Strategy for the Northern and Southern Resident Killer Whales

[SpringVelocity]

Here something even more interesting and little scary. The document that DFO has on their website to comment on keeps changing. Just got updated a week ago. That is interesting it got changed just when the environmental groups launched their lawsuit. mmmm. Look at the date on first document.

http://registrelep-sararegistry.gc.ca/document/default_e.cfm?documentID=1341

 

[searun]

The central problem here is the Minister directed DFO staff to identify the least cost recovery options. If they are allowed to stick to this policy directive, that means we will see a continuation of the policy and program funding decisions that landed us in the current Chinook regime.

Look closely at the funding cuts to hatchery programs, habitat improvement, protection etc. The Robertson hatchery production was at one point 12.5 million smolts released, and now it is 6.5 million. One example. Size at age of chinook has also been declining over the past decade. Likely due to the focus on lowering cost of production at our hatchery facilities. Rather than selecting the largest adults for brood stock, they are simply mixing all the eggs and milt into one homogenous bin - little wonder we have successively smaller fish. Path of least cost isn't a wise choice. Size at age has been identified as a factor contributing to less food availability for SRKW - successive government policy decisions has largely led us here.

Successive governments have ignored emerging issues such as pinniped predation, habitat loss, pollution etc. We have to hold this government's feet to the fire to recognize that cheaping out on the Chinook file is a recipe for continued problems.

 

[GLG]

That is wonderful but yet again how valid is this data when the Northern Resident population is doing this. Same threats and noise and PCB as Southern pods. Look at the values from 1975. This paper you keep referencing is also heavily weighted on statistical analysis and theory.

View attachment 40273

The journal that published this paper is "Nature" the gold standard in science. Is this paper the be all end all? No it's just part of the science that is involved with finding the evidence. It's like a giant puzzle that when papers like this get put together with others the picture emerges. More research and more papers helps us make better decisions. Not someone's ideas on social media.

Same threats ... yes but it's the extent of those treats. Clearly they get first crack at the salmon because they are more abundant there and clearly there is less boat traffic (noise).

This anti-science / conspiracy thinking you have had as of late is troubling.

 

[OldBlackDog]

The central problem here is the Minister directed DFO staff to identify the least cost recovery options. If they are allowed to stick to this policy directive, that means we will see a continuation of the policy and program funding decisions that landed us in the current Chinook regime.

Look closely at the funding cuts to hatchery programs, habitat improvement, protection etc. The Robertson hatchery production was at one point 12.5 million smolts released, and now it is 6.5 million. One example. Size at age of chinook has also been declining over the past decade. Likely due to the focus on lowering cost of production at our hatchery facilities. Rather than selecting the largest adults for brood stock, they are simply mixing all the eggs and milt into one homogenous bin - little wonder we have successively smaller fish. Path of least cost isn't a wise choice. Size at age has been identified as a factor contributing to less food availability for SRKW - successive government policy decisions has largely led us here.

Successive governments have ignored emerging issues such as pinniped predation, habitat loss, pollution etc. We have to hold this government's feet to the fire to recognize that cheaping out on the Chinook file is a recipe for continued problems.

The hatchery programs have been cut for years.
Further, the amount of marked coho has been dramatically dropped.

When they were confronted on this they said it was the budgets.

All the federal hatchery could triple their output, however they need to do so NOW.
Bet that will not be on the table unless some group gets it to the press.

 

[GLG]

The central problem here is the Minister directed DFO staff to identify the least cost recovery options. If they are allowed to stick to this policy directive, that means we will see a continuation of the policy and program funding decisions that landed us in the current Chinook regime.

