New chinook regs for early fraser river run!!!

[Charlie]

I might have to question that "food for though" going from "... less than 500 chinook in 2004" to now would be one hell of a recovery? Not to mention that would also be one hell of a return ratio?

"Chinook salmon. Despite concerns regarding historic estimatesand the adequacy of current. assessments, the available data suggest thatchinook populations were formerly much more. abundant than now, and that populationabundance has been low since the mid-1970s. The data show a decline from 15,000in the 1950s to below 500 in the mid-1980s and 1990s_ Enhancement byTenderfoot. Hatchery had increased chinook escapements to the Squamish watershedby the mid-1990s, but relative abtmdances have remained below 1,000 chinook forthe watershed between 1997-2000, and were above 1,000 from 2001 -2003 before decreasingto less than 500 chinook in 2004.

"It is thought that enhancement chinook stocks by theTenderfoot hatchery resulted in a shift from stream-type chinook to ocean-typechinook in the 1980s.
http://www.psf.ca/files/SquamishRiverWatershedSalmonRecoveryPlan.pdf
Tenderfoot Creek Hatchery:
[TABLE="class: MsoNormalTable, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]StockWaterbody
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Run
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]BroodYear
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]ReleaseWaterbody
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]StageName
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]TotalReleased
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Cheakamus R
[/TD]
[TD]Fall
[/TD]
[TD]2008
[/TD]
[TD]Cheakamus R
[/TD]
[TD]Subyearling Smolt
[/TD]
[TD]200
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Cheakamus R
[/TD]
[TD]Fall
[/TD]
[TD]2008
[/TD]
[TD]Cheakamus R
[/TD]
[TD]Subyearling Smolt
[/TD]
[TD]17280
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Cheakamus R
[/TD]
[TD]Summer
[/TD]
[TD]2008
[/TD]
[TD]Tenderfoot Cr
[/TD]
[TD]Subyearling Smolt
[/TD]
[TD]67961
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Porteau Cv
[/TD]
[TD]Summer
[/TD]
[TD]2008
[/TD]
[TD]Porteau Cv
[/TD]
[TD]Subyearling Smolt - Seapen
[/TD]
[TD]494546
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

http://www.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/sep-pmvs/projects-projets/tenderfoot/tenderfoot-eng.htm

 

[mikep]

I know the squamish return is not huge but you have to include the ashlu, main stem squamish, and check. Also the data you posted says there were ~500,000 smolts released at porteu cove which is up howe sound. Even if 1.5% of 500,000 return this is 7500 fish, not a small number.

 

[fogged in]

Exactly my point when they only fish I am seeing caught are marbles and whites I am not thinking upper fraser watershed.

One thing we know for sure is the returns of Chinook overall on the West Coast of B.C. is generally in decline with perhaps a few exceptions!
Where would we be without the American Hatchery Chinook.
No one even mentions the Cowichan River Chinook run which if DFO choose to address would give them another reason to shut down the whole South Island, inside and outside.
DFO don't have a clue how many Chinook from the endangered Fraser run or Cowichan are being caught in the 50,000 plus Chinook taken in the North Island Troll or in the Naniamo area or anywhere else for that matter, including out of the River.
I question the conclusion of you guys who say these Naniamo fish are marbled and white and stubby nosed so they can't be part of the Endangered Fraser run.
DFO did not say that when they were asked about Nanaimo.
No doubt the Nanaimo guys are smarter than DFO...that wouldn't take much.
The old timers off Sooke used to say the big stubby nosed Chinook that always came thru in June were Columbia River Fish.
No real way of knowing if they were right or wrong.
I fish the Cowichan as a kid and we used to get many white springs right in the Bay in August...no doubt where they were going! I have caught white springs in Head Bay...know where that is?
White Springs show up in many runs other than the Harrison.
DFO says sporties off Sooke to Oak Bay take up to 5% of the endangered Fraser Run (that seems to be the number I have heard, correct me if I am wrong), so DFO will cut the Sporties in that area to next to nothing for 3 months to save a miniscule number of Fraser River Fish....maybe.
All the while leaving SOME other areas and a commercial troll fishery open....what sense does that make!
I would be the first person to step up and do my part to restoring the Chinook runs if it were done fairly and widespread.
Easy to say cause THAT JUST IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN because it is just too political.
We can debate this til the cows come home and it is not going to make a difference to the health of the Chinook that are in decline in so many of our rivers.
Sorry to say it, but the problem is huge, especially when you factor in the fish farms and the Native River fishery.
We Sports Fishermen are caught in an almost hopeless situation.
DFO DOES NOT HAVE THE ANSWER or the ability to solve the problem...they are just trying to do a balancing act between the Polititians, Commercial Interests and the Sporties as best they can, in order to keep a living income for themselves and their families...just like the Commercial Chinook fishery. Who can blame them for that.
And the sporties will take as many Chinook as they can within ever increasing limitations.
One fish a day would pretty much kill it so why not just close the whole thing down.....I am sure some on this site will blast me for saying that!
Sorry, I am rambling...that's my last word on this subject.

