Fish farming in Alaska video

[sockeyefry]

Gimp,

The culture of atlantics makes more sense than the culture of Pacifics, because there is absolutely no possibility of genetic pollution, as they do not interbreed. Colonisation is a red herring which has been proven false over and over. Yes fish do escape. NO farmers do not want them to escape and take precautions to prevent it. When they do escape, they do not colonise. Even the precursor to DFO could not get Atlantic salmon to colonize when they tried to by releasing millions in the early 20th century. Atlantics also do not have a very good track record in their home ranges, and when Atlantics, Coho, Chinook and Steelhead were introduced into the Great Lakes, guess which one did not colonise? Yep the Atlantic, and the St Lawrence once was home to the Atlantic. From a farming standpoint the Atlantic is a better fish to farm, maybe because it is more docile, which also makes it get out competed by the Pacifics.

BTW Handee, you'll find they like to hop around in their topics.

 

[agentaqua]

quote:The culture of atlantics makes more sense than the culture of Pacifics, because there is absolutely no possibility of genetic pollution, as they do not interbreed.

It may sound odd coming from me - but I agree with sockeyefry on this one. At least you can recognize an escaped Atlantic as such, and yes - it should not interbreed with Pacific salmon (this does not mean it will not interact with or impact native species, however).

The reason why Atlantics are used in fish farms is because fish farmers have had a long experience in understanding the husbandry of the species, and it can take high stocking densities.

While I am on the topic of mutual agreements with sockeyefry, I also agree with his statement: "Billions of smolt released by Alaska are in direct competition with BC and US wild salmon stocks".

As large as the ocean is - there is only so much production available, and we are probably maxed-out with respect to feed for the BILLIONs of wild and hatchery salmon from the West Coast of North America.

So, if you gain in some areas (i.e. Alaska hatchery output), something else has to give. That commonly is growth rates and subsequent sizes for all wild salmon. We really need to understand the capacity of the ocean, and better plan and co-ordinate our hatchery output and catch allocation as a West Coast community as a whole.

Global warming is expected to exasperate the situation, as the productive growing areas shrink and shift to the North.

quote:Colonisation is a red herring which has been proven false over and over...When they do escape, they do not colonise.

Yes there is a history of failed attempts. However, there are data (i.e. 2yo Atlantic smolts in some West Coast rivers) that suggests that Atlantics have already colonized some rivers on the Northeast end of Vancouver Island, and along the Sunshine Coast Rivers in BC. See Volpe's work on this.

 

[handee]

quote:Originally posted by agentaqua

quote:The culture of atlantics makes more sense than the culture of Pacifics, because there is absolutely no possibility of genetic pollution, as they do not interbreed.

It may sound odd coming from me - but I agree with sockeyefry on this one. At least you can recognize an escaped Atlantic as such, and yes - it should not interbreed with Pacific salmon (this does not mean it will not interact with or impact native species, however).

The reason why Atlantics are used in fish farms is because fish farmers have had a long experience in understanding the husbandry of the species, and it can take high stocking densities.

While I am on the topic of mutual agreements with sockeyefry, I also agree with his statement: "Billions of smolt released by Alaska are in direct competition with BC and US wild salmon stocks".

As large as the ocean is - there is only so much production available, and we are probably maxed-out with respect to feed for the BILLIONs of wild and hatchery salmon from the West Coast of North America.

So, if you gain in some areas (i.e. Alaska hatchery output), something else has to give. That commonly is growth rates and subsequent sizes for all wild salmon. We really need to understand the capacity of the ocean, and better plan and co-ordinate our hatchery output and catch allocation as a West Coast community as a whole.

Global warming is expected to exasperate the situation, as the productive growing areas shrink and shift to the North.

quote:Colonisation is a red herring which has been proven false over and over...When they do escape, they do not colonise.

Yes there is a history of failed attempts. However, there are data (i.e. 2yo Atlantic smolts in some West Coast rivers) that suggests that Atlantics have already colonized some rivers on the Northeast end of Vancouver Island, and along the Sunshine Coast Rivers in BC. See Volpe's work on this.

I have seen Volpes work on this. He says he found Atlantics in 1996 at the only section of the river accessible by truck- lucky him. Natives combing the same stretch of river,and more, for years to come have failed to find any more Atlantics. Only Volpe could do it. Once.

