scott craven
Well-Known Member
Agreed, excellent well thought post Bassblaster.
if only everyone were on the same page ?
if only everyone were on the same page ?
Cambell Riiver Halibut meeting
- Thread starter Islandgirl
- Start date
Bassblaster
Active Member
The post was not meant for you to "Fell bad about the gifted 88%". As I said, the fact that it was GIFTED is what is pissing us all off. As a past business owner I can identify with the guides. You pay for liscences, registrations, advertising, etc. etc. Nothing burned my cheeks more in my chosen fields than guys working under the table and taking work from me. The Commercial fisherman also pay for their business costs, but that initial allocation was a freebee. That's what's unfair about the 88%. If they had to pay all the costs involved in just having OUR resources given to them, and ALL of that money had gone to improving the fishery, we wouldn't be having this topic on the forum.
If you want to get into long winded discussions about how there is contractual inequity in government contracts and allocations in ALL fields, and that somehow the wealthy party supporters and corporations get all the good ones, and then when things don't work out or go over budget how it is okay because the rest of us taxpayers will just fork out the doe, we can do that too.
By the way, if it had been you that got a portion of the 88%, would you feel the same way?
Not slamming you Gypseas, but if we don't work together on the real problem we can kiss Sport AND Commercial fishing goodbye.
If you want to get into long winded discussions about how there is contractual inequity in government contracts and allocations in ALL fields, and that somehow the wealthy party supporters and corporations get all the good ones, and then when things don't work out or go over budget how it is okay because the rest of us taxpayers will just fork out the doe, we can do that too.
By the way, if it had been you that got a portion of the 88%, would you feel the same way?
Not slamming you Gypseas, but if we don't work together on the real problem we can kiss Sport AND Commercial fishing goodbye.
D
Ding Dong!
Guest
"Bassblaster" thank you for having the skills to elaborate and speak on a level that I have been unable to accomplish. Apparently I have been labeled a commie for having the same ideals and views that you have just so eloquently expressed. Thank you for investing your time to help others understand that there are other options available. I am of the firm belief that all sectors must work together in order to progress. Again, thank you for sharing your message and for making your investment clear.
Ps. Halibut and Groundfish fleet must account for all bycatch and buy quota for all non-target species that they catch.
Ps. Halibut and Groundfish fleet must account for all bycatch and buy quota for all non-target species that they catch.
-steelhead-
Member
Bassblaster: nice write up and I was at the meeting as well and I wholeheartedly agree that commies and sporties should work together to increase pressure on the DFO to work harder and spend more money to increase fish stocks. I also agree that there is way more that can be done to protect fish habitats and commercial fishing practices.
Good post.
Good post.
Jencourt
Well-Known Member
Well Chris:
I will say I agree with much of what you said. The big, the reel big, the biggest issue is the fact that DFO is unwilling or unable to manage our fish stocks in a proper manner. Yes the economy plays a huge role in the lack of bookings and sales related to fishing. YES all sectors need to unite in the fight to hold DFO accountable for that witch they are mandated to do. Protect our fish and their habitat .I do however disagree with your statement .Quote “So I will say it again, this is not a Halibut issue”. There is a Halibut issue, and it is caused by DFO. The fight is not against the commercial fishermen. It is against DFO for allocating 88%of the available harvest-able Halibut to commercial fisherman, We can get into all the other resources that are handled the same way and how other businesses are run ect .That is exactly what those opposed to re-allocating some of the available catch to public access want us to do.
We need to stay focused. Even if there was more Halibut than any of us could ever want to fish for the fundamental wrong will still be present. Why is DFO allocating most of one of Canada’s most precious food sources to 436 quota holders and giving them the right to treat it as a private business and profit from it in ways it is not intended. This is the Halibut issue. Not that it was first given to them free. Even if the first quotas had to be purchased, the policy in place today is fundamentally and I am sure constitutionally wrong. It is not in the best interest of all Canadians. So no, this problem does not go away if there are lots of fish. You said you have a good understanding of what it takes to fight government and policy. If that is true then you know that if we hope to be successful in correcting the big issue we need to win the battles one at a time. This very reel Halibut issue is the stepping stone that other issues can be measured by. I say this because I feel it is heavily rooted in the fundamental issue that DFO has operated under for as long as I can remember.”Business first” And that I feel is the big issue.That is why I am involved.
I respect what you have said here and I say this to you. Although you said some very good things and gave everyone a much needed nudge to re analyze what it is we are doing here and who the fight really is against. I would ask you to not let the endless bickering and the enormity of the whole DFO problem distract us from the issue that is before us on this day.