 

[Theb55]

Sportsfishers should get first dibs on all Chinook Salmon and Coho. Period. We agreed to that in exchange for giving up access to other salmon species. Last year in zone 20 we had slot fishing. Once the run got closer to the Fraser the DFO opened it wide. Oh, too bad the run had gone from zone 20 by then. DFO is an example of the Peter Principal run rampant. For those who don't know that principal, employees are promoted based on past successes. When they are no longer successful, they remain where they are because they are incompetent.

 

[scott craven]

In my mind once we have agreed to let DFO shut down Chinook fishing , we are done.
If we simply concede it could be shut forever.
While i wouldn't like it, I would continue to fish for one a day, one a week, or even one a month.
As with other regulations, once imposed they are seldom removed.

 

[Kildonan]

In my mind once we have agreed to let DFO shut down Chinook fishing , we are done.
If we simply concede it could be shut forever.

I agree, but all the finger pointing is getting this nowhere. It's not the Area G people's fault that they are permitted to fish. Don't blame those guys, they are just trying to eke out a living like the rest of us and they are playing in the rules given to them.

I was the guy that posted to close it, I said it in jest however I was PO'd where a buddy of mine was called unsportsmanlike where I know for a FACT, this is not the case. Again, just trying to make a living in the rules provided to him, that's all. Nothing unsportsmanlike.

People post damaging stuff here without having the facts.

And honestly, I don't have a clue how many Fraser fish are being taken there, I count on DFO to provide that info, AND THEY CAN'T!! Or won't.

My thinking is economic players are driving the decisions, certainly science and common sense isn't. But again, without being in on the decision making, nobody really knows for sure.

 

[Theb55]

When everything is totalled no fishing body adds more to the economy than sportsfishermen. Publicize a BC coastwise shutdown world wide and you would soon see the effect on the economy. Maybe we should request an entire shutdown, including fish farms for four to five years.

 

[Kildonan]

When I imply that "economic players" are driving things, I am talking Conservative Party of Canada supporters. But again, just speculating just like everybody else here.

 

[Aces]

Sportsfishers should get first dibs on all Chinook Salmon and Coho. Period. We agreed to that in exchange for giving up access to other salmon species. Last year in zone 20 we had slot fishing. Once the run got closer to the Fraser the DFO opened it wide. Oh, too bad the run had gone from zone 20 by then. DFO is an example of the Peter Principal run rampant. For those who don't know that principal, employees are promoted based on past successes. When they are no longer successful, they remain where they are because they are incompetent.

We were told about 7 yrs ago that sportfishermen had 1st access to Chinooks and Cohos after 1st nations but that seems to have changed

 

[Theb55]

What we need is for a lot of boats to go fishing over there, take pictures of the boats and post them all over the internet or have boat "problems" near them. Sort of like Shame the Johns which worked well until they found they were shaming judges, politicians and connected businessmen. The ideas is we need to organize and show that to DFO.

 

[Charter Tofino]

That's a horrible idea...

 

[Rockfish]

WHEN THE WATERING HOLL BEGINS TO DRY UP THE ANIMALS LOOK AT EACH OTHER DIFFERENTLY.

This is clearly an emotional issue with anglers on the south tip of Vancouver Island having done our part for Fraser Chinook runs of concern, while DFO’s recently released numbers for Fraser Chinook strongly indicate that the other sectors and even our fellow anglers in other locations have not made the same level of sacrifice to protect these runs. In some cases other sectors have essentially made no sacrifices at all while demanding even more from us. We are justifiably angry and if this thread is any indication lashing out in all directions and potentially further harming ourselves and fellow anglers in other locations.

