Haida Gwaii IS Getting Hammered

[wildmanyeah]

Thanks for the reminder on why I dont interact on this site anymore. So many awful and selfish opinions, from people who only care about their piece of the pie.

Nobody ever talks about whats best for the fish in these "discussions".

your sidney fishing reports were the best!

 

[searun]

Maybe rather than fight between the sectors, we would be far better off if each sector started looking at how to find ways to optimize what we already have and be thankful for that?

I can't and won't speak for the commercial salmon fishery, but I will stand up for the social and economic value proposition the recreational fishery brings to Canada. There is a stark difference, and IMO the recreational fishery delivers 22.9 time more economic benefit (based on GDP contributions) to Canada than the commercial salmon fisheries in total.

So, I agree with Nog, the recreational community should be very thankful for what we have now IMO, as should Canada. I'm also watching and sympathetic to the dramatic decline in the economic viability of commercial salmon fisheries...and impacts to people and communities that relied heavily upon it. Given the economic data it seems there might be a few ways to adapt to a bad situation for the recreational and commercial fisheries.

Economic and Fishery Perspectives - data taken from Province of BC 2022 Fisheries and Economic Sector Report

Declining Biomass and Opportunity:

• Both fisheries have been forced to adjust to managing around stocks of concern.
• Without significant re-focus on developing best practices that optimize either avoiding stocks of concern, or significantly reducing the impact of post-release incidental mortality - each fishery will face the death of a thousand cuts
• Better research and adoption of best practices aimed at reducing Fishery Related Incidental Morality (FRIM) is necessary to help shape improved fishery sustainability - no one is immune to poor fishery practices
• Each fishery needs to refocus on how it delivers comparative economic and social benefits to Canada - we are utilizing a limited and highly valuable resource and must demonstrate the wisest use for the benefit of Canada. If we can't pass that test, it brings into question the future viability of our fisheries IMO.

How Does Each Fishery Stack Up?

Commercial:

• EBITDA = earnings before interest, tax, depreciation, amortization demonstrates most commercial fisheries are currently economically unsustainable. Gillnet = (-$13,900); Seine =(-$25,700); Troll = +$1,200. Note - only the Troll fishery realized a positive EBITDA.
• * DFO Economic Branch Report

• Without significant subsidization or transfer of opportunity (fish) to commercial the existing commercial fishery is economically unsustainable delivering opportunity to 379 total commercial vessels (all types).

Employment

• Recreational = 4,866 combined fresh/salt or 2,587 saltwater only in 2022.
• Commercial = 1,055 – combines all fisheries such as crab, tuna, halibut etc....and salmon
• To provide context, commercial fishing related employment and economic contribution data available within the Province of BC data combines all types of commercial fishing activity, thereby over-representing the actual contributions associated only to the commercial salmon fishery itself.
• The once-dominant salmon fishery was ranked seventh (7.9% GDP contribution) among the fisheries in that year (2022). This compares to its 30.9% share of the capture fishery’s real GDP in 1991.

Distribution of socio-economic benefits

• Recreational license holders engage over 300,000 compared to commercial salmon license holders of 379 vessels
• Net GDP contributions of recreational fishery are greater than commercial (2022 = $343.7 million rec vs $15 million commercial salmon or 22.9 times more GDP contribution by recreational fishery)
• GDP contributions demonstrate clear and broad distribution of benefits beyond simply the number of active participants (license holders)
• Recreational contribution to Canada’s GDP per salmon harvested is highest value-added benefit from each fish harvested (recreational = $180 million or $536.27/fish vs commercial $15 million or $32.6/fish)

Commercial vs Recreational Catch Performance Analysis

• Pacific Salmon Commission data review demonstrates commercial fisheries have 80% of all salmon harvest
• Reduction of other fisheries catch to augment Commercial salmon catch to address economic viability of commercial salmon fishery IMO unfairly damages stability of access and opportunity required for continuation of strong recreational fishery economic and social contributions to Canada. Therefore the best way forward may be to look at fleet rationalization within the commercial sector.

