Creel survey

[Rockfish]

survey data collected is used by biologists to assess fish stocks biologists are our friends our enemys are beuracrats in ottawa making political decisions on little common sense

I agree

There was a time when I also was annoyed with DFO using this data against us, but I have long since changed that view. One of the tactics and sound bites that the Commie Halibut Lobby used against us in their public PR campaign was to say that they track every fish (there system is not as exact as they say it is) where the sport sector does not and therefore our stats cannot be trusted and since no one knows what we actually catch we should not be giver a fairer allocation. DFO and us argued that the sport monitoring system is accurate and accepted by the international committee that determines Canada’s TAC. To undermine that system is to weaken our case. That said I think that system actually over estimates our catch but to refuse to cooperate with it is not a good strategy for us. Further to refuse to cooperate is likely recorded and tracked and I would think they would estimate the catch of those refusals and they would not be in a good mood when they did so.

 

[Charlie]

I agree

There was a time when I also was annoyed with DFO using this data against us, but I have long since changed that view. One of the tactics and sound bites that the Commie Halibut Lobby used against us in their public PR campaign was to say that they track every fish (there system is not as exact as they say it is) where the sport sector does not and therefore our stats cannot be trusted and since no one knows what we actually catch we should not be giver a fairer allocation. DFO and us argued that the sport monitoring system is accurate and accepted by the international committee that determines Canada’s TAC. To undermine that system is to weaken our case. That said I think that system actually over estimates our catch but to refuse to cooperate with it is not a good strategy for us. Further to refuse to cooperate is likely recorded and tracked and I would think they would estimate the catch of those refusals and they would not be in a good mood when they did so.

Ah... YEP! When it comes to halibut the biggest problem IMHO with the Creel Surveys is those surveyors run past the normal sport angler straight for the quide boats; which therefore taints those estimates, resulting in an 'over estimate' of halibut! There is NOT enough information collected from those normal anglers! An 'unguided' sport, especially with any halibut onboard should be running toward those Creel surveyors - not away from them!

 

[SerengetiGuide]

And guides often submit log books as well which is then put into the data...how does DFO make sure it is not duplicating? They say they have a "method" but don't explain it. Hence why if I decide to do a logbook this year (IF) then I will not be doing creel surveys as well.

 

[Peahead]

And guides often submit log books as well which is then put into the data...how does DFO make sure it is not duplicating? They say they have a "method" but don't explain it. Hence why if I decide to do a logbook this year (IF) then I will not be doing creel surveys as well.[/QUOTE

If providing the guide log duplicates info beeing taken for the exact same research as the Creel, I wouldn't bother giving the same exact info yet again to the Creel Surveyor. I will however try to find that out for you the reasoning if that is not the case ....if there is a need to do that twice.

 

[Doug]

For all the fishermen who say "I'm not giving DFO nothing. DFO will only shut us down."

My question is "How's that been working for you?" It's clear it hasn't. It's become a self-fulfilling prophesy - Give DFO nothing and DFO shuts us down.

The creel survey is the only existing way of determining what is being caught using limited resources. It's a scientific model that needs numbers not ********. If there is NO information available, then the model says there are NO fish.

Not voluntarily supplying the creel survey and head count data has created a false assumption at DFO that there are no fish and this is why the slot limit in zone 19/20 has been forced on us.

How does not providing accurate information screw the sports fishery?

Let's assume that a plane flies over zone 19/20 on May 1st. They count 100 boats fishing. A creel count monitor at one of the Sooke docks counts 10 boats coming in. Out of the 10 boats arriving they count 5 fish caught. The creel count monitor in Victoria counts 20 boats coming in and 10 fish caught. So based on 100 boats counted in the fly over and the creel monitors count of an average of 1 fish per 2 boats fishing they assume 50 fish were caught. Thus, DFO assumes there is only ONE FISH for every TWO BOATS in the water.

The head recovery program person collects all the heads from all the docks in zone 19/20. Back at DFO they analyze and log the heads into a spread sheet that notes the date caught, size, tag, etc. They take the spread sheet data and look at the fly over date of May 1st and see that in zone 19/20 only 5 fish heads were submitted in the head recovery program as hatchery fish. They review the fly over and see that the fish caught assessment for May 1st was 50 fish caught. So they assume that if only 5 heads were turned in as hatchery, 45 fish caught must have been wild.

