N.S. fish farm rejected: risk to wild salmon.

[Dave]

Charlie, you haven't responded to my question regarding your campaign to remove salmon farms from your home state ... how's that working out? You spend much time schooling Canadians, but what about your farms? How are they better than BC's and why no bitching at them?

 

[Charlie]

Charlie, you haven't responded to my question regarding your campaign to remove salmon farms from your home state ... how's that working out? You spend much time schooling Canadians, but what about your farms? How are they better than BC's and why no bitching at them?

Dave really did not see the need! ClayoquotKid (turning out to be one of my best resources) actually posted a link that helps explain the answers that question. Actually, our farms are better than BCs. Same industry; however, very different owners, operating under very different principles, and most importantly very different LAWS!
:

Here's a study done on the ecosystem found on, around and beneath salmon farms - you may find it enlightening: http://salmonfarmscience.files.word...hic_impact_beneficial_effects_mariculture.pdf

I would suggest reading that link your friend posted a little closer? Actually, just read the “Executive summary” and it will answer your question:

“ This study shows that a typical floating fish pen system in Puget Sound is populated by a diverse group of over 100 species of seaweeds or invertebrates. These species provide a locally important component of the food web, providing enrichment for a variety of marine food web life including marine bird species. In this regard, the biofouling can be considered a "beneficial" effect of fish farming if we value diverse and richly-populated marine food webs. The popular media-distributed notion of fish farming habitats often suggests a biological wasteland, heavily impacted by fish feces, waste feed, antibiotics and chemicals. Nothing could be further from the truth for Washington State fish farms (and those in the State of Maine). Antibiotics are rarely used (vaccines are used instead), no sea lice problems exist due to naturally reduced salinity levels, and farm siting involves locations with fast currents or relatively great depth that distribute wastes over large areas where they may be incorporated into the food web while maintaining aerobic surficial sea bottom sediments.


​

I am NOT on any campaign to remove any Atlantic salmon feedlot or other type of farms that are NOT creating damage to the environment. Did you know it has been found (at least claimed) a clam or oyster farm can exist under “our” open net pens? No, I don’t know that for a fact; however, just suggest that possibility to anyone in Canada.

If you really don’t know the answer to why our farms are better just research the history of none other than your Marine Harvest. You will find they sold the last of their feedlot operations in the U.S. in 2005 in favor of moving their “open net pens” into Canadian waters. The answer there is easy – More government dollars - Less environmental laws = Less costs to those Norwegian companies equal more profit! The reason they stated was to consolidate their operations to reduce costs. In reality, the real reason – “NO” Norwegian open net pen company wants to spend their money to abide by those costly stricter U.S. ENVIROMENTAL LAWS, when all they have to do is move to Canada!

To ansser the “… regarding your campaign to remove salmon farms from your home state ... how's that working out?” I would say it has worked out just fine and rather nicely - WE HAVE “NO” NORWEGIAN ATLANTIC FEED LOTS OPERATIONS ANYWHERE IN THE U.S.A. DESTROYING OUR ENVIROMENT!

Now, just who is that idiot that would dare to suggest, “Nothing could be further from the truth for Washington State fish farms (and those in the State of Maine).” That would be a guy by the name of Dr. Jack Rensel and here is a short bio I ran across:

“Jack Rensel is a leading expert in aquaculture research and environmental issues. He was responsible for much of the basic research and analysis that led to the first federally-sanctioned state permits for net pen aquaculture in the U.S. Dr. Rensel conducts research on current aquaculture and food web topics, including the beneficial food web aspects of optimally sited commercial net pens, which constitutes a new frontier for further exploration using promising tools such as stable isotope analysis. With NOAA, USDA and industry support, he has been a partner with the AquaModel team in developing, testing and validating the comprehensive water column and benthic effects GIS-model for salmon or other fish species net pens that may be used for a single farm or array of farms throughout an entire coastal region. Dr. Rensel works on projects in North and South America, the Caribbean Sea, South East Asia and in other locations worldwide.
​

“Dr. Rensel is a recognized international expert on harmful algal bloom dynamics and has been involved in development and testing of mitigation strategies for farmed and wild stocks. He was lead author of a recent publication explaining how harmful blooms were strongly linked to extreme interannual variation of Fraser River sockeye salmon marine survival over the past 20 years found here.
​