Like Morton, whose cries of extinction any year now are confounded by normal pink salmon returns, Volpe and all the others looking for colonies of escaped Atlantics have come up empty.

Believe me, if he found even one we'd have a peer revierwed published paper with headlines screaming "extinction" in a heartbeat.

If he did find another cluster of Atlantics in a river somewhere the next question woudl be so what? They have no history of being able to outcompete any other type of salmon even if you could get a significant number of them into a single location. And if you did find a bunch of them somewhere after 30 years of farming then you kill them and wait another 30 years for the next batch to get a toe hold.

 

[handee]

OK, Concerned Angler Iam a a joke and a liar. Got it.

 

[agentaqua]

quote:I have seen Volpes work on this. He says he found Atlantics in 1996 at the only section of the river accessible by truck- lucky him. Natives combing the same stretch of river,and more, for years to come have failed to find any more Atlantics. Only Volpe could do it. Once.

Like Morton, whose cries of extinction any year now are confounded by normal pink salmon returns, Volpe and all the others looking for colonies of escaped Atlantics have come up empty.

Believe me, if he found even one we'd have a peer reviewed published paper with headlines screaming "extinction" in a heartbeat.

If he did find another cluster of Atlantics in a river somewhere the next question woudl be so what? They have no history of being able to outcompete any other type of salmon even if you could get a significant number of them into a single location. And if you did find a bunch of them somewhere after 30 years of farming then you kill them and wait another 30 years for the next batch to get a toe hold.

If you have, in fact "seen" Volpe's work - apparently you forgot how to read. One of the peer-reviewed articles is called "Evidence of Natural Reproduction of Aquaculture-Escaped Atlantic Salmon in a Coastal British Columbia River" by the authors John P. Volpe, Eric B. Taylor, David W. Rimmer and Barry W. Glickman at:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2641448

The abstract states: "We present evidence of the first successful natural spawning of Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar) documented on the Pacific coast of North America. Twelve juvenile Atlantic salmon composed of two year classes were captured in the Tsitika River, British Columbia. We analyzed restriction-length polymorphisms of PCR-amplified 5S rDNA and mtDNA to confirm that these individuals were Atlantic salmon. Scale analysis strongly suggested they were the products of natural spawning by feral adults. The gut contents, size, and condition of these individuals suggest that Atlantic salmon are successfully maturing in the Tsitika River, British Columbia. This event has raised concerns that the presence and possible establishment of feral Atlantic salmon may further jeopardize the continued persistence of already fragile native Pacific salmonids through competition for resources and occupation of niches that are currently underutilized."

In this study, they captured 8 juvenile Atlantic salmon from this one river (Tsitika) alone - 3 first year olds, and 5 two year olds in 1998.

In 1999, Volpe did a follow-up study and looked at 22 rivers on Vancouver Island and the Sunshine Coast. 213 adults and 176 juvenile salmon were observed in the 90km of rivers surveyed. That's a f*ing longs ways from "doing it once" and "coming-up empty", Handee. Maybe you should first educate yourself with all the science available before you start beaking-off about a topic you obviously know little about.

So what are some of the most probable consequences that we can foresee about this invasion of Pacific freshwater streams by domesticated, farmed Atlantic salmon?

It is expected that Atlantic salmon escapees in Pacific Rivers will impact steelhead stocks the most. One of the biggest problems is that Atlantic salmon, which hatch earlier than steelhead, may be expected to then dominate steelhead. This is because of the gains fish get by being residents before new recruits hatch. Volpe has done peer-reviewed research on this.

This prior residency effect by juvenile Atlantic salmon will be most likely and pronounced in streams with decreases in historical steelhead numbers, like streams along Northeastern Vancouver Island.