Look closely at the funding cuts to hatchery programs, habitat improvement, protection etc. The Robertson hatchery production was at one point 12.5 million smolts released, and now it is 6.5 million. One example. Size at age of chinook has also been declining over the past decade. Likely due to the focus on lowering cost of production at our hatchery facilities. Rather than selecting the largest adults for brood stock, they are simply mixing all the eggs and milt into one homogenous bin - little wonder we have successively smaller fish. Path of least cost isn't a wise choice. Size at age has been identified as a factor contributing to less food availability for SRKW - successive government policy decisions has largely led us here.

Successive governments have ignored emerging issues such as pinniped predation, habitat loss, pollution etc. We have to hold this government's feet to the fire to recognize that cheaping out on the Chinook file is a recipe for continued problems.

You may want to read this paper. It may change your view on hatchery broodstock selection.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/faf.12272

 

[Cuba Libre]

I think there are many more issues to the demise of the killers whales than are being recognized. I often question the herring fishing management, as herring are an important piece to the food chain, and chinook numbers are dwindling in part to the amount of salmon fry that are predated upon as they leave their native streams by seal and sea lions, that normally would feed on the abundance of herring. I support a cull on the seals and seal lions, but IMO, without addressing the herring fishery, it won't make a lot of difference. Once upon a time, you could troll for salmon, and find bait with relative ease. That hasn't been the case of late. I have fished Kitty, Grant's Reef and Sentry without seeing hardly any bait. Opinions?

The herring fishery is an easy target for those concerned about our salmon stocks However after seeing just how the fishery is managed these days , compared to earlier, I dont see that it is THE issue that should be addressed first. Annually my partners and I head out in March to jig herring for bait-- the size of schools and the total mileage of herring spawns inside the Strait is consistently good. And the fishing !!!! I honestly dont know where you were fishing in the area of the Hump because my experience and that of my acquaintances is exactly the opposite. Massive bait schools at times blanking out the sounder ./ Now we know that not all schools were herring. Hake, Pcod, and others were in the mix--- but drag a coyote spoon below the schools and invariably the spring that took the bait was loaded with herring-- from 3" to 7". Others here have said that if salmon were as closely regulated as Gulf herring, we would not have the problems that we are having. I believe that.

 

[SpringVelocity]

The journal that published this paper is "Nature" the gold standard in science. Is this paper the be all end all? No it's just part of the science that is involved with finding the evidence. It's like a giant puzzle that when papers like this get put together with others the picture emerges. More research and more papers helps us make better decisions. Not someone's ideas on social media.

Same threats ... yes but it's the extent of those treats. Clearly they get first crack at the salmon because they are more abundant there and clearly there is less boat traffic (noise).

This anti-science / conspiracy thinking you have had as of late is troubling.

I fail to see how I can be anti-science being the engineering field. Yes but you just proved something didn't you by what you just said? Why are Northern whales listed on SARA? You said it yourself they don't have same extent of threats as southerns. These new proposed closures have to do with Northern whales. Sorry I am pointing out the obvious, and if you see it as conspiracy so be it.

 

[ziggy]

The journal that published this paper is "Nature" the gold standard in science. Is this paper the be all end all? No it's just part of the science that is involved with finding the evidence. It's like a giant puzzle that when papers like this get put together with others the picture emerges. More research and more papers helps us make better decisions. Not someone's ideas on social media.

Same threats ... yes but it's the extent of those treats. Clearly they get first crack at the salmon because they are more abundant there and clearly there is less boat traffic (noise).

This anti-science / conspiracy thinking you have had as of late is troubling.

It’s interesting the “first crack at the salmon”,that was my thought as well. What I find curious though is that these SRK whales travel great distances, yet seem to be unable to figure out where the best fishing is, and when?Why do the whales not move to more productive areas of the salmon migration route if there is a shortage at their traditional spots? Creating “sanctuaries” closer to the mouth of the Strait would make more sense would it not, where the fish are more abundant, less boat noise , no whale watchers and less pollution. Or is the theory that the SRKW are unable to adapt and find new hunting areas and prefer to hang around the more urban areas.

