say they a cuddly little things. What if PRV/ISA has been affecting Orca's health apart from less food in the water? It seems to me if that was the case it would be supressed as well and used for some political advantage, what I have no idea.
You know I could have swore the the NDP's Horgan said they wanted to end the FFs, but it seems they backtracked complaining about job losses which brings back the, just how many job losses. How many will lose their jobs if FF continue unregulated or at all? Maybe the Norway and other countries idea of mobile fully contained FF's is the way to go IF FFs want to stick around.
I always thought that if FFs were that certain of their claims they could have voluntarily shut down for a few years just to prove their claims but, billions of dollars. How much of those multimillions ended up in Canada, in BC?
I just wanted to add to this and the Orca decline. Morton has described salmon as having to be athletes and the sick ones often get eaten first so I was considering the virus loads the Black Fish (Orcas') must be consuming if they are getting the sickest fish all/most the time. Even the healthiest individual can contract a disease if exposed to high loads of a virus over a long time. Have there been any necropsy reports on dead whales been published, I don't mean the typical "they are not eating enough" or "we don't know" reports. Has here been any blood work done? Like how would PRV or ISA react in a mammal? Is the whale's system fighting off a virus so often that other internal systems start to fail or not work as good?
Orca numbers;
With the cessation of capture and shootings, the population slowly increased to a peak of 96-98 whales in the mid-1990s. However, in just five years from 1996 to 2001 the population rapidly declined by 20 percent to 78 whales.
20%?
In the early 1980s, farms were run largely as small-scale operations, with small businesses or even families running individual sites. For the first 15 years of the business the industry didn’t grow very much.
80's to around 94/95 then "growth"
87,000 tonnes 3x MORE since 1995
Just another thought. Sort of like, toe bone connected to the foot bone, connected to the ankle bone, connected to the ..... Not scientific at all, just odd coincidences
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Fisheries and Oceans Canada (Re), 2021 OIC 37
Date: 2022-01-06OIC file number: 3218-01365Institution file number: A-2017-01222/DSP
another good one on the WCVI Chinook PRv disease issue (attached):
p.11:"Piscine orthoreovirus - The first and second strongest associations between pathogen load and a response variable in the study were between
PRV load and the viral disease development PC1 (VDDPC1) in liver (β = 0.60, T247.4 = 12.2, p < 0.001, n = 263) and gill (β = 0.44, T281.4 = 9.4, p < 0.001, n = 292) tissue (Figures 4, 5)."
P.15: "We provided the first evidence of the potential impacts of PRV on both host gene expression and tissue pathology in wild juvenile Chinook salmon, findings that were highly consistent with observations in cultured fish of the same species (Di Cicco et al., 2018)"
And these too:
link.springer.com
and yet again here's DFO's misleading public powerpoint from last summer 2022 on PRv:
p.11:"Piscine orthoreovirus - The first and second strongest associations between pathogen load and a response variable in the study were between
PRV load and the viral disease development PC1 (VDDPC1) in liver (β = 0.60, T247.4 = 12.2, p < 0.001, n = 263) and gill (β = 0.44, T281.4 = 9.4, p < 0.001, n = 292) tissue (Figures 4, 5)."
P.15: "We provided the first evidence of the potential impacts of PRV on both host gene expression and tissue pathology in wild juvenile Chinook salmon, findings that were highly consistent with observations in cultured fish of the same species (Di Cicco et al., 2018)"
And these too:
Assessing the role of Piscine orthoreovirus in disease and the associated risk for wild Pacific salmon - BMC Biology
This paper is a response to Polinski, M. P. et al. Innate antiviral defense demonstrates high energetic efficiency in a bony fish. BMC Biology 19, 138 (2021). https://doi.org/10.1186/s12915-021-01069-2
link.springer.com
and yet again here's DFO's misleading public powerpoint from last summer 2022 on PRv:
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