How Can We Help Make Commercial Fishing Economically Viable - partial answer to Nog's concerns noted above

• One possible solution to help ensure economic viability of commercial salmon fishery might be to look at further fleet rationalization programs at fair market compensation to transition some of the fleet out of the fishery, thereby making the remaining fleet more economically viable.
• Possibly look at which commercial fleet is able to fish most selectively to avoid stocks of concern, and reward good performance with more access to fish from commercial fisheries that are less selective?
• IMO the commercial troll fleet based on the economic data is the way forward in many fisheries. There may be other examples where small scale gill net fisheries or seine fisheries could demonstrate economic viability as well as selective fishing....those should be rewarded and celebrated.
• Given strong EBITDA performance, perhaps start by looking at how to make the remaining Troll fleet more viable and develop best practice sustainable methodologies?

 

[IronNoggin]

• One possible solution to help ensure economic viability of commercial salmon fishery might be to look at further fleet rationalization programs at fair market compensation to transition some of the fleet out of the fishery, thereby making the remaining fleet more economically viable.
• Possibly look at which commercial fleet is able to fish most selectively to avoid stocks of concern, and reward good performance with more access to fish from commercial fisheries that are less selective?
• IMO the commercial troll fleet based on the economic data is the way forward in many fisheries. There may be other examples where small scale gill net fisheries or seine fisheries could demonstrate economic viability as well as selective fishing....those should be rewarded and celebrated.
• Given strong EBITDA performance, perhaps start by looking at how to make the remaining Troll fleet more viable and develop best practice sustainable methodologies?

There is a fair bit of sense to what you are saying. No-one is arguing over the cost benefit analysis of recreational catch vs commercial. That has been a known factor for quite some time.

Both Area G & Area H troll have taken massive hits in the past couple of decades, and that has seriously escalated in this last one.
The fleets are mere remnants of what they once were, and active boats number only in the dozens at this point.

"Fleet Rationalization" was not conducted via programs based on fair market compensation. The various buy out programs, including License buy backs, offered much less than current market value (to the point of being rather insulting). Instead, DFO simply decreased their quotas and opening times to the point the fisheries became functionally invalid. They intentionally economically crushed those who attempted to stay in the fishery, and did so in an overt and directed manner. This is not opinion, it is fact.

The troll fleet is the only one that can and does offer effective selective fishing practices. That has been well documented over time. However DFO decided to clobber them, take them off the water, and largely gift their quota to FN organizations (while allowing the FN's to subsequently fish areas and times restricted from the commercial troll fleets under the guise of protecting stocks in danger).

I hate to say it, but commercial trolling is beyond a Sunset Industry at this point. I can think of no amount of actions that might turn that around. Saddening for me, as I already miss that lifestyle immensely.

Given the state and direction of our recreational fisheries of late, methinks some might see the obvious parallels here...

And that's not so damned cheers worthy...

 

[onefish]

"Given the state and direction of our recreational fisheries of late, methinks some might see the obvious parallels here..."

Yup, all us ex trollers who lived through DFO's "death by a thousand cuts", are well aware of the obvious parallells being applied to the sports/recreational fishery now that they have virtually eliminated commercial trolling.

 

[searun]

"Given the state and direction of our recreational fisheries of late, methinks some might see the obvious parallels here..."

Yup, all us ex trollers who lived through DFO's "death by a thousand cuts", are well aware of the obvious parallells being applied to the sports/recreational fishery now that they have virtually eliminated commercial trolling.

Yes, and we are highly aware and sympathetic. I also agree with Nog that fair compensation must be an absolute priority and not just lip service.

 

[Spring Time in Vienna]

Maybe rather than fight between the sectors, we would be far better off if each sector started looking at how to find ways to optimize what we already have and be thankful for that?

I can't and won't speak for the commercial salmon fishery, but I will stand up for the social and economic value proposition the recreational fishery brings to Canada. There is a stark difference, and IMO the recreational fishery delivers 22.9 time more economic benefit (based on GDP contributions) to Canada than the commercial salmon fisheries in total.