 

[GLG]

I fail to see how I can be anti-science being the engineering field. Yes but you just proved something didn't you by what you just said? Why are Northern whales listed on SARA? You said it yourself they don't have same extent of threats as southerns. These new proposed closures have to do with Northern whales. Sorry I am pointing out the obvious, and if you see it as conspiracy so be it.

I objected to your comment that the two were equal and can be compared. I never said anything about what I thought of the proposed changes for the northern whales. So please don't assume that I think something that I don't.

As for the anti-science comment ...... perhaps a PM was in order rather then a post. I am troubled by what I see in social media as of late and the dumpster fires that it can produce. I think we all need to make an effort to not use language that casts doubt in science when clearly it can become a snowball of FUD and conspiracy theories. Garbage in garbage out. Don't take it personal I was more concerned that many of us on here, that have been known to work with the facts like you, not slip into using the tactics of FUD to prove our points or advance our position.
Respectively, GLG

 

[GLG]

It’s interesting the “first crack at the salmon”,that was my thought as well. What I find curious though is that these SRK whales travel great distances, yet seem to be unable to figure out where the best fishing is, and when?Why do the whales not move to more productive areas of the salmon migration route if there is a shortage at their traditional spots? Creating “sanctuaries” closer to the mouth of the Strait would make more sense would it not, where the fish are more abundant, less boat noise , no whale watchers and less pollution. Or is the theory that the SRKW are unable to adapt and find new hunting areas and prefer to hang around the more urban areas.

We know that the residents diverged from the transits around 400 thousand years ago. That means residents are set in their ways and have no choice on what they eat. The question becomes where do they eat. The Fraser is the world's largest salmon river by a fair bunch and the whales have been programed by evolution to take advantage of that fact. This knowledge may be hard wired and they may not be capable of say going up to Port Alberni to find a new source of food. We may be able to adapt but we can't expect them to based on our abilities. Can they learn? I'm sure they can but we might be asking too much to change for our convenience. Best to study what they need, where they need it and at what time they need it if we want them to stick around. Our generation is being asked to answer the call. I wish it was not so and I wish we could just go back to how things were before but clearly we need to do something. I can't wish away the problem nor can I hope that it will go away if I ignore it.

 

[ziggy]

This really isn’t a Transient/Resident issue but rather two families of Residents both of which are fish eaters,one of which is doing well, the other not.The SRKW are literally swimming through schools of salmon in order to return to former fishing areas where there is less abundance, more noise and more pollution. This makes no sense given we equate the Whales with superior intelligence, surely they can figure out after several years (or sooner)that things have changed. Think about it, they pass through a quiet area at the mouth of Juan de Fuca, where there is little competition for the salmon they eat and in fact this area would be where the highest abundance of salmon is.They continue to head towards the approaches of the Fraser, where these same salmon numbers have significantly declined,some have now turned south to Puget Sound and some caught by fishermen, many by seals,so clearly less abundant.

Any animal that forages is hardwired to move on when there is no longer a food source in a specific area, hence the great migrations. I just don’t believe Orcas ,who, although called Resident, are actually quite mobile, can’t figure out,what even a cow could. I personally believe we are selling these whales short and feel the refuges are more based on trying to keep the whales within viewing range than on their well being . Are we encouraging them to exist in areas of high vessel traffic and pollutants for selfish reasons?

 

[chris73]

This really isn’t a Transient/Resident issue but rather two families of Residents both of which are fish eaters,one of which is doing well, the other not.The SRKW are literally swimming through schools of salmon in order to return to former fishing areas where there is less abundance, more noise and more pollution. This makes no sense given we equate the Whales with superior intelligence, surely they can figure out after several years (or sooner)that things have changed. Think about it, they pass through a quiet area at the mouth of Juan de Fuca, where there is little competition for the salmon they eat and in fact this area would be where the highest abundance of salmon is.They continue to head towards the approaches of the Fraser, where these same salmon numbers have significantly declined,some have now turned south to Puget Sound and some caught by fishermen, many by seals,so clearly less abundant.

