What can WE do to help save the salmon?

[Rockfish]

now someone please answer my question, WHAT THE HELL IS THE STRATEGY FOR MOVING FORWARD??????

your folks sound like a locker room full of HS jocks engaged in one circle jerk after another. no one cares about the science of net pen fishes, only those reading this forum. just how are you intending to move forward and stop this disasterous intrusion on your enviroment, slapping each other on the back in the locker room???? what i have read above will go exactly no where once you decide to step out on the ice.

so post it up, steps forward....................

On your ninth cup of coffee there Reelfast.

 

[Charlie]

How did you guys make this happen? How did you get your government to see the value in Pacidic salmon? I am sure its a long answer, but i am very curious.

Lorne

It is actually a short answer... just think "Supreme Court"!

 

[Lipripper]

On your ninth cup of coffee there Reelfast.

 

[Sculpin]

Thanks for the bit of humour Lippy. I think everyone needs a little breather lol.

 

[lorneparker1]

It is actually a short answer... just think "Supreme Court"!

I am aware of that charlie, But how, and who, and where did the money come from. Was there one or two things that stand out as switch flippers?

 

[lorneparker1]

ms morton is a dediticated scientist doing work that no one else wants to touch with a ten foot pole. she is not, as she has already admiintted, willing or able to go to litigation on any topic. you folks need big guns, that means environmental groups active in canada. couple a group or two with the unions in alberta that are already actively engaging big oil,and you have the begginngs of a team that CAN take the ice. i understand that some of you have 'bad feeling' about several environmental groups so you need to decide whether swallowing hard or continuing the status quo is your cup of tea.

(did watch the hawks last night, unfortunate loss)

Not much of a swallower!! LOL. but im sure as fack sick of the status quo.

 

[Mighty Sylvan]

Social media? We start a facebook page titled Recreational fisherman for wild salmon. We discuss a mission statement and make that our theme. We focus on environment and our image, for example; no bleeding gill photos, we add scenery pics and organize habitat improvements. Any other ideas?

 

[Lipripper]

That sounds like an idea

 

[Foxsea]

Social media? We start a facebook page titled Recreational fisherman for wild salmon. We discuss a mission statement and make that our theme. We focus on environment and our image, for example; no bleeding gill photos, we add scenery pics and organize habitat improvements. Any other ideas?

Watch these videos - make comments. Attach these videos to your own facebook pages to raise awareness. Ask your family and friends to "like" and share them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZBbYzyuwF0&feature=relmfu
Get a video up showing diseased farmed salmon and the diseased wild salmon - make it sickening and ugly. Promote it to help it go viral. Scare and disgust the Marine Harvest customers and take their market and profits away. They only seem capable of understanding the pain of financial losses and angry shareholders.

 

[Foxsea]

Social media? We start a facebook page titled Recreational fisherman for wild salmon. We discuss a mission statement and make that our theme. We focus on environment and our image, for example; no bleeding gill photos, we add scenery pics and organize habitat improvements. Any other ideas?

Organized and well publicised boycotts of all supermarkets that sell farmed salmon - let's picket them and say why! The financial impact will be minimal but the opportunity to get the true story out could be huge.
Bumper stickers: "Atlantic salmon are sickening" ; "Norway is killing our wild salmon" (major shareholder) "Free range chickens and eggs - why not free range fish? Ban net pens"; "Eating pesticides, drugs and disease? Eating Atlantic salmon?"; "Fisherman 4 wild salmon"; "Marine Harvest: clear-cutting our oceans one farm at a time"; "Golden Toad - extinct; Carribean Monk Seal - extinct; River Dolphin - extinct; Wild Salmon?"

 

[Charlie]

Everything mentioned concerning ‘bumper stickers’, ‘Facebook’, etc is good. The more people aware the better; however, sorry that alone will NOT change anything! I believe you will find (as Alex can attest) even with three hundred thousand people writing letters, displaying bumper stickers, and posting ‘like’ on Facebook that is NOT going to get anything done. That is unless you get them to show up on Harper’s doorstep in Ottawa. You are going to have to get the government of Canada (NOT DFO) to enforce Canadian Laws… unfortunately (just like down here), IMHO you ARE going to have to go to court to make that happen!

Unless you are living under that rock with ‘Abs’ you have to know DFO upper management mandate is to support those fish farms. It is NOT to protect your wild salmon - and that has to change. It also appears to me also, that has been proven fact through the Cohen Commission testimonies!

There was once a comment for some to meet and discuss this with First Nations… I highly suggest that, as whether you like it or not – your wild salmon ARE better off being managed, and in their hands than DFO!

Dr Alexandra Morton already has an established following and is a very effective pain in DFO’s side. Already has established a relationship with First Nations - She has even been adopted by them!

Just to recap this… you have an individual who already has a following. Is well known for her stance against fish farms. Can get support anytime she chooses from just about anyone (including all those nasty U.S. charitable organizations Harper is currently fighting, as they are in his way). Is very well respected for her work. A loyal Canadian citizen. Respected and adopted by First Nations. Is passionate about saving your wild salmon! My GOD people, what more could you ask or want?

Obviously, I have read the following more than once, actually more than several times. It has only been reformatted for my benefit to make it easier for me to read, digest, and understand the points and have left it reformatted for that reason only! The reason for the multiple quotes is for comments, which I have chose to remove at this time and will only add this “ONE” at this time… IMHO this IS on the right track and this is YOUR leader!

