Fish Farm trouble in BC.

[spopadyn]

So near as I can tell it, there is approximately 40000 - 70000 MT (varies year to year) of commercially caught wild salmon. There is approximately 100,000 MT of farmed salmon of which approximately 30% remains in our local market. If we banned all salmon farms, notionally, it would mean that we need to increase the harvest of wild salmon by 50% just to meet our current demand (assuming all the commercially caught wild salmon is kept 100% for Canadian markets). All those who think we can tell the rest of Canadians that this salmon is just for us and they need to eat something else are idiots. Closing the salmon farms will have a huge impact on our wild stocks and I can't see how these numbers don't clearly indicate this.

This is the real paradox. All you eco warriors who are quick to point to one fact, anecdote or study and decide it leads to only one conclusion really miss the target. The studies you sight may even be correct, but the real solution is to address the concern and find a way for aqua culture to survive. Banning the farms will likely result in a collapse of the wild salmon species as the pressure to take more will mount. Oddly enough, I think the salmon farmers and the eco warriors agree on one thing - we need to protect our wild stocks. The solution to doing this is likely found in a balanced approach - fix what is broken, expand what is successful. If we care about our wild salmon, we should want a way for the farms to survive - that may be our last hope for long term sustainability. Now, lets all light our hair on fire again...

BTW, chastising any member for working in the salmon farming industry is BS. If you want to throw rocks at those gents for doing a job, perhaps you can let us know what great and noble career you have chosen so we can all applaud you.

 

[spopadyn]

You forgot to mention a source of election funds for compromised lobbyists and their lackey politicians - like the BC Liberals.

Do you have any proof of this? Are you actually saying you have first hand knowledge or are you just mouthing off?

 

[spopadyn]

What a completely absurd statement.

Well, I guess we should get rid of courts then - if they serve no purpose - that way we couldn't force FF companies & their biased supporters/regulators to be accountable. Wait a minute - are those 2 things related??? hmmmm....

Actually, the judge rules on the "weight of evidence", spopadyn. In this case - the weight of scientific evidence. It's entirely appropriate.

Actually judges rule on the weight of evidence that is presented. In the absence of evidence, they make a judgement (more times then not they are correct). However, silicon breast implants did not cause cancer even though awards for this were given. There are actually countless cases where judgments have been made that later were proved to be scientifically incorrect. Not hard to look this up...

 

[bones]

So near as I can tell it, there is approximately 40000 - 70000 MT (varies year to year) of commercially caught wild salmon. There is approximately 100,000 MT of farmed salmon of which approximately 30% remains in our local market. If we banned all salmon farms, notionally, it would mean that we need to increase the harvest of wild salmon by 50% just to meet our current demand (assuming all the commercially caught wild salmon is kept 100% for Canadian markets). All those who think we can tell the rest of Canadians that this salmon is just for us and they need to eat something else are idiots. Closing the salmon farms will have a huge impact on our wild stocks and I can't see how these numbers don't clearly indicate this.

This is the real paradox. All you eco warriors who are quick to point to one fact, anecdote or study and decide it leads to only one conclusion really miss the target. The studies you sight may even be correct, but the real solution is to address the concern and find a way for aqua culture to survive. Banning the farms will likely result in a collapse of the wild salmon species as the pressure to take more will mount. Oddly enough, I think the salmon farmers and the eco warriors agree on one thing - we need to protect our wild stocks. The solution to doing this is likely found in a balanced approach - fix what is broken, expand what is successful. If we care about our wild salmon, we should want a way for the farms to survive - that may be our last hope for long term sustainability. Now, lets all light our hair on fire again...

BTW, chastising any member for working in the salmon farming industry is BS. If you want to throw rocks at those gents for doing a job, perhaps you can let us know what great and noble career you have chosen so we can all applaud you.

i believe , if you harvest all pacific coast wild salmon you will meet world demand for one day.......so as i said years ago, Fish Farms save wild salmon stocks. because going back to a commercial fishing driven system clearly has not worked.

 

[agentaqua]

Formal comment on: Piscine reovirus: Genomic and molecular phylogenetic analysis from farmed and wild salmonids collected on the Canada/US Pacific Coast

• Molly J. T. Kibenge,
• Yingwei Wang,
• Alexandra Morton,
• Richard Routledge,
• Frederick S. B. Kibenge

• Published: November 30, 2017
• https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0188690

 

[agentaqua]

Actually judges rule on the weight of evidence that is presented. In the absence of evidence, they make a judgement (more times then not they are correct). However, silicon breast implants did not cause cancer even though awards for this were given. There are actually countless cases where judgments have been made that later were proved to be scientifically incorrect. Not hard to look this up...