Another author; Mart R. Gross - figures the reasons the Atlantic salmon are successfully invading Pacific drainages now is because:

"(1) Atlantic salmon have an ability to survive in the wild; escaped Atlantic salmon are capable of feeding and migrating thousands of kilometres in the Pacific ocean and are able to grow and survive in coastal rivers and lakes (e.g., Lough et al. 1997);
(2) reproductive capacity in the wild; at least some escaped Atlantic salmon become reproductively mature and enter freshwater rivers. For example, of 20 adult Atlantic salmon that were sampled in British Columbia rivers between 1991 and 1995, 17 (85%) had mature or maturing gonads (McKinnell et al. 1997). Unlike historic attempts at introductions, where human breeders chose the places and times to release embryos or fry, today’s Atlantic salmon are free to choose their own habitat and spawning times and make breeding decisions that maximize reproductive success. Since female Atlantic salmon produce several thousands of eggs, it is possible for a single female to initiate a population (although inbreeding may reduce fitness). An anadromous female may find a mate since mature male parr are resident in at least some coastal rivers;
(3) magnitude, frequency, and geographic extent of seeding — thousands of Atlantic salmon, young and old (fry with yolk sacs to almost mature fish), are escaping annually and throughout the year into both marine and freshwater habitats, in repeated episodes, and over a large geographic range. This means that all combinations of life history stage, seasonal timing, genetic constitution, and environmental conditions are being experienced by escaped Atlantic salmon, increasing the likelihood of a successful fit;
(4) open niches — many open niches now exist for Atlantic salmon because native salmonids, especially chinook, coho, steelhead, and cutthroat, the species that seem most similar to the Atlantic salmon, have been dramatically reduced in number and in many cases are locally extirpated (Walters 1995; Slaney et al. 1996). Thus, historically productive salmon streams are unoccupied and large amounts of food and space for rearing and habitat for spawning, exist without competitors; and
(5) new niches — the extensive changes brought by humans to the structure of Pacific river systems may result in Pacific salmonids being less competitive and Atlantic salmon better adapted to the new wild niches. Atlantic salmon have a much longer evolutionary history of coexistence with humans and human technology-influenced habitats and therefore may be preadapted to colonize the perturbed niches for which Pacific salmonids are maladapted".

If you want to join the adult conversation Handee - where we debate the science, then by all means - please do. If you have well-researched and thought-out points, then I would like to hear them.

So far, your childish personal attacks w/o any supporting information is tiring for most of us here on this forum. Spend some time first getting educated and then come-back for a good ol' debate.

 

[sockeyefry]

Agent,

I don't think that you can call a few hundred juveniles in 90kms of stream an "invasion" If we were talkling about pacifics of this abundance you would be talking extinction, not invasion.

Stop making something out of nothing.

 

[agentaqua]

quote:Originally posted by sockeyefry

Agent,
Stop making something out of nothing.

Yikes! I almost don't believe you said this.

I don't know if anyone else here thinks that introducing another competitor for natal steelhead is an okay thing - given how bad some of those stocks are in along Vancouver Island. We also don't know anything about disease and parasite transfer by aquacultures salmon to wild salmon, either.

All successful invasions (e.g. cane toads, and rabbits in Australia; rats and goats on many islands; etc.) have started with only a few animals - and ended-up with unintended, severe and long lasting effects.

It is most definitely NOT "making something out of nothing".

 

[sockeyefry]

Agent,

Yes it is. The phrase mountains out of molehills comes to mind.

The introduction and establishment of Atlantics have been attempted several times on VI without success. This was dedicated stocking programs in several watersheds up and down the Island. Keep in mind that they were releasing millions with the direct aim of starting self replicating populations, and were unsuccessful.

Escapes from aquaculture sites are:
1) Not in the millions
2) Not on purpose
3) Not desired by the farmers who act to prevent them

With the exception of the fish that Volpe "found", noone else has been able to duplicate his "findings" and locate juveniles in rivers. Because noone has been able to repeat his experiment, Volpe's "results" are in question.

History also places doubt on Volpe's dire predictions of colonisation. After the attempted colonisations in the early 1900's, and after 40 years of salmon aquaculture, there does not exist a self replicating population of Atlantic salmon anywhere in BC.

 

[agentaqua]

quote:The introduction and establishment of Atlantics have been attempted several times on VI without success. This was dedicated stocking programs in several watersheds up and down the Island. Keep in mind that they were releasing millions with the direct aim of starting self replicating populations, and were unsuccessful.

AND

quote:History also places doubt on Volpe's dire predictions of colonisation. After the attempted colonisations in the early 1900's, and after 40 years of salmon aquaculture, there does not exist a self replicating population of Atlantic salmon anywhere in BC.

Times and conditions have changed since they tried that introduction. Did you not read my posting above where I quoted from Mart R. Gross's peer-reviewed work - where he lists the potential changes since this introduction was tried?