“As principal of Rensel Associates Aquatic Sciences, he has written more than twenty peer-reviewed articles or book chapters and hundreds of technical reports. His clients include the largest seafood processing and distribution firm and the largest fish farming companies owned and operated in the U.S. He is also a consultant to Earth Justice Hawaii on water and sediment quality issues.​

So Dave, I would love for you to arrange and invite Dr. Jack Rensel up to Canada and do an independent evaluation of your “open net pens” and see how they compare to ours in Puget Sound (and even Maine). You might be surprised in the different practices used and their results especially when it comes to laws and the use of SLICE and antifouling practices. What you will be really surprised with are what your seafloors look like in comparison to ours.

Will also answer your question, with a question; are you suggesting, claiming, believe, or know Dr. Rensel’s findings are incorrect? If so, please provide that information as I assure - all hell will break loose down here in Washington and to my pleasure those unsustainable “open net pens” will be completely shut down!

BTW… The U.S. Court just overruled a NOAA approval for the expansion of those “open net pens,” until there is current evidence “proving” that expansion won’t cause any harm to the ESA listed species and no other environmental damage.

Now even with that… there simply and currently are “NO” carnivorous diadromous fish, be it Pacific or Atlantic salmon being raised in and/or by any fish lot that is “sustainable.” There never will be until those carnivores are feed other things than that very highly concentrated fishmeal and fish oil. You will actually find all those Norwegian fish food companies already understand their ENTIRE INDUSTRY is “NON SUSTAINABLE” and are actually working on trying to solve that problem.

Hence, the PR on their use of by products, which is basically just PR hype and their use of things like those “chicken feathers,” soybeans, etc. That gets us back to they are changing the DHA and other Omega-3 fatty acids in those farmed salmon. More “chicken feathers” and soybeans with less fishmeal and fish oil mean more Omega-6 and- less Omega-3. Simply put… no longer healthy eat more farmed salmon will mean – die of heart attack! How’s that for a PR campaign?

In the meantime, what is Norway really doing to address their Omega-3 problem! Do a little research there and you will find Norway is actually positioning itself to go after the worlds Antarctic Krill resource just to get their needed Omega-3 to feed those farmed Atlantic salmon. Personally, if one doesn’t want to pay the price for “wild” salmon, I would recommend NOT eating anything non-sustainable, save your money and start eating Omega-3 eggs!

 

[Birdsnest]

I cant believe I just read that. I really just cant believe it. From all your previous post about salmon farming there has never been a slightest hint that you would support any salmon farming, anywhere! I agree with the reasons you think your farm are so good but to believe that things here are so different here in canada is a long shot. Unbelievable. Shocking charlie, just shocking. I cant even find the words right now its just to unbelievable.

THanks for posting that I guess. A real EYE OPENER for me about your views.

 

[Birdsnest]

I dont think your sites are so different from ours neighbour:
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/...entire-stock-after-virus-found-154517265.html

Form the article:

Seattle-based American Gold Seafoods plans to remove more than a million pounds of Atlantic salmon from infected net pens in Rich Passage off the southern tip of Bainbridge Island. In April, the company noticed that fish were dying off at a fast rate. Test results this month confirmed the virus./QUOTE]

Wouldn't they be constantly testing for such viruses instead of just reacting to heavy mortalities and then confirming with a test?

 

[agentaqua]

Charlie: thanks so much for your last post. GLC: Charlie changed my mind on IHN with the last post.

What I read was there are 3 strains of IHN. Getting the wrong strain in the wrong species or stocks would be equivalent to an introduction of a exotic disease into a population of naive hosts. That's where you normally get high mortalities and morbidity.

Another factor to consider is the "virulence" - or the "agressiveness" combined with the "success" of the disease-causing propagules.

Exotic diseases are typically more virulent when exposed to "naive" or "unexposed" host populations.

The cincher for me wrt IHN was the statement from Charlie's posting that: "Extended exposure at high virus concentrations (>104 pfu mL-1) and high densities of hosts may be required for disease amplification" - meaning fish farms could be at high risk of transmitting enough viral loads in high enough densities due to stocking densities of infected, cultured fish in order to infect adjacent wild stocks where the wild stocks might not get normally infected due to lower densities.