So, I agree with Nog, the recreational community should be very thankful for what we have now IMO, as should Canada. I'm also watching and sympathetic to the dramatic decline in the economic viability of commercial salmon fisheries...and impacts to people and communities that relied heavily upon it. Given the economic data it seems there might be a few ways to adapt to a bad situation for the recreational and commercial fisheries.

Economic and Fishery Perspectives - data taken from Province of BC 2022 Fisheries and Economic Sector Report

Declining Biomass and Opportunity:

• Both fisheries have been forced to adjust to managing around stocks of concern.
• Without significant re-focus on developing best practices that optimize either avoiding stocks of concern, or significantly reducing the impact of post-release incidental mortality - each fishery will face the death of a thousand cuts
• Better research and adoption of best practices aimed at reducing Fishery Related Incidental Morality (FRIM) is necessary to help shape improved fishery sustainability - no one is immune to poor fishery practices
• Each fishery needs to refocus on how it delivers comparative economic and social benefits to Canada - we are utilizing a limited and highly valuable resource and must demonstrate the wisest use for the benefit of Canada. If we can't pass that test, it brings into question the future viability of our fisheries IMO.

How Does Each Fishery Stack Up?

Commercial:

• EBITDA = earnings before interest, tax, depreciation, amortization demonstrates most commercial fisheries are currently economically unsustainable. Gillnet = (-$13,900); Seine =(-$25,700); Troll = +$1,200. Note - only the Troll fishery realized a positive EBITDA.
• * DFO Economic Branch Report

• Without significant subsidization or transfer of opportunity (fish) to commercial the existing commercial fishery is economically unsustainable delivering opportunity to 379 total commercial vessels (all types).

Employment

• Recreational = 4,866 combined fresh/salt or 2,587 saltwater only in 2022.
• Commercial = 1,055 – combines all fisheries such as crab, tuna, halibut etc....and salmon
• To provide context, commercial fishing related employment and economic contribution data available within the Province of BC data combines all types of commercial fishing activity, thereby over-representing the actual contributions associated only to the commercial salmon fishery itself.
• The once-dominant salmon fishery was ranked seventh (7.9% GDP contribution) among the fisheries in that year (2022). This compares to its 30.9% share of the capture fishery’s real GDP in 1991.

Distribution of socio-economic benefits

• Recreational license holders engage over 300,000 compared to commercial salmon license holders of 379 vessels
• Net GDP contributions of recreational fishery are greater than commercial (2022 = $343.7 million rec vs $15 million commercial salmon or 22.9 times more GDP contribution by recreational fishery)
• GDP contributions demonstrate clear and broad distribution of benefits beyond simply the number of active participants (license holders)
• Recreational contribution to Canada’s GDP per salmon harvested is highest value-added benefit from each fish harvested (recreational = $180 million or $536.27/fish vs commercial $15 million or $32.6/fish)

Commercial vs Recreational Catch Performance Analysis

• Pacific Salmon Commission data review demonstrates commercial fisheries have 80% of all salmon harvest
• Reduction of other fisheries catch to augment Commercial salmon catch to address economic viability of commercial salmon fishery IMO unfairly damages stability of access and opportunity required for continuation of strong recreational fishery economic and social contributions to Canada. Therefore the best way forward may be to look at fleet rationalization within the commercial sector.

How Can We Help Make Commercial Fishing Economically Viable - partial answer to Nog's concerns noted above

• One possible solution to help ensure economic viability of commercial salmon fishery might be to look at further fleet rationalization programs at fair market compensation to transition some of the fleet out of the fishery, thereby making the remaining fleet more economically viable.
• Possibly look at which commercial fleet is able to fish most selectively to avoid stocks of concern, and reward good performance with more access to fish from commercial fisheries that are less selective?
• IMO the commercial troll fleet based on the economic data is the way forward in many fisheries. There may be other examples where small scale gill net fisheries or seine fisheries could demonstrate economic viability as well as selective fishing....those should be rewarded and celebrated.
• Given strong EBITDA performance, perhaps start by looking at how to make the remaining Troll fleet more viable and develop best practice sustainable methodologies?