My two cents for what it is worth: Ray
I will say I agree with much of what you said. The big, the reel big, the biggest issue is the fact that DFO is unwilling or unable to manage our fish stocks in a proper manner. Yes the economy plays a huge role in the lack of bookings and sales related to fishing. YES all sectors need to unite in the fight to hold DFO accountable for that witch they are mandated to do. Protect our fish and their habitat .I do however disagree with your statement .Quote “So I will say it again, this is not a Halibut issue”. There is a Halibut issue, and it is caused by DFO. The fight is not against the commercial fishermen. It is against DFO for allocating 88%of the available harvest-able Halibut to commercial fisherman, We can get into all the other resources that are handled the same way and how other businesses are run ect .That is exactly what those opposed to re-allocating some of the available catch to public access want us to do.
We need to stay focused. Even if there was more Halibut than any of us could ever want to fish for the fundamental wrong will still be present. Why is DFO allocating most of one of Canada’s most precious food sources to 436 quota holders and giving them the right to treat it as a private business and profit from it in ways it is not intended. This is the Halibut issue. Not that it was first given to them free. Even if the first quotas had to be purchased, the policy in place today is fundamentally and I am sure constitutionally wrong. It is not in the best interest of all Canadians. So no, this problem does not go away if there are lots of fish. You said you have a good understanding of what it takes to fight government and policy. If that is true then you know that if we hope to be successful in correcting the big issue we need to win the battles one at a time. This very reel Halibut issue is the stepping stone that other issues can be measured by. I say this because I feel it is heavily rooted in the fundamental issue that DFO has operated under for as long as I can remember.”Business first” And that I feel is the big issue.That is why I am involved.
I respect what you have said here and I say this to you. Although you said some very good things and gave everyone a much needed nudge to re analyze what it is we are doing here and who the fight really is against. I would ask you to not let the endless bickering and the enormity of the whole DFO problem distract us from the issue that is before us on this day.
My two cents for what it is worth: Ray
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Fish-Hunter
Active Member
Yes Bassblaster, good post, I have been trying to put most of these same thoughts together for last bit here, but hard to get it straight in my mind to be able to type it out, good on you for your writing skills.
I do think that the working commercial guys and the Sporties should be working together to force DFO to make a change. The Working Commercial guys have a lot to gain for straightening this out in that, if the ministry took the quotas back, and on a yearly basis, sold/leased similar volumes to the working guys at a realistic value per pound (which by all acounts could be significantly less than what they currently pay for extra quota to the Slipper Skippers - NFQH's - Non Fishing Quota Holders), the costs to manage the fishery would be covered by these lease costs to the Commercials (yearly quota) and the Sporties (Halibut tags).
DFO could stand to generate more revenue to properly support and manage the whole fishery (this would be better all around for CANADA), we would have complete accountability and actual #s of Sporties fishing for the Halibut. The Commercials already have a good accounting for the #s and pounds for the fish caught in their sector, the Sporties could submit catch reports quarterly and if none submitted for the year - no lisence next year until it is filled out and submitted, now we truely know how much Canada is catching and now DFO can manage it (yes they will actually have to do something here but that is what we pay them for). Now I do not have validation for these numbers here so if I am out to lunch someone please set me straight here, I gather that the Commercial guys are currently paying somewhere close to $0.50/lb for halibut lisence ($.010/lb) and for management/harvest accounting ($0.40/lb). Now I have heard several numbers thrown about in regards to the lease costs that the active working guys pay to the NFQH's at around $3.00 to $5.00/lb. To the point, if DFO charges every sector the same cost per pound of Halibut, say $1.50/lb, now they are generating apox $1.00/lb for CANADA that they currently do not. The Commercial guys are now getting their quota from 1/2 the price to $3.50/lb less than they pay to the NFQH's. The Sporties, if there are 100,000 of us out there fishing for Halibut, and if we needed say for arguments sake double what we had last year (900,000lbs) now 1.8mlbs, this would work out to aproximately $27.00 for each Halibut Tag (who would not pay this for a properly managed species???).
Now back to the Commercials benefiting from a change to the current system, if they have to pay less for their yearly quota (to DFO - CANADA, not the NFQH's), the profit margins on their catch WILL go UP! We are still working here within the same TAC that is set yearly by the IPHC, the total amount available to catch isn't any different from today, unless the TAC goes down in a given year, and IF the TAC goes down then the market prices would stand to go up by Supply and Demand, making the profitability for the Commercials even better. IF the Commercials did end up with less fish to catch per year due to increased share demands from the sporties and the ground fish fleets by-catch, they would still stand to make more $$ than they are making today by having to catch more volume to make any money, because the Non-Fishing Quota Holders NFQH's are bleeding the active working fishermen through high quota leases so that these guys can go out and catch more fish to make less profit margin. Yes they could fish less and make more by standing up with us to force DFO to make a change.