At spawning time - that could be a different situation for wild stocks - but then you would normally be dealing with fish that would have already built-up resistance to that virus as the normal strain of IHN would be found within that population, and only a short time for that virus to incubate in any infected fish as Pacific salmon die soon after spawning.

What happens when farm fish get a particular strain of IHN, amplify the viral load enough to make it infective, pass it off to naive populations of returning adults, outmigrating smolts and adjacent forage fish; particularly those who are naive wrt a new strain of IHN? What happens when these farms are placed on major migratory routes?

There is a time lag of response time here of days to weeks to even months where the disease ramps up, the provincial fish vet is called and makes a visit, the samples are collected and sent off for "confirmation", and finally the farm site is quarantined and eventually emptied.

On the East Coast the CFIA let ISA infected fish remain at the farm site for 6 months - all the time the wild stocks were swimming-by. This was also a new, unreported strain of ISA. CFIA regional officer Patricia Oulette , said: “We’ve shifted gears to preventing the spread of the disease "[by leaving the fish in the water??] "and no longer consider eradication as an option.”

Undoubtably some wild fish would get infected and die - and nobody would ever notice - except there would be much less to return some time later but only if DFO actually had the funds to go and look - rather than using their scarce $$ to promote the industry.

CK could then claim nobody personally brought him data that showed any "measurable" impact and get on here and post about how well the fish farmers had been doing over the past 30 years with their "adequate" fish health measures.

 

[cuttlefish]

"We were bad but we're better now" yet again.
http://www.thefishsite.com/fishnews/20095/kelly-cove-salmon-fined-for-illegal-pesticide-use

Kelly Cove Salmon Fined for Illegal Pesticide Use
29 April 2013
CANADA - Kelly Cove Salmon has been fined C$500,000 for violations of the Fisheries Act. The violations related to the illegal use of a pesticide resulting in lobster kills in the nearby waters of southwestern New Brunswick.
St. Stephen Provincial Court ordered Kelly Cove Salmon, a subsidiary of Cooke Aquaculture, to pay a total of C$500,000 one of the largest and most significant penalties ever levied in Canada under the Fisheries Act. C50,000 of the penalty will be directed to the Environmental Damages Fund, another C$250,000 will be directed towards scholarships, another C$100,000 will be directed in support of environmental studies and research projects, and the remaining C$100,000 is the court fine.
Kelly Cove Salmon pleaded guilty to releasing cypermethrin into fish-bearing waters in southwestern New Brunswick. Cypermethrin is an agricultural pesticide that is not permitted for use in marine environments because of its proven toxicity to crustaceans, including lobsters and shrimp.
Cooke Aquaculture used the pesticide to address a major sea lice infestation in their open pen salmon farm, knowing that it was illegal to do so.
On November 19, 2009, Environment Canada was informed that lobster fishers in southwestern New Brunswick were finding dead and dying lobsters in their traps. Environmental Enforcement officers subsequently collected samples of the affected lobsters from Grand Manan and Deer Island, as well as fish, mussels and kelp in the areas where the lobsters were found. These samples were sent to Environment Canada’s lab in Moncton for forensic analysis. Results proved the dead lobsters collected in Grand Manan and Deer Island were exposed to cypermethrin.
Following the fine, Cooke Aquaculture CEO, Glenn Cooke, released a statement saying: "We made the difficult decision not to fight these charges even though we question the allegations. Our main reason for this decision was to relieve our people, our company and our customers from a lengthy and public court battle. We want to resolve this matter today and move on.
"As CEO I have taken exceptional measures to ensure the health of our fish and the health of the marine environment. This includes significant investment in green sea lice management. We have invested millions of dollars into well boat technology, into the effective use of hydrogen peroxide as a bath treatment, and into lab and field trials on the use of the native cunner as cleaner fish-fish that will eat sea lice from salmon in net pens. We continue to explore the benefits of using lice traps and the possibility of building sea lice resistance into our breeding programme.
"At the same time we have made the very difficult decision to limit stocking of those New Brunswick farms that experienced warmer water temperatures and higher sea lice levels in 2009-2010. We cannot stock these farms until the industry has access to a full suite of pest treatment and management tools. Unfortunately, this will have negative consequences for jobs and for the local economy.
"We will continue to review and improve internal protocols and auditing procedures to the highest standards. My family, my management team and Iremain committed to science and research as
fundamental to our business. Our scientists and veterinarians have participated in international sea lice conferences and have sought the best advice and expertise worldwide. We collaborate with our industry colleagues and scientists to collect and monitor fish health data so that we can make the best management decisions.
"Fish health is at the core of our business as farmers - as is the sustainability and health of our farms and the marine environment on which we depend. I will continue to strive with the other members of the working waterfront, government and the science community to sustain a strong and responsible aquaculture and fishery industry in Atlantic Canada. And finally, I remain committed to maintaining the trust that we have developed with our valued customers, neighbours and colleagues," he concluded.