Going back a few years ago there were lots of heads were being turned in and the assessed catch of endangered fish caught in zone 19/20 was running at around 1%. Last year in zone 19/20 that percentage was 11%? Why did the number spike by 10%? It's the lack of information provided. For the last two years the heads and tags I put into the head count bucket were being taken for crab bait while my tags littered the dock. At another dock they moved the freezer to the parking lot from the cleaning station and the heads submitted into that freezer decreased from hundreds to tens.

Everyone knows the most fishing licences are sold in the Victoria area. We all know that most of the fish we are catching March to June are Puget Sound (US) hatchery fish but when you look at the number of hatchery heads submitted, the data currently available says that the fish caught at this time are mostly wild because no heads are submitted.

If time and money were no object DFO could fly planes to count boats every day, and DFO could hire one person per fisherman to take the fish heads as they were being cut off at the cleaning stations. Then DFO wouldn't need our help. Then we could prove the models they created are accurate within some statistical margin of error. But, until DFO gets a multi-trillion dollar budget or until someone comes up with a better way of assessing what fish are being caught, the creel survey and head count are the best tools that scientists have and it's up to us to make sure those numbers are right.

How about we lose the paranoia, ditch the old way of doing thing, and take charge of our future? For the next five years let's give DFO all the numbers they want. The numbers won't lie and not just knowledge, but information is power. Information is the only way of understanding what is actually going on.

Of course, that assumes that we get to fish at all.

 

[Rockfish]

Ah... YEP! When it comes to halibut the biggest problem IMHO with the Creel Surveys is those surveyors run past the normal sport angler straight for the quide boats; which therefore taints those estimates, resulting in an 'over estimate' of halibut! There is NOT enough information collected from those normal anglers! An 'unguided' sport, especially with any halibut onboard should be running toward those Creel surveyors - not away from them!

I fully agree we should fully comply with the Creel Surveys and we should make it an issue with DFO that the Surveyers do not target disproportionally guides as they are at least 20 times more efficent at catching than your average license holder.

Ask Englishman how hard it is to learn to consistently catch Summer Chinook yet the guides do it in spades every day. DFO then counts all the boats out there and determines catch rate that is inflated based on the guide catch. For this reason I do not like guide log books.

One wonders how much time they spend at a dock with no quides working at it as compared to one that has a bunch of quides working out of it.

 

[wolf]

We did provide and look what has happened .......we are shut down so we provide more and it goes further?? go ahead i dont want any part of dealing with them pricks!!!
I went out of my way and talked a few into doing the log book program 3 years ago we were "supposed"to have a meeting to discuss futher plans ZIP one thing about me is you LIE to me i wont trust you... and thats as clear as I can say!!!!! they lied to me right at my face YES im stubborn but you can only kick me once and look out once I get up!!!!

 

[Englishman]

Ask Englishman how hard it is to learn to consistently catch Summer Chinook yet the guides do it in spades ever day. DFO then counts all the boats out there and dermines catch rate that is inflated based on the guide catch. For this reason I do not like guide log books.

Amen to that one Rockfish!

I have to side with those on here who say we should cooperate with the surveys. As a scientist by training (many years ago !!) I believe in having facts, evidence and data over assumptions, guesswork, and unsubstantiated accusations every time.

That said, the biology and science are one thing. Dealing with the politicians and administrators who make the decisions, but who are ignorant of science and incompetent to actually make natural resource management decisions, is quite another problem. Alec Morton's talk last night made that abundantly clear, especially when they are fettered by WTO and other regulations.

Somehow, someway DFO needs to be de-politicised or replaced by something else. Alex called it "The Department of Wild Salmon" and it is up to us, the people to realise that vision. Until then we are at the mercy of a political power structure who's head man believes the world is only 6000 years old!! We will never get sanity and good science in that environment!!

 

[Charter Tofino]

For all the fishermen who say "I'm not giving DFO nothing. DFO will only shut us down."

My question is "How's that been working for you?" It's clear it hasn't. It's become a self-fulfilling prophesy - Give DFO nothing and DFO shuts us down.