I dont care about my piece of the pie, I care about the pie itself. There is a distinct difference. If theres any projection in here its from you two commercial fishery apologists.

Im not wasting any more of my sunday on this.

I think we should all recognize that trollers especially are usually small scale owner/operators and by far the most selective commercial salmon fishery. They have a rich history and are some of my favourite people to end up at barstool next to in Rupert or Hardy. I know several trollers that still make a very good living, but they have expanded their business to a fully vertical program where they market and sell their product to end users. This drastically increases the economic contribution of the fishery as opposed to lining Jimmy P's pockets.

As sports fishers and guides we also have to look in the mirror. I know I had a ton of by catch especially early season back when I was guiding in the Gwaii. Descending devices help but I still see instagram littered with videos of eagles eating mystery fish from guide outfits.

All this to say we all have to adapt. No more slipper skippers leasing out quota, better C&R tactics for sport fishers, the list goes on and on. The ENGO's and government are all too willing to barter away our livelihoods and culture in the name of reconciliation.

 

[Karlo]

I would be interested to know ownership of the vessels......

It was the Pattison group, but I understand it was recently sold,

 

[Karlo]

I guide on the west side of HG all summer. When the commercial troll opening starts u have maybe a day or 2 of good fishing left before everything is thinned out, and most of the fish we catch will be 8-12lbs with half a jaw missing. Leaving the dock in the morning and seeing a wall of trollers to the north, headed down the west side of HG is a pretty ominous feeling. You can literally follow the trail of bocaccios, yelloweyes, and rockfish floating on the surface behind the troller fleet, as the seabirds pick away at their eyes.

The longliners can rid a whole area of its halibut and lingcod in a matter of days.

Of course being a sportfisherman and a sport guide, Im biased. But I feel like its a supreme abuse of our amazing resource. Its also human nature to farm/harvest everything into extinction. Yay humans!

There's no doubt that trollers and longliners can take a heavy toll, but these midwater trawls are totally indiscriminate. There has been a troll and online fishery for many decades, as well as the former fleet of gillnetters and seiners, but they were less totally destructive by far.

 

[Karlo]

They have been mid water and bottom trawling there for years. They used to mid water a lot for pollock up there. Bottom drawing between rose spit and langara is likly for sole. I gave done many trawl trips and have seen very few salmon. The boats also have 100 percent at sea and dock side monitoring. I would not freak out too much; If your interested you could get the by catch numbers from DFO. Last I know the Freeport was bought by a North Coast FN.

They have been mid water and bottom trawling there for years. They used to mid water a lot for pollock up therTe. Bottom drawing between rose spit and langara is likly for sole. I gave done many trawl trips and have seen very few salmon. he boats also have 100 percent at sea and dock side monitoring. I would not freak out too much; If your interested you could get the by catch numbers from DFO. Last I know the Freeport was bought by a North Coast FN.

They've been midwater and bottom trawling Hecate Strait, and offshore in Dixon Entrance. They haven't been coming right up to the beach on Dixon Entrance, and they certainly haven't been scooping Rennell Sound and Skidegate Channel right up to the heads of the Inlets.

And could you explain how a trawler dragging for sole in the richest halibut waters in the province delicately picks out the sole, and leaves the halibut behind? Get real!

As to your false claim that "the boats also have 100 percent at sea and dock side monitoring", the dockside monitoring monitors what they bring in, not what they toss overboard. I see that quote comes directly from the Industry's website. Hmmm. DFO discontinued having at-sea observers on vessels during COVID, and has not reinstated the program preferring electronic monitoring and other industry-supported reporting efforts. I always like to check and see if I'm telling the truth before I post something

This article will tell you what the DFO themselves discovered about the huge salmon by-catch.