TheFishSite News Desk

 

[Charlie]

Charlie: thanks so much for your last post. GLC: Charlie changed my mind on IHN with the last post.

What I read was there are 3 strains of IHN. Getting the wrong strain in the wrong species or stocks would be equivalent to an introduction of a exotic disease into a population of naive hosts. That's where you normally get high mortalities and morbidity.

Another factor to consider is the "virulence" - or the "agressiveness" combined with the "success" of the disease-causing propagules.

Exotic diseases are typically more virulent when exposed to "naive" or "unexposed" host populations.

The cincher for me wrt IHN was the statement from Charlie's posting that: "Extended exposure at high virus concentrations (>104 pfu mL-1) and high densities of hosts may be required for disease amplification" - meaning fish farms could be at high risk of transmitting enough viral loads in high enough densities due to stocking densities of infected, cultured fish in order to infect adjacent wild stocks where the wild stocks might not get normally infected due to lower densities.

At spawning time - that could be a different situation for wild stocks - but then you would normally be dealing with fish that would have already built-up resistance to that virus as the normal strain of IHN would be found within that population, and only a short time for that virus to incubate in any infected fish as Pacific salmon die soon after spawning.

What happens when farm fish get a particular strain of IHN, amplify the viral load enough to make it infective, pass it off to naive populations of returning adults, outmigrating smolts and adjacent forage fish; particularly those who are naive wrt a new strain of IHN? What happens when these farms are placed on major migratory routes?

There is a time lag of response time here of days to weeks to even months where the disease ramps up, the provincial fish vet is called and makes a visit, the samples are collected and sent off for "confirmation", and finally the farm site is quarantined and eventually emptied.

On the East Coast the CFIA let ISA infected fish remain at the farm site for 6 months - all the time the wild stocks were swimming-by. This was also a new, unreported strain of ISA. CFIA regional officer Patricia Oulette , said: “We’ve shifted gears to preventing the spread of the disease "[by leaving the fish in the water??] "and no longer consider eradication as an option.”

Undoubtably some wild fish would get infected and die - and nobody would ever notice - except there would be much less to return some time later but only if DFO actually had the funds to go and look - rather than using their scarce $$ to promote the industry.

CK could then claim nobody personally brought him data that showed any "measurable" impact and get on here and post about how well the fish farmers had been doing over the past 30 years with their "adequate" fish health measures.

Tis the reason I keep asking "what strain of IHNv" do those feedlots have and probably also the reason "they" don't answer that question.

Not saying this was the case or cause; however, it sure is a reason NOT to be giving disease records to "independent scientists". Our salmon have built up resistance to the U clade strain of IHNv. In the wild they never have a high density exposure to the L clade. IF, a California salmon happens to swim by those feedlots and infect them with that L clade. And, the feedlot un-naturally multiplies that strain and there is a high density exposure to our "adult" mature migrating sockeye (who have not built any resistance to that strain) that very much has the potential of high mortalities and morbidity to their offspring going unnoticed on their out migration. Next thing you know the entire run could very well "go missing" for unknown reasons. e.g. 2009 Fraser River Sockeye? Again, it sure is a reason NOT to be giving disease records to any "independent scientists" and would love to see how the industry and DFO would defend something like that.