You are right, spopadyn - corporations have been caught in court hiding scientific evidence and being sued in class-action lawsuits - like the tobacco lobby... they even use the same PR firms to lie - as do the FF industry - like Hill and Knowleton.

 

[agentaqua]

Do you have any proof of this? Are you actually saying you have first hand knowledge or are you just mouthing off?

been covered before on this forum. Google: "Dimitri Pantazopoulos"and "Mark Jiles"

Also:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ben...money-laundering-terrorist-registry-1.4427271
https://dogwoodbc.ca/news/something-fishy/
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...-few-political-donationrules/article34207677/
https://www.desmog.ca/2017/04/04/fo...ing-b-c-liberals-part-alarming-trend-watchdog
https://www.facebook.com/IntegrityBritishColumbia/posts/970245006390239
http://contributions.electionsbc.gov.bc.ca/pcs/SA1ASearchResults.aspx?Contributor=Mark+Jiles&PartySK=0&Party=(ALL)&DateTo=&DateFrom=&DFYear=&DFMonth=&DFDay=&DTYear=&DTMonth=&DTDay=
http://contributions.electionsbc.gov.bc.ca/pcs/SA1SearchResults.aspx?FilerSK=(ALL)&EDSK=0&FilerTypeSK=0&Contributor=Mark+Jiles&PartySK=0&ED=(ALL)&FilerType=(ALL)&Filer=(ALL)&Party=(ALL)&DateTo=&DateFrom=&DFYear=&DFMonth=&DFDay=&DTYear=&DTMonth=&DTDay=
http://contributions.electionsbc.go...Year=&DFMonth=&DFDay=&DTYear=&DTMonth=&DTDay=
http://contributions.electionsbc.go...Year=&DFMonth=&DFDay=&DTYear=&DTMonth=&DTDay=
http://contributions.electionsbc.go...Year=&DFMonth=&DFDay=&DTYear=&DTMonth=&DTDay=

 

[GLG]

So near as I can tell it, there is approximately 40000 - 70000 MT (varies year to year) of commercially caught wild salmon. There is approximately 100,000 MT of farmed salmon of which approximately 30% remains in our local market. If we banned all salmon farms, notionally, it would mean that we need to increase the harvest of wild salmon by 50% just to meet our current demand (assuming all the commercially caught wild salmon is kept 100% for Canadian markets). All those who think we can tell the rest of Canadians that this salmon is just for us and they need to eat something else are idiots. Closing the salmon farms will have a huge impact on our wild stocks and I can't see how these numbers don't clearly indicate this.

This is the real paradox. All you eco warriors who are quick to point to one fact, anecdote or study and decide it leads to only one conclusion really miss the target. The studies you sight may even be correct, but the real solution is to address the concern and find a way for aqua culture to survive. Banning the farms will likely result in a collapse of the wild salmon species as the pressure to take more will mount. Oddly enough, I think the salmon farmers and the eco warriors agree on one thing - we need to protect our wild stocks. The solution to doing this is likely found in a balanced approach - fix what is broken, expand what is successful. If we care about our wild salmon, we should want a way for the farms to survive - that may be our last hope for long term sustainability. Now, lets all light our hair on fire again...

BTW, chastising any member for working in the salmon farming industry is BS. If you want to throw rocks at those gents for doing a job, perhaps you can let us know what great and noble career you have chosen so we can all applaud you.

The rather large flaw in your argument is how you would increase the harvest in wild salmon when you would have to go through these two processes.
http://www.psc.org/
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/peches-fisheries/ifmp-gmp/index-eng.htm

 

[spopadyn]

been covered before on this forum. Google: "Dimitri Pantazopoulos"and "Mark Jiles"

Also:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ben...money-laundering-terrorist-registry-1.4427271
https://dogwoodbc.ca/news/something-fishy/
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...-few-political-donationrules/article34207677/
https://www.desmog.ca/2017/04/04/fo...ing-b-c-liberals-part-alarming-trend-watchdog
https://www.facebook.com/IntegrityBritishColumbia/posts/970245006390239
http://contributions.electionsbc.gov.bc.ca/pcs/SA1ASearchResults.aspx?Contributor=Mark+Jiles&PartySK=0&Party=(ALL)&DateTo=&DateFrom=&DFYear=&DFMonth=&DFDay=&DTYear=&DTMonth=&DTDay=
http://contributions.electionsbc.gov.bc.ca/pcs/SA1SearchResults.aspx?FilerSK=(ALL)&EDSK=0&FilerTypeSK=0&Contributor=Mark+Jiles&PartySK=0&ED=(ALL)&FilerType=(ALL)&Filer=(ALL)&Party=(ALL)&DateTo=&DateFrom=&DFYear=&DFMonth=&DFDay=&DTYear=&DTMonth=&DTDay=
http://contributions.electionsbc.go...Year=&DFMonth=&DFDay=&DTYear=&DTMonth=&DTDay=
http://contributions.electionsbc.go...Year=&DFMonth=&DFDay=&DTYear=&DTMonth=&DTDay=
http://contributions.electionsbc.go...Year=&DFMonth=&DFDay=&DTYear=&DTMonth=&DTDay=

