Aquaculture; improving????

[Stephen Kowalski]

So you claim I am all opinion with lots of finger pointing, then you follow up with 'I think" twice, 'maybe' once and a bit of finger pointing yourself? Thanks for your complete clarification.

The reason I say " I think" is because I could be incorrect. You make statements as facts which are not.

I have asked repeatedly on this thread of anyone who could tell me what impact the shutting down of fish farm's will have on the salmon runs. I have yet to get an answer. And, I think the Cohen report listed several issues responsible for our salmon run declines that had nothing to do with FF's, just doesn't seem to resonate.

Anyway, I think we all want to be on the right side of this. I don't sense anywhere that the pro-FF posters hate our wild salmon.

 

[agentaqua]

I think describing impacts to wild stocks as mere "virtue signaling" is an insult to those people and communities whom depend on wild salmon and have not had the voice to oppose the lies and stalling from our regulators that protect and promote the open net-pen industry in it's current methodology.

It is also an attempt to discredit those valid objections and criticisms rather than address them - something our regulators have been reluctant to do so - despite the ever-present yet credulous PR claims that the industry is "working hard at addressing concerns".

All one has to do is go back a few pages on this forum to see how the industry in NFLD tried to hide the die-off as well as the ISAv outbreak to see how incredulous that claim is.

Yep - released FF diseases are the gifts that keep on giving - you are right about that fact, Stephen - and PRv is here to stay in some form - to the detriment of the health of the wild stocks - as are other FF diseases.

This is where the discussion into virulence and disease transmission has application.

 

[Dave]

its not speculative.

If 90% ( of what and when by the way) died, my suggestion would show it readily.

 

[agentaqua]

The impacts of sea lice in the Broughton should be measureable Sino, just find salmonid enumerations from streams nearby salmon farms and compare that to streams away from farms.

That was done Dave - many times and places world-wide - and the FF pundits and the industry they represent and protect and DFO ignore much of the available science - and it therefore turns into an echo box where nobody listens. And who's industry does that benefit (HINT: not the people asking the questions):

https://livingoceans.org/sites/default/files/salmonFarming_sealice_on_juvenile_salmon_2008.pdf
https://meetings.pices.int/Publications/Presentations/PICES_17/5_s5_Mackas.pdf

Fish farms DO appear to be the main source of larval sea lice (L. salmonis) during the spring out-migration of wild migration of wild smolts

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-22458-8

A Global Assessment of Salmon Aquaculture Impacts on Wild Salmonids
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.0060033

Adult Returns of Wild Salmonids in Control (Black) and Exposed (Blue) Stocks, with Aquaculture Production (Red)

 

[patbay]

thanks for the links AA. I read through all the info and found it quite interesting. The nature.com study was showing a correlation of infestation with a lice count of 1.4 - 1.9 avg on some farms. The infestation rate at those numbers were as high as 11% on the out migrating Chum smolts. The study ended in 2016, but in 2018 and 2019 we saw some farms with as many as 30 lice per farmed fish. So we could extrapolate that number and the infestation rate would be through the roof.

 

[agentaqua]

Interesting indeed. The https://livingoceans.org/sites/default/files/salmonFarming_sealice_on_juvenile_salmon_2008.pdf link shows what might be expected w/o FFs.

 

[Dave]

That was done Dave - many times and places world-wide - and the FF pundits and the industry they represent and protect and DFO ignore much of the available science - and it therefore turns into an echo box where nobody listens. And who's industry does that benefit (HINT: not the people asking the questions):

https://livingoceans.org/sites/default/files/salmonFarming_sealice_on_juvenile_salmon_2008.pdf
https://meetings.pices.int/Publications/Presentations/PICES_17/5_s5_Mackas.pdf

Fish farms DO appear to be the main source of larval sea lice (L. salmonis) during the spring out-migration of wild migration of wild smolts

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-22458-8

A Global Assessment of Salmon Aquaculture Impacts on Wild Salmonids
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.0060033

Adult Returns of Wild Salmonids in Control (Black) and Exposed (Blue) Stocks, with Aquaculture Production (Red)

Ah, the Ford paper. Here is a comment about that

Corrolation ≠ causation

Posted by PLOSBiology on 07 May 2009 at 22:22 GMT

Author: Dallas Weaver, Ph.D.
Position: semi-retired
E-mail: deweaver@mac.com
Submitted Date: February 21, 2008
Published Date: February 22, 2008
This comment was originally posted as a “Reader Response” on the publication date indicated above. All Reader Responses are now available as comments.