 

[Swingin Dick]

How the NDP sold out on the salmon issue!
The NDP's Salmon Sell Out - Money Talks, Adrian Dix Doesn't!

http://donstaniford.typepad.com/my-...n-sell-out-money-talks-adrian-dix-doesnt.html

 

[Swingin Dick]

Got this off Jane Sterks facebook page

 

[Swingin Dick]

If you fish, you must take an hour and a half of your time and watch this entire movie. The movie speaks for itself. Just watch the movie. If you turn it off because you don't want to hear the facts, thats your choice. But you owe it to yourself to watch. Just another reason to vote Green!

http://vimeo.com/61301410

 

[agentaqua]

Tis the reason I keep asking "what strain of IHNv" do those feedlots have and probably also the reason "they" don't answer that question.

Not saying this was the case or cause; however, it sure is a reason NOT to be giving disease records to "independent scientists". Our salmon have built up resistance to the U clade strain of IHNv. In the wild they never have a high density exposure to the L clade. IF, a California salmon happens to swim by those feedlots and infect them with that L clade. And, the feedlot un-naturally multiplies that strain and there is a high density exposure to our "adult" mature migrating sockeye (who have not built any resistance to that strain) that very much has the potential of high mortalities and morbidity to their offspring going unnoticed on their out migration. Next thing you know the entire run could very well "go missing" for unknown reasons. e.g. 2009 Fraser River Sockeye? Again, it sure is a reason NOT to be giving disease records to any "independent scientists" and would love to see how the industry and DFO would defend something like that.

think we have already seen the answer to that question: reference CK's last few posts as he cuts and pastes the BCSFA expected deflection responses.

 

[agentaqua]

Does anybody else feel like we are living in a real-life bad George Orwell novel where "sustainability officers" spew lies, deflection and propaganda in order to convince the population "there's nothing to see here - move along"; and the government makes open net-cage aquaculture "sustainable" meerly by calling it so - meanwhile - demeaning, silencing and intimidating independent researchers?

How did we fall so far from the ideals of democracy and good governance?

Where are we headed as a society?

 

[agentaqua]

How the NDP sold out on the salmon issue!
The NDP's Salmon Sell Out - Money Talks, Adrian Dix Doesn't!

http://donstaniford.typepad.com/my-...n-sell-out-money-talks-adrian-dix-doesnt.html

That's Alex's take on it. Can't say I always agree with everything she says, as she lives in a very black'n' white world. I respect her comittment to wild salmon, but it is anti-productive to attack one's allies all the time.

The Green's can dream-up any platform they like, and appease any demographic they want, as they really have no realistic goal of forming government and then having to work within the grey areas.

 

[Swingin Dick]

That's Alex's take on it. Can't say I always agree with everything she says, as she lives in a very black'n' white world. I respect her comittment to wild salmon, but it is anti-productive to attack one's allies all the time.

The Green's can dream-up any platform they like, and appease any demographic they want, as they really have no realistic goal of forming government and then having to work within the grey areas.

The Greens didn't dream up a platform. They are filling the gap that exists in all Canadian government. And it is far more then Salmon issues and even environmental ones. Read the green book http://www.greenparty.bc.ca/greenbook They take a stance on what they feel is important for BC, Canada and the world. For now and the future. They are the voice of people who can't get the ear of a blind status quo government that focusses on numbers and growth. They have the most realistic plan for forming government. Rome wasn't built in a day. They directed their resources towards the few ridings they have a chance of winning. Just to get some bodies in there and make some noise. My candidate Carlos Serra's budget was $500. The sign in my yard is small and it was hand painted by him and his wife. Its fair to say he will not be winning. But I support him and his party. He has a heart of gold and is in politics for all the right reasons. There always 4 years from now. I refuse to cast my vote for the lesser evil. I am voting for somebody who represents me.

 

[agentaqua]

I respect the Green's committment to the environment, and I respect all parties committment to the democratic process where party politics does not supercede any elected representatives responsibility to represent ones constituents - rather than towing the party line.

I have no idea why we are apparently saddled with how any party's "leaders" intimidates and silences dissenters while "appointing" those buddies who have supported the premier or the prime minister.