Just because someone tried something once - and it didn't take - does not mean that that it won't in the future, or hasn't already. That's because conditions rarely stay the same.

I find that "nothing can go wrong" refrain from pro-industry supporters both tiring and arrogant. They said that the Titanic wouldn't sink. They forgot to add "Oops".

The thing that the pro-industry types don't get is that it is not their decision to make as to what risks they wish to subject the public's resources to. That's the public's decision. Industry needs to be told what risks we are willing to accept - and then they need to comply.

quote:Escapes from aquaculture sites are:
1) Not in the millions
2) Not on purpose
3) Not desired by the farmers who act to prevent them

You are making many assumptions here, sockeyefry.

First - we have absolutely NO IDEA how many escapees are actually out there. Reporting is "voluntary". We covered this topic already at:
http://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8847&whichpage=5
where I responded to Sven by stating:

"Ever wonder why BC is reporting the lowest escapee rate in the world? Better-than-average fish husbandry you counter?

Well reporting escapees is voluntary, and exceeding these "guidelines" can mean fines for that net-cage operation, but there is no third-party on-site monitoring and enforcement.

Let me ask you this question: Did you ever speed in your life? Were you ever late for a meeting, and go a few miles over the speed limit, especially when you were in the middle of nowheres without any cops in sight? I think most of us all have.

Now - show of hands everyone - who has then voluntarily checked themselves in at the local cop shop to get a $180 fine for speeding. Thought so. Point made.

Another issue - even if an industry is caught ignoring guidelines, and is also then convicted and fined - are fines alone an effective deterrent - especially when the province often gives those fines straight back to the fish farming industry? See:
http://www.georgiastrait.org/?q=node/261
http://www.georgiastrait.org/?q=node/263
page 6 at http://www.focs.ca/news/summer2004.pdf

Even if the fines are not given back -are the fines costly enough for an industry to force them to change their practices? What if "doing it right" costs the industry more than the fines? Then the fines just become an operating expense.

As far as the speeding analogy goes - I was still responsible for my actions, but it could be argued that I acted irresponsibly - because there was inadequate monitoring and enforcement. But nobody saw it, knew about, or were able to do anything about it. See the difference. here?

So, adequate enforcement and monitoring along with suitable consequences - is key to making the claim for acting responsibly.

Much of the commercial fishing industry has been forced to have on-board observers (at a cost of >$500/day), even on small owner-operator boats.

Others have the observers as cameras that the footage is secured and played-back by third-party monitoring. All in the name of conservation and fisheries management.

Yet, your industry does not have 3rd party on-site monitoring, and (it can be argued - and it has, with respect to monitoring, environmental reviews, sea lice levels - and other factors) very ineffective legislation and enforcement. All we have is your word.

Believing somebody's word depends upon their credibility. Credibility depends upon past track records for telling the truth - which we all now know is terrible. So why should we believe you?

DFO apparently does not think that believing a commercial fishermen's word is enough, either. So they legislate on-site observers.

But still, you have no observers on your facilities - why not?"

You are using faith verses science in your assessment here.

Another issue - you state that for fish farmers, escapees are not desired nor released on purpose.

That may or may not be true; or may be true only under some circumstances.

Let me ask you these questions:
1/ If your fish escape (like from a hole in the net caused by seals or weather)- does your insurance cover your loss? If so, is it at market values?
2/ if your fish get diseased - do you get full market value for them? Can you even process them? Isn't it a cost to dispose of them?
3/ When margins are tight - is it more cost-effective to aloow your diseased fish to escape or to take them to market? How do we know this doesn't happen - is there 3rd party monitoring?

quote:With the exception of the fish that Volpe "found", noone else has been able to duplicate his "findings" and locate juveniles in rivers. Because noone has been able to repeat his experiment, Volpe's "results" are in question..

If what you say is true - then I guess that question is something we should all ask Andy Thomson, the head of the Atlantic Salmon Watch for years. Makes me wonder how hard DFO is looking - and how it is that the BC Ministry of Agriculture and Lands funds the Atlantic Salmon Watch Program.

I'm not sure, however, how truthful you are being when you state: "noone else has been able to duplicate his "findings" and locate juveniles in rivers". Check-out the news story at:
http://www.canada.com/victoriatimes...=184c651d-46d6-4c6e-ba8c-4eb2c104fe66&k=69921