The creel survey is the only existing way of determining what is being caught using limited resources. It's a scientific model that needs numbers not ********. If there is NO information available, then the model says there are NO fish.

Not voluntarily supplying the creel survey and head count data has created a false assumption at DFO that there are no fish and this is why the slot limit in zone 19/20 has been forced on us.

How does not providing accurate information screw the sports fishery?

Let's assume that a plane flies over zone 19/20 on May 1st. They count 100 boats fishing. A creel count monitor at one of the Sooke docks counts 10 boats coming in. Out of the 10 boats arriving they count 5 fish caught. The creel count monitor in Victoria counts 20 boats coming in and 10 fish caught. So based on 100 boats counted in the fly over and the creel monitors count of an average of 1 fish per 2 boats fishing they assume 50 fish were caught. Thus, DFO assumes there is only ONE FISH for every TWO BOATS in the water.

The head recovery program person collects all the heads from all the docks in zone 19/20. Back at DFO they analyze and log the heads into a spread sheet that notes the date caught, size, tag, etc. They take the spread sheet data and look at the fly over date of May 1st and see that in zone 19/20 only 5 fish heads were submitted in the head recovery program as hatchery fish. They review the fly over and see that the fish caught assessment for May 1st was 50 fish caught. So they assume that if only 5 heads were turned in as hatchery, 45 fish caught must have been wild.

Going back a few years ago there were lots of heads were being turned in and the assessed catch of endangered fish caught in zone 19/20 was running at around 1%. Last year in zone 19/20 that percentage was 11%? Why did the number spike by 10%? It's the lack of information provided. For the last two years the heads and tags I put into the head count bucket were being taken for crab bait while my tags littered the dock. At another dock they moved the freezer to the parking lot from the cleaning station and the heads submitted into that freezer decreased from hundreds to tens.

Everyone knows the most fishing licences are sold in the Victoria area. We all know that most of the fish we are catching March to June are Puget Sound (US) hatchery fish but when you look at the number of hatchery heads submitted, the data currently available says that the fish caught at this time are mostly wild because no heads are submitted.

If time and money were no object DFO could fly planes to count boats every day, and DFO could hire one person per fisherman to take the fish heads as they were being cut off at the cleaning stations. Then DFO wouldn't need our help. Then we could prove the models they created are accurate within some statistical margin of error. But, until DFO gets a multi-trillion dollar budget or until someone comes up with a better way of assessing what fish are being caught, the creel survey and head count are the best tools that scientists have and it's up to us to make sure those numbers are right.

How about we lose the paranoia, ditch the old way of doing thing, and take charge of our future? For the next five years let's give DFO all the numbers they want. The numbers won't lie and not just knowledge, but information is power. Information is the only way of understanding what is actually going on.

Of course, that assumes that we get to fish at all.

Well said! It's annoying to hear the guys on here complain about inaccurate numbers being recorded yet these same people refuse to help the creel. Hypocrites....

 

[Tailspin]

After 4-5 years of the logbook and many more with creels I’m done with it all. What will another 5 years do? Fill your boots, maybe it will allow advanced notice on in season changes. I can think of up to 15 off the top of my head, who are on the same page who did vigilant logbooks in good faith with high hopes that more accountable measures will be utilized prior to closures/slots etc. I’ll continue to place my efforts into volunteer enhancement efforts in the many small creeks of Van Isle as I have done the past twenty years. I have lost faith in the entire system due to the fact that only 19/20 are being targets of so called conservation based area of concern on a mere wym that it’s going to affect positive change on ET Fraser runs. It’s a blindfolded guess at best. We are a easy target to appease the public eye and fall back on if things continue South for ET Chinook. It’s political not Scientific based measures IMO.

 

[fshnfnatic]

I myself will be cooperating with the surveys,as I always have. In fact,I would encourage more of them to be taken.I'm
firm in belief that this is the only way we can obtain the data that is nessesary for the proper decisions to be made on
behalf of the salmon. What the FN do to them when they hit the river is,unfortunatly,out of our control at this time.
To not provide honest,and complete info would only make matters worse for our cause,which I think we all agree,is
the recovery of the highly stressed stocks. This is only the opinion of a recreational fisherman. If I was a guide,and this
affected my livelihood,I'm sure my thoughts would be entirely different,so I do empathize with your opinions on here.