I like how they do it in Nunavut - where ALL members vote on who will be the new cabinet minister, and then they vote on who will be premier. That's a British Parlimentary system also.

http://www.assembly.nu.ca/sites/default/files/Consensus Government in Nunavut - English.pdf

as far as the green's platform goes - I have to strongly disagree with you. The platform IS unrealistic, and even unconstitutional - and someone in the Greens should have had the experience to catch it.

Like their "negotiate w the feds to get the fishery management back to BC" BUT:

1/ You have to have something to negotiate with,
2/ There has to be a consensus to negotiate, and the feds have to want to, and they don't, and shouldn't since the ruling in Alex's court case was that the province has no jurisdiction over "fishery" (i.e. aquaculture) matters, and

IN ADDITION to this

3/ the province of BC (under the Liberals) mismanaged the aquaculture 'fishery" for years.

Remember Van Dongen. I do. I don't wish to return there thanks. As bad as DFO/CFIA are - having things in the province's hands was no better.

YET - horray for the Greens and their platform while the NDP is blasted in all of Don Staniford's postings and other radical SAS members.

Most of the NDP supporters and candidates have more in common with Greens and Green supporters - than with other parties. The NDP are sticking to recommendations from the Cohen Comission, but that's not enough for Morton/Staniford.

AT SOME POINT - one has to work with others. That means that you get a portion of what you want, and so does others in your process.

In the case of fish farm reform - getting open net-cages off migratory routes and off of critical marine rearing habitat through scienifically defensible siting criteria is the first and most important step.

 

[Swingin Dick]

Right now our tax dollars are being wasted on studies and initiatives that are working against the people that pay those taxes. So in effect we are paying our elected representatives amazing salaries, benefits and pensions (not to mention kickbacks) to suppress facts and cover up findings by experts who actually know something about an issue. One minister gives the order and its shutup or lose your job. People shut up. In the case of the sportfishing bc forum, Watch the movie I posted earlier. And take from it what you want. Why is it so wrong to ask questions about things?

http://vimeo.com/61301410

 

[ClayoquotKid]

Right now our tax dollars are being wasted on studies and initiatives that are working against the people that pay those taxes. So in effect we are paying our elected representatives amazing salaries, benefits and pensions (not to mention kickbacks) to suppress facts and cover up findings by experts who actually know something about an issue. One minister gives the order and its shutup or lose your job. People shut up. In the case of the sportfishing bc forum, Watch the movie I posted earlier. And take from it what you want. Why is it so wrong to ask questions about things?

http://vimeo.com/61301410

Speaking of asking questions about things - maybe it would be good to ask a few questions about the movie you posted?
http://salmonconfidential.com/busting-the-myths/

 

[Swingin Dick]

Agentaqua, I do respect your opinion, though I don't agree with it right now. Its election time and the most important thing is that you exercise your right to vote for whatever party or candidate you support.
Its the same old story every debate I hear and every piece of news I see. NDP candidates and supporters call foul on the Liberals and vice versa. I agree with both sides when they are ripping each other. Cause their both bang on. And the greens are no threat so we will leave them out of it. What I have seen in the debates ( I actually watch them, not the half butt news coverage) is the NDP and liberals agreeing with most everything the green candidate says and stealing words from the green platform. You will see more and more of that as the greens pick up support. I say words, because thats all you get from them is words without substance. Go ask Jane Sterk or Elizabeth May if they are perfect. Hell no. Even I disagree with many parts of the green platform. I wish people would stop looking at politics as a tactical game, and vote for the candidate they would prefer to represent them in Victoria or Ottawa.

I challenge all SFBC members to make the time to hear the leaders debate tonight at 6 on all news channels.

 

[Swingin Dick]

Speaking of asking questions about things - maybe it would be good to ask a few questions about the movie you posted?
http://salmonconfidential.com/busting-the-myths/

Fair enough. There are 2 sides to every story. I am not a scientist and can not refute the claims made in that article. Im curious who wrote that piece and where did they get their facts. Cause they didn't identify themselves. There is nobody accountable to answer for its claims. DO YOU THINK THAT MY TAX DOLLARS ARE BEHIND IT. So thanks Clayoquot Kid for making my point. This article really has legs. 14 facebook shares and 1 like. A total flop. Sounds like an initiative by the Canadian government.

 

[agentaqua]

couldn't agree more with your last posts SD..