Thanks. Not exactly sure it is proof but alas all politicians are subject to being bought!

 

[spopadyn]

You are right, spopadyn - corporations have been caught in court hiding scientific evidence and being sued in class-action lawsuits - like the tobacco lobby... they even use the same PR firms to lie - as do the FF industry - like Hill and Knowleton.

But there is an equal amount of cases where the lawyers suing the corporations relied upon either faulty science or pseudo science and won. My point is just that a judge making a decision is not proof of scientific certainty. I think you lost that....

 

[spopadyn]

The rather large flaw in your argument is how you would increase the harvest in wild salmon when you would have to go through these two processes.
http://www.psc.org/
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/peches-fisheries/ifmp-gmp/index-eng.htm

I am saying we can't increase the harvest of wild salmon at all. If we rid ourselves of the farms, something else will need to be sacrificed. Do we all agree that if the farms are eliminated, then the salmon quota for commercial fisheries should increase? If you say no, then who should be allowed to consume the publicly owned resource? Sporties? We are also a defined lobby group intent on protecting our interests. Why should the family in Ontario not be allowed to eat salmon from Canada's waters? So where do we supply it? Probably means the sport quotas need to be drastically reduced, prices will substantially rise, and likely there will be no change in the fishery. You can't have a record return of Sockeye to the fraser river one year (when the farms are all there) and then the next year blame the decline on fish farms. The proverbial suck and blow. Never works. Fix the problems but killing the industry is narrow minded and bound for failure.

 

[GLG]

I am saying we can't increase the harvest of wild salmon at all. If we rid ourselves of the farms, something else will need to be sacrificed. Do we all agree that if the farms are eliminated, then the salmon quota for commercial fisheries should increase? If you say no, then who should be allowed to consume the publicly owned resource? Sporties? We are also a defined lobby group intent on protecting our interests. Why should the family in Ontario not be allowed to eat salmon from Canada's waters? So where do we supply it? Probably means the sport quotas need to be drastically reduced, prices will substantially rise, and likely there will be no change in the fishery. You can't have a record return of Sockeye to the fraser river one year (when the farms are all there) and then the next year blame the decline on fish farms. The proverbial suck and blow. Never works. Fix the problems but killing the industry is narrow minded and bound for failure.

Sorry I can't really follow your arguments......

 

[terrin]

Sorry I can't really follow your arguments......

Just a new version of the same old Circle these Fish Farm proponents want to go through. I can't really follow his arguements either.

 

[spopadyn]

Sorry I can't really follow your arguments......

What I am saying is if you remove the farmed salmon from the food supply equation, it will need to be made up of salmon from somewhere else. The only other source is the wild stocks. Since that supply is fixed, the ratios of who gets what will need to be altered. In the end, I want what you want. I am certain though that removing aquaculture from the supply side will have detrimental effects on the wild salmon. Or at least on what we are allowed to fish for....

GLG, I have no real beef with those who want to protect our wild salmon. I just think it is the same argument over and over again by environmentalists that fail to look at the entire system. If you have no pipelines for oil, well it will come on rail. If you shut down Alberta's oil and gas, guess that means we would rather buy it from the Mid east or Venezuela. If you close down salmon farming in BC, they will open up in Washington State, and fill the void we created with no change for us or any new benefit. All the virus issues etc remain. But, 15000 jobs sent south in an industry that needs them. A cool billion slides to the US which is right now removing regulations and lowering taxes on corporations. We will make ourselves a have not country and then squabble about the resource we squandered. Seen this far to much in Canada and we need to be way more progressive.

 

[spopadyn]

M

Just a new version of the same old Circle these Fish Farm proponents want to go through. I can't really follow his arguements either.

Math is hard.... Tell me where we find 30000 MT of salmon to fill the store shelves?