Trawler Fleet Faces Backlash as 26,000 Fish Discarded, Endangering Orcas & Chinook Salmon

Over 20,000 Chinook salmon were discarded by BC trawlers, raising concerns about the impact on conservation efforts on orcas and salmon.

www.westcoastnow.ca

 

[Karlo]

What would be best for fish is to be closed to fishing to everyone. What is best for fish from your perspective is closed for everyone except you. Pretty easy to read your agenda.

Let me understand. Are you equating what a sporty might catch in the course of a season with what a factory ship towing a trawl will take? This just in: The choices aren't all or nothing.

 

[Karlo]

Could not have said it better myself.
For years the troll fleet has taken hit after hit after hit.
Quotas slashed (then openly handed to FN's), opening restrictions increasingly narrow and times to miss the largest component of the runs, and more. All of course designed to get them off the water entirely.
To the point most (myself included) simply gave up.
It is no longer viable, yet a few still cling to tradition and struggle on.

For any guide to point a finger at the remaining few as a wave of destruction is beyond self serving IMO.
Kick that horse when it's down.
Wonder who will kicking your horse when it follows the same fate (and under the current trend, that may well not be too far down the road).

Nog

I mostly agree with your points, having seen the old Haida Gwaii B licenses go down, then the ice boats, and finally even most of the freezer-trollers, so there are just a few trollers left in the harbor to fish a very short, quota-driven season. I fish in the same areas as the trollers after their short, late opening, and don't see the wholesale slaughter of bottom fish that's mentioned here.

However, as a sports/food fisherman, I have to dismiss the idea that our catch isn't also heavily curtailed, both in terms of season limit and limits early in the summer. That's what makes seeing this indiscriminate trawler slaughter so galling. Here's an article citing the DFO's own estimate of the trawlers' salmon toll. Note that it's only an estimate, because THEY NO LONGER HAVE ON-BOARD MONITORING!

Trawler Fleet Faces Backlash as 26,000 Fish Discarded, Endangering Orcas & Chinook Salmon

Over 20,000 Chinook salmon were discarded by BC trawlers, raising concerns about the impact on conservation efforts on orcas and salmon.

www.westcoastnow.ca

 

[onefish]

Let me understand. Are you equating what a sporty might catch in the course of a season with what a factory ship towing a trawl will take? This just in: The choices aren't all or nothing.

Not sure if you understand the difference between a trawler and a troller? This particular discussion has been referring to north coast trollers. Massive difference between the two.

 

[Karlo]

2024

For Immediate Release: Haida Nation, B.C. recognize Haida Aboriginal title, a historic first in Canada – Council of the Haida Nation

www.haidanation.ca

2025

For Immediate Release: The Haida Nation and Canada announce a first-of-its-kind agreement recognizing Aboriginal title on Haida Gwaii – Council of the Haida Nation

www.haidanation.ca

Esentually the Haida are becoming their own country and governence, on land. The surrounding waters will change too. It is a ways away but that seems to be the direction. The agreement does not apply to privately owned land prior to the Federal and Haida agreement.

I've lived on HG for 50 years, and the amount of alarmist race-baiting that I've seen around the Haida Sovereignty settlement is truly sad. Private property on the islands remains at a premium, and for a permanent resident like myself, the 7-figure valuation of my property as it's reflected in my taxes isn't a boon.

The Haida Nation has no jurisdiction offshore, except as co-managers of the Gwaii Haanas National Park Reserve. They are currently very alarmed by these factory trawlers hitting their front yards, and are examining means to deal with the problem

I would personally rather have people acting in the interests of their future generations managing the area, rather than a Vancouver-or-elsewhere-based corporation.

 

[Hardy Guy]

I would say the enhanced EM is working if issues have been noted. I just read the IFMP and you are correct it is now EM and the goal is to continue to improve and enhance it. Have you ever been on a trawler or troller and seen the fishing operations ? Decisions need to be based of facts. By catch can be an issue but it also varies greatly by area, time, species targeted etc.

 

[Karlo]

Not sure if you understand the difference between a trawler and a troller? This particular discussion has been referring to north coast trollers. Massive difference between the two.