 

[Theb55]

Seems To be overwhelmingly supportive of creel surveys.

 

[Deewar25]

Seems To be overwhelmingly supportive of creel surveys.

Doug nailed it IMH and I've said it elsewhere, we are in this mess because of the lack of accurate information. Because of those stubborn types that refuse to cooperate with creel and so we get penalized because of lack of information - YES, it was stated DFO goes out of the way to penalize when they don't get the information they need from us. The head return for example is absolutely critical for us because we all know it will show with enough numbers, that we take WAY less Fraser than they think. Same goes for creel, and certainly hunt them down when you are skunked. I bet many just try their best to just avoid them because they think 'oh, I have no info them them'...when in fact, that is CRITICAL information to know your boat was out there and caught nothing.

At the same time, I get the problem with the log books. That has been the most reliable information DFO likely has received over the last few years, but its stats based on the best of the best...the guys out there every day that know what they are doing and put up the salmon numbers. DFO can't be 'that dumb' to know this is misleading, but I'm sure their 'formula' to calculate the average of joe blow based on these books is a crock of chit.

Yeah, feels like we get nowhere when we do the right thing and provide information, but ask yourself this, how is NOT providing information going to help ANYTHING!!!?????

 

[Rockfish]

Doug nailed it IMH and I've said it elsewhere, we are in this mess because of the lack of accurate information. Because of those stubborn types that refuse to cooperate with creel and so we get penalized because of lack of information - YES, it was stated DFO goes out of the way to penalize when they don't get the information they need from us. The head return for example is absolutely critical for us because we all know it will show with enough numbers, that we take WAY less Fraser than they think. Same goes for creel, and certainly hunt them down when you are skunked. I bet many just try their best to just avoid them because they think 'oh, I have no info them them'...when in fact, that is CRITICAL information to know your boat was out there and caught nothing.

At the same time, I get the problem with the log books. That has been the most reliable information DFO likely has received over the last few years, but its stats based on the best of the best...the guys out there every day that know what they are doing and put up the salmon numbers. DFO can't be 'that dumb' to know this is misleading, but I'm sure their 'formula' to calculate the average of joe blow based on these books is a crock of chit.

Yeah, feels like we get nowhere when we do the right thing and provide information, but ask yourself this, how is NOT providing information going to help ANYTHING!!!?????

I think you are right Dave. It is the vast majority of sport boats that come in off the water without any summer Chinook that is critical to get included in the Creel surveys, some view it as being policed by an authority figure like in a road block and if you get waved through it is a win.

They almost always work alone and it is true (we have all seen it) that if there are a bunch of boats coming in at the same time and they see boxes of salmon going to the cleaning station, they will always focus on those first and get to those with nothing showing later, MAYBE, and IF THEY ARE STILL AROUND. I don’t know what can be done about this built in survey bias, it’s somewhat understandable as they want to count fish and take samples for analysis and empty boats are just boring.

Perhaps this is a question for SFAB to ask DFO. – Does this not lead to an over reporting of the sport catch of Fraser Chinook stocks? If the answer is no, ask them for an explanation.

 

[sundance]

to bad you guides and fellow fisherman dont turn your heads in we work our butt off incold water to get brood stock back to goldstream hatchery ,we get better then 50 % clipped fish back ,we have to fight to get momeys for fish food also money from dfo for head pins ,if we get less heads turned in we will lose more funding ,and dfo will close areas in caution so be stubborn your only screwing your selves ,to bad you guys didnt show up in the fall to give us some help ,were are good at catching but not giving back? GARY,ESQUIMALT ANGLERS PRESIDENT !

 

[Tailspin]

That's a bit bold! Don't paint all with that brush. I agree often there's not enough support, but I spend my dues soaked to the butt in the fall, as do many others on this forum, guides and non guides alike. Many are speaking out of complete frustration with the latest news. I turn all my heads in to show hatcheries work, most are of unknown US orgin. Tell me how carrying on with the same old creels and log books is going to effect positive change? How do we know it's not shooting our own foots? We don't. Again the creels don't come to pacific lions or cheanuh so it's not an option for me. The log book is my concern. The accuracy alone? Is a guide going to say he caught no fish for a week or put down false numbers? Say hatch only? The bottom line is we require a drastic change in the gameplan. This is a area specific slot/closure.