Any animal that forages is hardwired to move on when there is no longer a food source in a specific area, hence the great migrations. I just don’t believe Orcas ,who, although called Resident, are actually quite mobile, can’t figure out,what even a cow could. I personally believe we are selling these whales short and feel the refuges are more based on trying to keep the whales within viewing range than on their well being . Are we encouraging them to exist in areas of high vessel traffic and pollutants for selfish reasons?

Not sure why you seem to think that the SRKW cannot adapt to changing food locations. In 2017 the SRKW barely ever entered the JdF but rather stayed near Swiftsure and other outside places. And for a good reason, summer of 2017 saw one of the worst Chinook runs through the JdF ever.

 

[ziggy]

It’s not me saying they can’t adapt, I actually said I found it hard to believe they couldn’t.

 

[ericl]

It’s not me saying they can’t adapt, I actually said I found it hard to believe they couldn’t.

I think that in this case the "why" doesn't matter; they very apparently can't.

The SRKW are literally swimming through schools of salmon in order to return to former fishing areas where there is less abundance, more noise and more pollution.

That is an assumption that I believe to be incorrect.

What I find curious though is that these SRK whales travel great distances, yet seem to be unable to figure out where the best fishing is, and when?

Dunno about the rest of you but I have the same problem

 

[cohochinook]

There were loads of salmon this winter in Howe Sound and lots around Vancouver and bit north in the spring. Didn't seen many resident orcas chasing them? Inability to adapt may be a downfall or perhaps its other issues that are really impacting them?

 

[ericl]

This paper you keep referencing is also heavily weighted on statistical analysis and theory.

I fail to see how I can be anti-science being the engineering field

What really matters is not how you see yourself, but how others see you.

 

[california]

The SRKW are literally swimming through schools of salmon in order to return to former fishing areas where there is less abundance, more noise and more pollution. This makes no sense given we equate the Whales with superior intelligence, surely they can figure out after several years (or sooner)that things have changed.

These animals have evolved over thousands of years along with the salmon runs to be in locations where they can reliably intercept salmon runs to ensure their survival. These ignorant anthropomorphic notions that they can just figure out where the salmon at any given time expressed on the forum are ridiculous. Historically (thousands of years) up until 50 or 60 years ago there were abundant runs of chinook salmon from spring until fall. Only recently have many of those runs, especially the early ones been severely depleted. For them to swim hundreds of extra miles to find runs when historic ones are not there takes ENERGY. these are high metabolism animals. Maybe they should be reading the fishing reports section of this thread, or calling up the other pods on the Orca phone, channel 26 to get reports to make the search more efficient. They require food all year round. The idiotic notion that because there are salmon at this time of year, so they cant be starving is also prevalent as we see from Ian in the video.

Face it, it's painfully obvious the majority of fisherman on the forum (not all) couldn't give 2 sh*ts about orcas. They care only about how many salmon they are allowed to bonk, and anything that interferes with that can go to hell, or in this case extinct.

 

[SpringVelocity]

What really matters is not how you see yourself, but how others see you.

Look who is talking. I see a selfish person who wants our fishery closed because his is.

 

[wildmanyeah]

Ever watched thoes documentaries about elephants in Africa where the matriarch take the herds to historic feeding grounds during drout.

I think whales are very much the same.

The abundance of salmon is not the problem In the months of July, August and September or October. In these months acoustic noise is the problem.

It’s the early run of chinooks in April, May and June where abundance is the issue. These early ones could use with some enhancement.

 

[Dave]

It’s the early run of chinooks in April, May and June where abundance is the issue. These early ones could use with some enhancement.

Not necessarily enhancement, that has been tried in the past with little success. What is needed is protection from fishing pressure, especially spring and early summer run Fraser chinook. This is where there must be buy in by Sto-Lo fishers.