We need to clearly understand the situation, what is happening, why it is happening, what are the facts in order to develop more effective strategies to achieve greater balance and fairness in the conservation efforts necessary to restore Fraser Chinook runs of concern. We are talking about access and allocation between sectors, the other factors such as habitat and fish farms are discussed in other threads.

In my opinion it is poor strategy to attack fellow anglers and demand their Chinook Fishery be sacrificed to the same extent ours is. This only weakens sport fishing as a sector and all the businesses that depend on us by fracturing the sport sector and decreasing our numbers. We need the support of all anglers to help us achieve fairer allocation decisions in the future off Victoria and Sooke. It also denies us the opportunity to go to other areas occasionally and fish larger Chinook. Some of those areas are not that far away and some can tow smaller boats to locations like Jordan River. A small number of us can also travel long distances on the water to those adjacent areas when the weather is good and fish occasionally. Do we really want to close that down and have DFO move those boundaries or completely close the west coast to all retention of Fraser Chinook as is currently the case off of Victoria and Sooke right now?

This will do very little for conservation because anglers take such a small percentage of these fish already, especially with the current Victoria and Sooke sport closure on Fraser spawners and the disparity with some other sectors is appalling; more about that later.

Keep in mind that some anglers in other locations (such as the Fraser River sport fishery) have also made serious sacrifices for conservation; we are not completely alone. Don’t be under any illusion that if the sport sector is closed down province wide that other sectors will close down, especially the massive Fraser River net fishery.

That said anglers in other locations need to understand that many anglers off Victoria and Sooke are upset because of what is perceive as a lack of support from many of you on this issue because you are not affected; for now anyway. Some feel that it is unfair that we are doing our part for conservation while others are not and that if you also feel the pain you will be spurred to action. This is not good strategy but it is understandable and let’s hope it does not come to that. Some of those with vested interests love to see us fighting among ourselves and since DFO is being pressured to do more about conservation as long as it is not those other interests that have to do it, we are making it easy for DFO. They can simply say they cut back the sport sector further for conservation, at the insistence of the sport sector.

We were all affected when it came to Halibut allocation and we have seen great effort from anglers in all locations on that issue. Remember that while the Fraser Chinook issue is driven by conservation needs it is also very much about allocation between sectors and now it appears reallocation of harvesting opportunities to Fraser Chinook using conservation as the rationalization to do so; again, more about that later.

To those few anglers in other areas that have got involved I say thank you. To most of you who have not; please do so. Write the Federal politicians (letters count and you don’t need a stamp) and drop into your local MP’s office and let them know this is an issue for you as a voter. You would not just be helping us, you would be helping yourselves.

 

[Theb55]

Well put. It's tough sitting here on SCVI with narrow slot fishing knowing DFO completely blew it last year. I even more appalled by the fact research has basically ceased under PM Harper's watch. The final nails are included In his latest budget.

 

[fogged in]

Sunday's Catch of wild Chinook Fraser or otherwise?


Sunday's catch of 20 pound Springs off Gabriola.
All wild...no way of telling where they are going, but no way of telling how the very same in appearance Springs caught off Sooke are going either. One area is closed for these wild fish, the other MUCH closer to the area of concern is open.
You figure it out GLG

 

[Rockfish]

View attachment 3770
Sunday's catch of 20 pound Springs off Gabriola.
All wild...no way of telling where they are going, but no way of telling how the very same in appearance Springs caught off Sooke are going either. One area is closed for these wild fish, the other MUCH closer to the area of concern is open.
You figure it out GLG

They are most likely wild but no way to know. DFO does not allow most of the Hatchery Chinook to be clipped so there are a lot of them out there being misidentified as wild fish. When you are stuck in a slot restriction and hatchery only fishery that is very frustrating.

 

[GLG]

View attachment 3770
Sunday's catch of 20 pound Springs off Gabriola.
All wild...no way of telling where they are going, but no way of telling how the very same in appearance Springs caught off Sooke are going either. One area is closed for these wild fish, the other MUCH closer to the area of concern is open.
You figure it out GLG

Look into the CWT program and see what has been caught in that area at that time of year.
We have years and years of data in there so do your homework.