The issue of impacts of aquaculture salmon on wild stocks may be a little more complex than implied in this article by Ford and Myers. Their case against aquaculture is based upon correlations, which are not equal to causation, unless we truly understand all the variables. In particular, the authors state than anthropogenic impacts on the control and subject sites are comparable. However, from the viewpoint of the aquaculturist, logistics is a major cost factor and there is a very strong incentive to be as close as possible to harbors, rail and truck facilities, processing facility, airports, support services, etc. This would imply that the controls may be very different in a variety of anthropogenic impacts than the controls ranging from water pollution to seal attraction to harbors with shelter and occasional free food in the form of fishermen’s by-catch.

Meanwhile, the last several decades have seen a large human migration to the coastal areas in most of the world and probably most of the sites studied. The observation that there is a general decrease in both the controls and test sites and that these decreases don’t correspond very well to the time of very rapid salmon farming expansion could raise questions about salmon farming being a cause rather than part of a larger demographic trend.

The fact that the authors stated that the impacts of the salmon farms are apparently non-linear with tonnage and decrease with increasing tonnage would also point to a more general cause. This non-linearity was attributed to the aquaculturists getting better, which is probably true in some respects, but they still have a strong incentive to maximize the yield. In considering disease issues in aquaculture, the density of farms is a critical variable, where the potential for major disease problems always increases with the tonnage and farm density. Witness the present problems in Chile with ISA, which is most heavily hitting areas with high tonnage (Marine Harvest cutting 1000 employees http://www.tcgnews.com/sa...). Another example would be the collapse of shrimp farming in Taiwan and then later in China – now recovered at lower farm density. From the viewpoint of the fish farmer, the disease threat is from the wild fish to his farm, where he has the cost of treating or depopulating.

I think we need to fully understand the decreases that are occurring at the control sites before we think about claiming or implying causation by aquaculture.

Competing interests declared: No, I am not involved in salmon farming, but I do consult on water chemistry, treatment issues in shrimp aquaculture and fish hatcheries -- no salmon. I am also involved in aquaculture diseases as chair of the Aquaculture Disease Committee in California and sit on several boards and committees involved in aquaculture. This whole area of aquaculture impacts has more than it's share of "advocacy science" and fund raising opportunities.

 

[Stephen Kowalski]

I think describing impacts to wild stocks as mere "virtue signaling" is an insult to those people and communities whom depend on wild salmon and have not had the voice to oppose the lies and stalling from our regulators that protect and promote the open net-pen industry in it's current methodology.

It is also an attempt to discredit those valid objections and criticisms rather than address them - something our regulators have been reluctant to do so - despite the ever-present yet credulous PR claims that the industry is "working hard at addressing concerns".

All one has to do is go back a few pages on this forum to see how the industry in NFLD tried to hide the die-off as well as the ISAv outbreak to see how incredulous that claim is.

Yep - released FF diseases are the gifts that keep on giving - you are right about that fact, Stephen - and PRv is here to stay in some form - to the detriment of the health of the wild stocks - as are other FF diseases.

This is where the discussion into virulence and disease transmission has application.

I am merely stating an opinion that I don't think shutting down salmon farms will have an appreciable impact on the runs. It might feel like it is the right thing, but it won't lead to the result we expect (virtue signalling). Not attempting to discredit anyone here in the least - I think the name-calling is all in one direction.

Not sure you are correct on the ISAv outbreak as many of your previous posts talk about a warm water occurrence - and on the PRv, I think it is accepted science that it existed before salmon farms and is not harmful (post 607 - Alaskan Government). I appreciate the efforts to educate us.

 

[agentaqua]

yep - the familiar and oft-used Correlation ≠ causation argument used by open net-cage pundits when they wish to delay action & sow doubt.

And the reduction in deaths is a correlation with seat belt use - but they instituted mandatory seatbelt use anyways BECAUSE IT MADE SENSE!

And they used the precautionary approach - which is what federal regulators are supposed to use:
https://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/reports-rapports/regs/sff-cpd/precautionary-precaution-back-fiche-eng.htm

And this has nothing to do with ones fluffy "feelings" - or even the "feelings" from the FFs that they are unnecessarily under attack, neither.

I don't consider lying, gate-keeping, and stalling - nor the abrogation of fiduciary duty - as appropriate, professional, nor responsible - nor a "virtue" neither...

 

[cuttlefish]

Here’s an interesting approach being tried in Norway; https://www.fishfarmingexpert.com/article/norway-ready-to-switch-on-salmon-farming-red-light/.
Might be worth trying here too.