You're telling me I don't know what this discussion is referring to? I definitely understand the difference between a trawler and a troller, since I've lived on and fished around Haida Gwaii for 50 years, and I've deckhanded on a troller. Unfortunately, "this particular discussion" has been hijacked into a disagreement between defenders of commercial trolling and a guy who claims that trollers, in their short, quota-limited season, do damage remotely comparable to what draggers and midwater trawlers are doing. You have personally been party to that derail of my thread! To the extent that I was involved in the hijacking, it has been to sympathize with the trollers, but even that is apparently beyond your comprehension.

My original purpose in posting was to draw the attention of the BC sportfishing community to a matter of deep concern to Haida Gwaiians, in hopes that respect for our precious salmon might lead people to investigate, become concerned, and take action.

 

[searun]

I agree with Karlo. There is no doubt the mid-water trawl fishery has fairly significant by-catch of Chinook. We started pressing the Department about 5 years back to require all Salmon to be retained on board and landed for dockside inspection. The prior practice was to allow at-sea discarding, so there was no way to determine catch timing, how many, where and no GSI sampling to determine if Chinook stocks of concern were encountered.

All our fisheries (commercial troll, FN and recreational) have been significantly curtailed to avoid almost any incidental catch of these particular stocks. So by requiring all salmon by-catch to be retained and landed so it could be accounted for and DNA samples obtained was critical to understanding timing and locations of mid-water trawl encounters of Chinook....and from there it would become possible to improve fishery planning to avoid these encounters. It took a while for DFO to adapt, but once these changes were implemented it quickly became clear there are indeed significant salmon by-catch encounters. That has led to closing certain by-catch hot spots or adjustments in fishery timing in effort to avoid these salmon. A good start.

I think that approach is a responsible start, but more robust work is still required to improve the fine scale knowledge that helps us shape fisheries to improve recovery of Chinook stocks of concern. We all (I suggest) want sustainable and vibrant fishery opportunities - so IMO getting the mid-water trawl fishery by-catch encounters of Chinook performing way better than it is today would really help everyone get back on the water.

 

[onefish]

You're telling me I don't know what this discussion is referring to? I definitely understand the difference between a trawler and a troller, since I've lived on and fished around Haida Gwaii for 50 years, and I've deckhanded on a troller. Unfortunately, "this particular discussion" has been hijacked into a disagreement between defenders of commercial trolling and a guy who claims that trollers, in their short, quota-limited season, do damage remotely comparable to what draggers and midwater trawlers are doing. You have personally been party to that derail of my thread! To the extent that I was involved in the hijacking, it has been to sympathize with the trollers, but even that is apparently beyond your comprehension.

My original purpose in posting was to draw the attention of the BC sportfishing community to a matter of deep concern to Haida Gwaiians, in hopes that respect for our precious salmon might lead people to investigate, become concerned, and take action.

Your first post was about trawling. Everything after that, including my comments, was about trolling. It sounds like you and I are in 100% agreement regarding trolling and trawling.

 

[advTHXance]

You're telling me I don't know what this discussion is referring to? I definitely understand the difference between a trawler and a troller, since I've lived on and fished around Haida Gwaii for 50 years, and I've deckhanded on a troller. Unfortunately, "this particular discussion" has been hijacked into a disagreement between defenders of commercial trolling and a guy who claims that trollers, in their short, quota-limited season, do damage remotely comparable to what draggers and midwater trawlers are doing. You have personally been party to that derail of my thread! To the extent that I was involved in the hijacking, it has been to sympathize with the trollers, but even that is apparently beyond your comprehension.

My original purpose in posting was to draw the attention of the BC sportfishing community to a matter of deep concern to Haida Gwaiians, in hopes that respect for our precious salmon might lead people to investigate, become concerned, and take action.

My apologies Karlo, I didnt mean to hijack your thread! I also didnt mean to downplay the damage that trawlers do and wasnt trying to compare trawlers to trollers or longliners or any other type of commercial fishing. I was just sharing my firsthand observations of the commercial fleet!