What colour were they?
If white or marble chances are they are not the fish we are both worried about.
I hear what your saying but before you pull the trigger perhaps get some ammo and look for the target.
Shooting at the whole coast is not helping the debate.
GLG

 

[wolf]

LETS face it those fish travel both sides of the island and YES they will get caught ON both sides I wish I had the paper where it had the break down still area 19/20 is about 4th down on the list of user groups taking these fish !!!!!!IF this was truly about the conservation of this stock then more areas should be hit to protect them. they told us in the meetings we had that they dont travel down the inside yet the head returns told other wise ....HMMMMMM and said they travel the outside only in april/ may the strongest months on the west coast (so why a commercial opening then) LETS face it DFO has no clue they are trying to throw a band aid on a situation. they will never get any help from me EVER again unless they say ok we know its not 19/20 fault we will keep it open for you but in return we want all heads I dont think any guide would not help but shitting on us and then asking to **** on us over and over agin ....aaaahhh just cant see it happening.....


And btw doesnt matter if if the meat is white red or marbled thats genetics they can come from anywhere found that out working in knight inlet when we sent all the heads in we got fish that were born from all over the place....

 

[fogged in]

Look into the CWT program and see what has been caught in that area at that time of year.
We have years and years of data in there so do your homework.

What colour were they?
If white or marble chances are they are not the fish we are both worried about.
I hear what your saying but before you pull the trigger perhaps get some ammo and look for the target.
Shooting at the whole coast is not helping the debate.
GLG

Who is shooting the whole coast...not me. I have only posted on the North Island Commercial Troll Fishery and Nanaimo.
Sounds to me a knowledgeable guy like you is supporting this decisions of DFO to keep this Chinook sports fishery open in the Nanaimo area because you do not think they will catch any incidental Fraser Chinooks that are endangered.
I on the other hand based on over 50 years experience fishing the waters of V.I. feel differently.
Fair enough, we have differing opinions. You are not going to change my mind or I am guessing, me yours.
From one of your earlier posts it sounds to me you feel the same way about the North Island Commercial Troll fishery taking over 50,000 Chinook.
You would say "chances are they are not the fish we are both worried about"
Would you say "chances are" the 20 plus pound spring released off the Head Sunday was not one of the fish we are worried about". or DFO know best?
The DFO certainly do not know!!! However they do say in their own opening post that they are concerned about the incidental catch in that Commercial fishery.
I am well aware of the CWT program...have you ever read their stuff? Have a look
http://www.psc.org/info.htm
The problem I have is not with you, the Nanaimo fishermen or the North Coast Commercial Trollers.
My problem is with the DFO who work off a totally unreliable "MANAGEMENT MODEL" riddled with unreliable data, have way too much political interference, are influences by the big money interests and do little to address the REAL PROBLEM in a meaningful way.

 

[Theb55]

If there is a commercial salmon fishery, and for my part I see no reason not to have one, it should only be trollers. No seine, no gills, no farms! Period. No nets in rivers. Period

 

[JuandeOne]

Who is shooting the whole coast...not me. I have only posted on the North Island Commercial Troll Fishery and Nanaimo.
Sounds to me a knowledgeable guy like you is supporting this decisions of DFO to keep this Chinook sports fishery open in the Nanaimo area because you do not think they will catch any incidental Fraser Chinooks that are endangered.
I on the other hand based on over 50 years experience fishing the waters of V.I. feel differently.
Fair enough, we have differing opinions. You are not going to change my mind or I am guessing, me yours.
From one of your earlier posts it sounds to me you feel the same way about the North Island Commercial Troll fishery taking over 50,000 Chinook.
You would say "chances are they are not the fish we are both worried about"
Would you say "chances are" the 20 plus pound spring released off the Head Sunday was not one of the fish we are worried about". or DFO know best?
The DFO certainly do not know!!! However they do say in their own opening post that they are concerned about the incidental catch in that Commercial fishery.
I am well aware of the CWT program...have you ever read their stuff? Have a look
http://www.psc.org/info.htm
The problem I have is not with you, the Nanaimo fishermen or the North Coast Commercial Trollers.
My problem is with the DFO who work off a totally unreliable "MANAGEMENT MODEL" riddled with unreliable data, have way too much political interference, are influences by the big money interests and do little to address the REAL PROBLEM in a meaningful way.

Sorry guys I'm too lazy to type like the rest of you fine fellows so i will just say I agree 100% with Fogged's opinion on this. Anyone agruing to the contrary is simply blinded by their own selfish agenda.