 

[Rico]

https://biv.com/article/2017/09/seafood-watch-upgrades-bc-farmed-salmon-good

Going from red light to yellow light seems like improvements

 

[cuttlefish]

The impacts of sea lice in the Broughton should be measureable Sino, just find salmonid enumerations from streams nearby salmon farms and compare that to streams away from farms.

Hi Dave, have you a link to such a database you could share?

 

[Stephen Kowalski]

That was done Dave - many times and places world-wide - and the FF pundits and the industry they represent and protect and DFO ignore much of the available science - and it therefore turns into an echo box where nobody listens. And who's industry does that benefit (HINT: not the people asking the questions):

https://livingoceans.org/sites/default/files/salmonFarming_sealice_on_juvenile_salmon_2008.pdf
https://meetings.pices.int/Publications/Presentations/PICES_17/5_s5_Mackas.pdf

Fish farms DO appear to be the main source of larval sea lice (L. salmonis) during the spring out-migration of wild migration of wild smolts

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-22458-8

A Global Assessment of Salmon Aquaculture Impacts on Wild Salmonids
https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.0060033

Adult Returns of Wild Salmonids in Control (Black) and Exposed (Blue) Stocks, with Aquaculture Production (Red)

Well, my new friend called me out for putting up links from pro-FF publication (told me to put them in a burning dumpster).

First link above - a group dedicated to the removal of FF's. (not really balanced)

The second link comes up with an opinion - nothing more than that.

Finally, the third link states:
"Our analyses indicated a significant positive association between the sea lice abundance on farms and the likelihood that wild fish would be infested. However, increased abundance of lice on farms was not significantly associated with the levels of infestation observed on the wild salmon."

I think that was pretty much the Cohen report as well. Won't say anymore other than we need to keep reading and stay informed. Not sure all the links are being read as they don't always support one another.

I will keep reading the links posted but it is getting hard to read them all. So many.....

 

[Dave]

Hi Dave, have you a link to such a database you could share?

No, but there must be records of stream enumerations somewhere in DFO's vault. I know until about the 80's counts were done by Fishery Officers then passed on to the Stock Assessment branch.
I would be very surprised if there was no data from at least some salmon bearing streams in the Broughton, or other areas considered to be affected.
I also suspect others have looked at this and found no correlation, mainly due to the historic cyclic trends of pinks and chums.

 

[agentaqua]

Well, my new friend called me out for putting up links from pro-FF publication (told me to put them in a burning dumpster).

First link above - a group dedicated to the removal of FF's. (not really balanced)

The second link comes up with an opinion - nothing more than that.

Finally, the third link states:
"Our analyses indicated a significant positive association between the sea lice abundance on farms and the likelihood that wild fish would be infested. However, increased abundance of lice on farms was not significantly associated with the levels of infestation observed on the wild salmon."

I think that was pretty much the Cohen report as well. Won't say anymore other than we need to keep reading and stay informed. Not sure all the links are being read as they don't always support one another.

I will keep reading the links posted but it is getting hard to read them all. So many.....

Stephen -really - the 1st link:
https://livingoceans.org/sites/default/files/salmonFarming_sealice_on_juvenile_salmon_2008.pdf
1st off wasn't from a group "dedicated to the removal of FF's" - the map was - they simply collated numerous studies in BC at the time - many peer-reviewed - and those references are at the bottom of the map. You can look those studies up. I'm assuming that's why they put those references there in the 1st place.

I know that FF pundits would prefer to see something that showed no difference in FF impacts wrt lice loading so they could take advantage of the status quo and protection from the regulators by always attempting to dismiss any science that says there's a problem, Houston! - but it is tiring responding to the ever present misleading and wrong comments.

Generating data to make management decisions is responsible and necessary. Something "balanced" doesn't mean it should show FF impacts as non-existent - but should be dependable - which these studies are. It's not a seawest news submission.

Same goes for comments re 2nd study - if you have other data - lets see it - because w/o supporting data - that's what you're comments are - simply an opinion - nothing more than that - as opposed to these studies.

And there's literally dozens more sea lice studies world-wide that support the reality that open net-cage FFs elevate background levels of sea lice that wild salmon and trout are exposed to. Been an accepted fact for well over 20 years now in places that try to regulate the industry. It's not a new or unexpected or unaccepted issue.