 

[Fishmyster]

spopadyn, I do fully understand you argument and agree. It does seem senseless to condemn a viable industry in ff rather than learn and grow from it. The agriculture industry is another example of need for food and economics vs potential environmental stressors. So with fossil fuel extraction. In my opinion it is the ff scientists who could teach the media driven scientists a thing of two about aquatic propagation.

This whole ff witch hunt has gone out of control with some people even profiting from it! There are many other species both terrestrial and marine that have shown equal depression or changes in population status as salmon but because they are not the targets of human interest their losses go unchecked.

Hopefully the natural conditions improve enough for natural salmon populations to improve soon! This way everyone can be redirected to harvesting instead of focused on finger pointing.

 

[bigdogeh]

M

Math is hard.... Tell me where we find 30000 MT of salmon to fill the store shelves?

https://www.seafoodsource.com/news/...d-350-million-land-based-salmon-farm-in-miami

 

[spopadyn]

https://www.seafoodsource.com/news/...d-350-million-land-based-salmon-farm-in-miami

Does this exist today and is it economically viable? Lets see how it works out or better yet, lets support a pilot program. Everyone on side, great who is accepting the donations for the promotion of this form of fish farming.

 

[cuttlefish]

Show me in this study which applies directly to pacific species where you have quoted that from that was a result on a pacific salmon from being directly blatantly obviously injected with PRV. Be honest. I cant help but notice you did not provide a link in your last post. Care to do so?

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0146229

So thanks for the link Birdsnest. I read the paper in it's entirety and came away with more questions than answers. Especially since the Discussion concludes with; "Caution is therefore needed for current interpretations of the influence of PRV during manifestations of disease such as HSMI, as important components regarding disease causation are as yet unknown, and virulent manifestations of PRV in concert with cofactors such as viral co-infection [30], host condition, or specific environmental circumstances will need careful future consideration in understanding the role of PRV in diseases such as HSMI." Aslo, I could not find where they injected sockeye salmon with PRv. They did inject Atlantic salmon but used PRv naive sockeye only as sentinels in some of the cohabitation experiments.
Anyway, more more work needs to be done before anyone can come to a conclusive answer to the question of the role of NP PRv in either Atlantic Salmon or sockeye salmon.
What is clear to me is the serious infectious nature of PRv variants on other species of salmonids, i.e., rainbow trout, aka steelhead salmon (Oncorhinchus mykiss). http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0180293.
I can't emphasize enough my concerns with allowing a variant of PRv, even if it is a non-virulent strain, to be transferred into net pens holding hundreds of thousands of potential hosts for more than one year. Or, for that matter, to discharge PRv from a processing plant into the major migration route of naive wild salmon day after day after day. This is fundamentally stupid on the part of a responsible regulator and, as far as I am concerned, just asking for trouble.

 

[spopadyn]

So thanks for the link Birdsnest. I read the paper in it's entirety and came away with more questions than answers. Especially since the Discussion concludes with; "Caution is therefore needed for current interpretations of the influence of PRV during manifestations of disease such as HSMI, as important components regarding disease causation are as yet unknown, and virulent manifestations of PRV in concert with cofactors such as viral co-infection [30], host condition, or specific environmental circumstances will need careful future consideration in understanding the role of PRV in diseases such as HSMI." Aslo, I could not find where they injected sockeye salmon with PRv. They did inject Atlantic salmon but used PRv naive sockeye only as sentinels in some of the cohabitation experiments.
Anyway, more more work needs to be done before anyone can come to a conclusive answer to the question of the role of NP PRv in either Atlantic Salmon or sockeye salmon.
What is clear to me is the serious infectious nature of PRv variants on other species of salmonids, i.e., rainbow trout, aka steelhead salmon (Oncorhinchus mykiss). http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0180293.
I can't emphasize enough my concerns with allowing a variant of PRv, even if it is a non-virulent strain, to be transferred into net pens holding hundreds of thousands of potential hosts for more than one year. Or, for that matter, to discharge PRv from a processing plant into the major migration route of naive wild salmon day after day after day. This is fundamentally stupid on the part of a responsible regulator and, as far as I am concerned, just asking for trouble.

I like your response because it shows an appreciation for the bigger picture. I would add, even though there is no conclusive proof of a link between PRV and HSMI, how could we reduce the PRV in the salmon farming operations? Note - not shut down but try to solve the PRV issue. Are the salmon used in the aqua farms infected before they arrive or is it naturally occurring and as a result of the closed quarters it cause wide spread infections? Is there a treatment to eradicate or would the treatment cause something worse? Not a fish biologist but these are the things I would rather sign petitions for! Lets help our industry and not destroy it.