Now DFO is not going to voluntarily make this change, as it is going to be monumental to do and it won't be easy. They also won't be motivated by those that are supporting them and making their jobs easier today (the NFQH's and the wealthy businesses and businessmen that have been investing in perpetual quotas for halibut that have a constant income attached to them for very little to no serious efforts - a good investment (that is, unless the Government of CANADA takes our resource back and puts it to better use for Canada).
Just a couple of my thoughts on this very frustrating issue.
Jay.
I do think that the working commercial guys and the Sporties should be working together to force DFO to make a change. The Working Commercial guys have a lot to gain for straightening this out in that, if the ministry took the quotas back, and on a yearly basis, sold/leased similar volumes to the working guys at a realistic value per pound (which by all acounts could be significantly less than what they currently pay for extra quota to the Slipper Skippers - NFQH's - Non Fishing Quota Holders), the costs to manage the fishery would be covered by these lease costs to the Commercials (yearly quota) and the Sporties (Halibut tags).
DFO could stand to generate more revenue to properly support and manage the whole fishery (this would be better all around for CANADA), we would have complete accountability and actual #s of Sporties fishing for the Halibut. The Commercials already have a good accounting for the #s and pounds for the fish caught in their sector, the Sporties could submit catch reports quarterly and if none submitted for the year - no lisence next year until it is filled out and submitted, now we truely know how much Canada is catching and now DFO can manage it (yes they will actually have to do something here but that is what we pay them for). Now I do not have validation for these numbers here so if I am out to lunch someone please set me straight here, I gather that the Commercial guys are currently paying somewhere close to $0.50/lb for halibut lisence ($.010/lb) and for management/harvest accounting ($0.40/lb). Now I have heard several numbers thrown about in regards to the lease costs that the active working guys pay to the NFQH's at around $3.00 to $5.00/lb. To the point, if DFO charges every sector the same cost per pound of Halibut, say $1.50/lb, now they are generating apox $1.00/lb for CANADA that they currently do not. The Commercial guys are now getting their quota from 1/2 the price to $3.50/lb less than they pay to the NFQH's. The Sporties, if there are 100,000 of us out there fishing for Halibut, and if we needed say for arguments sake double what we had last year (900,000lbs) now 1.8mlbs, this would work out to aproximately $27.00 for each Halibut Tag (who would not pay this for a properly managed species???).
Now back to the Commercials benefiting from a change to the current system, if they have to pay less for their yearly quota (to DFO - CANADA, not the NFQH's), the profit margins on their catch WILL go UP! We are still working here within the same TAC that is set yearly by the IPHC, the total amount available to catch isn't any different from today, unless the TAC goes down in a given year, and IF the TAC goes down then the market prices would stand to go up by Supply and Demand, making the profitability for the Commercials even better. IF the Commercials did end up with less fish to catch per year due to increased share demands from the sporties and the ground fish fleets by-catch, they would still stand to make more $$ than they are making today by having to catch more volume to make any money, because the Non-Fishing Quota Holders NFQH's are bleeding the active working fishermen through high quota leases so that these guys can go out and catch more fish to make less profit margin. Yes they could fish less and make more by standing up with us to force DFO to make a change.
Now DFO is not going to voluntarily make this change, as it is going to be monumental to do and it won't be easy. They also won't be motivated by those that are supporting them and making their jobs easier today (the NFQH's and the wealthy businesses and businessmen that have been investing in perpetual quotas for halibut that have a constant income attached to them for very little to no serious efforts - a good investment (that is, unless the Government of CANADA takes our resource back and puts it to better use for Canada).
Just a couple of my thoughts on this very frustrating issue.
Jay.
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Bassblaster
Active Member
I agree with you Ray. This is not a time to be bickering amongst ourselves. And I also agree that this is a Halibut issue. But it is also a Salmon issue. And all of the other fish.
And I agree that how the allocation was determined and handled was poorly done from the start. But ultimately, if the fish were there we would not be looking to take them from commercial fishers. As I said, it was how the allocation was handled that is pissing us all off. Our government screwed us over: again. But if the halibut were there to have a 2/2 limit or better again, would any of this be happening? Probably not. It seemed to be fine last year when I joined the site. It wasn't until another reduction in limits loomed again for the coming season that anyone spoke up.
As for looking at the big picture, I think I have done that and more.
And in regards to "letting the enormity of the DFO problem distract us from the issue"?, The problem with DFO IS the issue. Halibut seasons, limits, and allocation issues are simply smaller cogs in a larger machine.
I respect your opinion Ray. And I appreciate that you can respect mine. I am only trying to do what I believe will benefit all fishermen, and maybe even more importantly what will benefit the planet for future generations to enjoy. (And before anyone starts thinking that I'm some kind of tree-hugger, I used to build houses and am probably responsible for tens of thousands of trees over 20 years being turned into lumber, and as past publisher of Canada's national hunting and shooting sports magazine I have killed more than my fair share of animals, enough so that my wife will no longer let me hang them on the walls of our home.)