 

[Aces]

That's a bit bold! Don't paint all with that brush. I agree often there's not enough support, but I spend my dues soaked to the butt in the fall, as do many others on this forum, guides and non guides alike. Many are speaking out of complete frustration with the latest news. I turn all my heads in to show hatcheries work, most are of unknown US orgin. Tell me how carrying on with the same old creels and log books is going to effect positive change? How do we know it's not shooting our own foots? We don't. Again the creels don't come to pacific lions or cheanuh so it's not an option for me. The log book is my concern. The accuracy alone? Is a guide going to say he caught no fish for a week or put down false numbers? Say hatch only? The bottom line is we require a drastic change in the gameplan. This is a area specific slot/closure.

When i attended the WCFG assn meeting recently the creel sector was represented. They were adament that there wouldn't be double dipping on the estimates/creel survey numbers.

That being said i'm still very skepical of the way the numbers are collected and declined to participate in the E-Log program for this season due to the fact that DFO has a track record for lying to us rec fishermen.

 

[profisher]

The guy I respect the most when it comes to his knowledge of both our fisheries and of how DFO works. (or doesn't work) is Tom Davis. He is a supporter of the creel survey, so until his opinion changes I will support it too. That doesn't mean I'm supporting the bureaucrats at DFO...I'm supporting the scientists.

Gary..I understand your frustration. While their are many good people who guide for a living there are also many who sadly are only involved for themselves. This has been unchanged for as long as I've been fishing. I remember guys back in the days when putter licenses were available for a dollar to sport fishermen. A license allowing you to sell your fish to guys like Ed Pallister in Sooke. My grandfather did it. Many of these guys fished every spare minute they had from their regular jobs and they seemed as passionate about fishing as we are today. When the licenses were pulled and they could no longer sell their fish, many just walked away and never fished again. Obviously they were only passionate about making the extra cash while doing something that seemed not so much like work. Sadly it will always be the same, the dedicated few trying to repair the damage caused by the many.

 

[JuandeOne]

the guy i respect the most when it comes to his knowledge of both our fisheries and of how dfo works. (or doesn't work) is tom davis. He is a supporter of the creel survey, so until his opinion changes i will support it too. That doesn't mean i'm supporting the bureaucrats at dfo...i'm supporting the scientists.

Gary..i understand your frustration. While their are many good people who guide for a living there are also many who sadly are only involved for themselves. This has been unchanged for as long as i've been fishing. I remember guys back in the days when putter licenses were available for a dollar to sport fishermen. A license allowing you to sell your fish to guys like ed pallister in sooke. My grandfather did it. Many of these guys fished every spare minute they had from their regular jobs and they seemed as passionate about fishing as we are today. When the licenses were pulled and they could no longer sell their fish, many just walked away and never fished again. Obviously they were only passionate about making the extra cash while doing something that seemed not so much like work. Sadly it will always be the same, the dedicated few trying to repair the damage caused by the many.

x 2!!!!!!!!

 

[Whole in the Water]

Originally Posted by profisher
the guy i respect the most when it comes to his knowledge of both our fisheries and of how dfo works. (or doesn't work) is tom davis. He is a supporter of the creel survey, so until his opinion changes i will support it too. That doesn't mean i'm supporting the bureaucrats at dfo...i'm supporting the scientists.

Gary..i understand your frustration. While their are many good people who guide for a living there are also many who sadly are only involved for themselves. This has been unchanged for as long as i've been fishing. I remember guys back in the days when putter licenses were available for a dollar to sport fishermen. A license allowing you to sell your fish to guys like ed pallister in sooke. My grandfather did it. Many of these guys fished every spare minute they had from their regular jobs and they seemed as passionate about fishing as we are today. When the licenses were pulled and they could no longer sell their fish, many just walked away and never fished again. Obviously they were only passionate about making the extra cash while doing something that seemed not so much like work. Sadly it will always be the same, the dedicated few trying to repair the damage caused by the many.

x 2!!!!!!!!

X 3 for me!