And those numerous peer-reviewed articles and the discussion on the implications of sea lice loading on outmigrating juvenile salmon has been posted and debated numerous times already on this forum. A brief search returned these examples:
https://www.sportfishingbc.com/foru...as-wild-fish-pay-the-price.77021/#post-955746
https://www.sportfishingbc.com/foru...ice-found-in-record-levels.75342/#post-933455
https://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/index.php?threads/wild-salmon-and-fish-farms.75327/#post-933313
https://www.sportfishingbc.com/forum/index.php?threads/fish-farms.68678/page-22#post-874673
https://www.sportfishingbc.com/foru...s-wild-salmon-stocks.67968/page-3#post-857851
https://www.sportfishingbc.com/foru...lice-and-fish-farms.64546/page-21#post-856043
https://www.sportfishingbc.com/foru...lice-and-fish-farms.64546/page-17#post-849634
https://www.sportfishingbc.com/foru...g-criteria-politics.37507/page-57#post-454092

 

[Last Chance]

Let's keep this forum free of personal attacks. These topics generate a lot of heat for the moderators of SFBC.

If you don't like something you see, then walk away.

We recently opened this topic up again under the understanding that people would play nice.

 

[patbay]

1) Well, my new friend called me out for putting up links from pro-FF publication (told me to put them in a burning dumpster).



2) I will keep reading the links posted but it is getting hard to read them all. So many.....

1) putting words in my mouth for me? I told you anything from Seawest is garbage and belongs in the dumpster. If you have something credible, then by all means post it and I'll read it.

2) The reason why there is so many articles is because the research and science has been done many, many times over throughout the world with the same result.

 

[Rico]

From seawest news. A small article explaining who dawson is for those wondering. I never heard who is so......

Tweet
“I am humbled and honoured to be awarded the 2019 Jack Webster Foundation’s Bruce Hutchison Lifetime Achievement Award,” said Fabian Dawson.

By Samantha McLeod

SeaWestNews is proud to announce that our founding editor, Fabian Dawson, has been named the recipient of the Bruce Hutchison Lifetime Achievement Award at the 2019 Jack Webster Awards. Among the highest of journalism accolades in Canada, this prestigious award recognises the careers of senior reporters and editors who have received distinction in their communities for work of long-lasting significance, clarity, fairness and innovation.

The Jack Webster Foundation, which adjudicates and bestows the awards has said of this year’s honouree, “Journalist Fabian Dawson’s career has spanned more than four decades in British Columbia and Asia and has had a major impact both in Canada and abroad.”

Born and raised in Malaysia, Dawson immigrated to Canada in 1988. Settling in Vancouver, he became deputy editor-in-chief of The Province newspaper and was also editor of Vancouverdesi.com, then Canada’s largest South Asian news portal. Over the past 30 years, his work as an investigative journalist has taken him all over Asia, Europe, North and Central America. He currently serves as the editorial advisor to the Vancouver-based South Asian Post, Asian Pacific Post and Filipino Post newspapers as well the Market One Media Group and several publications in Korea, Hong Kong, Malaysia, India, Singapore, Philippines and England.

While this may arguably be the biggest honour of Dawson’s illustrious career, it is far from the first time he has been recognized for excellence. In 2004, The Canadian National Newspaper Awards Board of Governors named Dawson as the recipient of 2004 Unsung Hero of Canadian Journalism. The NNA awards are the highest honours in Canadian newspaper journalism. He is also a recipient of the Queen’s Jubilee Medal, cited as among the top 100 influential South Asians in Vancouver by the Vancouver Sun and was honoured by the Vancouver-based Darpan Magazine and the Chetna Association of Canada for his work within the South Asian media. In addition, he has been recognised for his contributions by the Metro Vancouver Crime Stoppers Society, the Vancouver Fashion Week and the Sikh religious authority in Punjab, India. In 2006, an investigative team led by Dawson won the Daniel Pearl Award for an investigative series, Abandoned Brides: Canada’s Shame, India’s Sorrow, in New York. The series also bagged the Rolls-Royce journalism award in England, as well as an award from the Society of News Design, and a Webster for best news reporting.

 

[patbay]

I don't think anyone was wondering.
He now runs an outlet where anyone can hire him and he'll spin whatever you like.
He would sure be caught in a conundrum if the Anti side decided to hire him to spin against farms, lol.

I do find it very interesting how you guys are so bent on promoting him.......hmmmmmm.
On his old website, he wrote that he would promote through articles but also from visiting popular forums to spread the good word. Once called on that, he promptly removed it but I can post it up later when I get home if desired.

His awards were also for what he 'used' to do, not for what he now does.

 

[agentaqua]

Thanks for your efforts to keep it civil, Admin. It's an important topic and I appreciate all of your work and effort in maintaining these forums.