Thanks for you input.
And I agree that how the allocation was determined and handled was poorly done from the start. But ultimately, if the fish were there we would not be looking to take them from commercial fishers. As I said, it was how the allocation was handled that is pissing us all off. Our government screwed us over: again. But if the halibut were there to have a 2/2 limit or better again, would any of this be happening? Probably not. It seemed to be fine last year when I joined the site. It wasn't until another reduction in limits loomed again for the coming season that anyone spoke up.
As for looking at the big picture, I think I have done that and more.
And in regards to "letting the enormity of the DFO problem distract us from the issue"?, The problem with DFO IS the issue. Halibut seasons, limits, and allocation issues are simply smaller cogs in a larger machine.
I respect your opinion Ray. And I appreciate that you can respect mine. I am only trying to do what I believe will benefit all fishermen, and maybe even more importantly what will benefit the planet for future generations to enjoy. (And before anyone starts thinking that I'm some kind of tree-hugger, I used to build houses and am probably responsible for tens of thousands of trees over 20 years being turned into lumber, and as past publisher of Canada's national hunting and shooting sports magazine I have killed more than my fair share of animals, enough so that my wife will no longer let me hang them on the walls of our home.)
Thanks for you input.
A couple of well thought out posts. Please allow me to point out two items. One, while DFO is the problem, the allocation issue is part of the problem they created and this has been so from the beginning. the second item is that this is not something that has just become a concern over the last year or so. Some of us have been trying to work on this for quite a while. Many of the things suggested in your posts have been pointed out to DFoops repeatedly.
Cheers
Cheers
Karma-Kazi
Active Member
Yeah the number of worried fisherman have gone up by mass amounts since the days of our rolling protest downtown victoria. And still no results of change have occured!
-Steve
-Steve
scott craven
Well-Known Member
The average person just doesn't care as they have no vested interest.
no money tied up in boats,gear,marina's etc.
I wrote a letter to the editor and asked my wife to read it.
her eyes glazed over after the 1st paragraph.
People who are not actively involved in the sport, have no real reason to care.
Derby
Crew Member
Things are slow starting to happen it always take a lot of noise to wake up the powers to be in Ottawa- Keep pushing more things to come
Bassblaster
Active Member
That's my point.
The average joe has lost sight of where their food even comes from. The supermarket?
The East coast cod issue was almost 100% a commercial fishing issue. I have never seen an article in a magazine, or TV show about cod fishing for sport in my 47 years on this earth. But Halibut and salmon etc are different. Not that they are more important than the cod were, but in the fact that SPORT fishermen pursue them as well. For shear numbers the sportfishing community in this country is in the millions of people. We have the ability to have a very loud voice, if we work together. And that includes the "commies". WE all effect the fish stocks, now we all need to do something about them.
The average joe has lost sight of where their food even comes from. The supermarket?
The East coast cod issue was almost 100% a commercial fishing issue. I have never seen an article in a magazine, or TV show about cod fishing for sport in my 47 years on this earth. But Halibut and salmon etc are different. Not that they are more important than the cod were, but in the fact that SPORT fishermen pursue them as well. For shear numbers the sportfishing community in this country is in the millions of people. We have the ability to have a very loud voice, if we work together. And that includes the "commies". WE all effect the fish stocks, now we all need to do something about them.
Derby
Crew Member
Our government screwed us over: again. But if the halibut were there to have a 2/2 limit or better again, would any of this be happening? Probably not. It seemed to be fine last year when I joined the site. It wasn't until another reduction in limits loomed again for the coming season that anyone spoke up.
Bassblaster- Just wanted to point out that for over 7 years we have been involved in 3 different process trying to not get to this point-Last years 1 a day & another early season shut down was the tipping point. We can see the writing on the wall in regards to Crabs/Prawn/lings ect. not good -needs to stop-We have been pushed to far-
Bassblaster- Just wanted to point out that for over 7 years we have been involved in 3 different process trying to not get to this point-Last years 1 a day & another early season shut down was the tipping point. We can see the writing on the wall in regards to Crabs/Prawn/lings ect. not good -needs to stop-We have been pushed to far-
D
Ding Dong!
Guest
So far, everything that I have read is either speaking to the sport or commercial sectors or to the Gov. None of the articles and letters actually speak to the general public at all, and if they do reach a level of understanding it is for certain that their mind is thinking something other than what you want. Everything said so far talks above them on a higher level. Very few will get the message of concern and urgency, other than to bark that 100,000 anglers want more fish to catch. The real opportunity for sport fisherman to speak to millions and millions of Canadians is being lost in the translations and explanations made by industry & sectoral minded people.
Ding Dong!
Ding Dong!
Deewar25
Well-Known Member
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