Our basis of claim:
That DFO has seriously damaged the recreational fishery through action and negligence. That DFO has neglected adequate study, conservation and protection of the wild fishery. That DFO has supported and participated in the destruction of a valuable, viable and sustainable fishery. That DFO has repudiated their mandate to create (and sustain) the conditions necessary to support a vibrant industry.

I know the right people for you to speak about this with. It is not easy however. You have to prove loss and you have to prove it came from the salmon farms. A good start would be to sample chinook in areas important to you where there are salmon farms, like Clayoquot. Possible Discovery Islands, though so many fish pass through there I don't know how possible it would be to figure out. still trying to figure out the quotes here - so apologizing in advance if this post ends up in some random place.

Ok having trouble figuring out how to post - tried the quotes and clearly that didn't work. A lot of questions here.

First regarding a law suit that is going to be difficult, but a good start would be to take some samples of chinook in areas of high concern, like Clayoquot or Discovery Islands.

You will have to prove loss of salmon you would have caught from a specific salmon farm. However, it is not impossible with this ISA virus, which mutates and can be tracked.

Giving a talk on the mid-Island would be really easy for me and I think it would be productive for us to talk.

As for what to do. I think we have to see DFO as irrelevant. They are not protecting wild salmon. As a cohen participant I read what they have been saying about salmon farms in their emails to each other and I get the impression that even though some clearly do want to do the right thing, there is no mechanism in DFO to protect wild salmon from international trade laws.

I thought hard about what it would take to fix DFO and I don't think it is worth the effort. There are too many fox holes, and trenches with people in them defending territory. The only ones thinking clearly are some of the ones getting wet in the rivers. Management is way out of line, taking risks on our behalf for example importing Atlantic eggs from hatcheries that do not meet the regulations. I think we need to go to DFO for permits, etc., but do not go to them for a plan.

One of the really amazing new scientific tools is called genomic profiling. DFO has probably the most capable person in the world that uses this method to examine salmon. She reads the switches that turn on and off in cells in response to everything. Then she looks at the pattern and figures out if they are feeding well, have the flu, had sea lice, have experienced an algae bloom during their lives, is in water too warm etc. DFO tasked her to figure out why up to 90% of Fraser sockeye are dying in the river before spawning. No one could figure it out because the fish were dying of everything. When Miller used genomic profiling she could see they had a virus that was weakening their immune system and other things. When she looked for a match she found Salmon Leukemia - raging in salmon feedlots since 1992. At that point DFO began preventing her from talking.
In any case, using genomic profiling, we could test wild salmon from their spawning grounds out to sea at intervals and find out EXACTLY where things go badly for each run. It is much much more powerful than looking for disease because it picks up the signals in the fish long before they show symptoms.

Using this following the fish as they leave and return we could quickly figure out precisely what needs to change, instead of flailing around in the dark.

I think we need to pull together people already working to protect wild salmon coastwise together into the Department of Wild Salmon. Meet every year, have an open online discussion so that everyone could track what is going wrong and what is going right.

I get so many people contacting me now with every kind of report; salmon are small, big, full of worms, yellow etc.... if we pulled together we could begin to see the patterns. What places are making fish and what areas are killing them. That would allow us figure to out what to do for them. My feeling is that the fish are perfect, all that we need to do is strategically get out of their way. Too often People do the feel good thing, that means nothing to the fish.

I can see very clearly how this would work, just like I really see the pattern between wild salmon declines and salmon feedlots. The feedlots just have to go - they break the natural laws that balance pathogens and health. As long as they use nets that allow viruses move in, multiply, mutate and pour back out, wild salmon are faced with an incredible handicap they just aren't designed to survive.

The only people who can get the farm salmon away from the wild salmon is the province of BC. I don't think most MLAs even know they are the landlords of this industry.

While DFO regulates number of fish, which drugs etc, its the province that gives them their licences of occupation. We learned at Cohen that although small streams were slightly protected with a buffer zone, the major migration routes were never even considered. This has to change.

In addition to speaking with you, it would be great to be able to work with some of you to get samples. I am looking for chinook in particular from Clayoquot Sound, Nootka Sound, Knight or Kingcome Inlets and Discovery Islands.

Sampling is finicky business and it costs me about $100/fish to process, so I am looking for high quality more that quantity. But you guys do the hard part - catching them!

There are several symptoms that would be great to be sampling, as well as just getting information and pictures on such as: yellow skin colour, red speckling on the bellies, bugged out eyes, brilliant red at the base of fins, and pale gills.

Also EXTREMELY important would be any Atlantic salmon you guys catch. Please contact me if you think you want to do this. You would need to measure, weigh, photograph the fish inside and out, take a DNA sample, put the gills and heart on ice and get to me, or Anissa Reed (Backbone of the coast T-shirt designer who lives in Qualicum Beach) within a few days. We also accept whole wild salmon any time!

In the case of an Atlantic I could do a lot with them if they were fresh, on ice, whole, no gutting. Long and lat. for all samples would be great, but otherwise just general location.

If you are photographing fish with any of the symptoms mentioned above it is huge if you can take a scrap of paper and write the date, place and if you want your name and contact (or send seperately)

My email is gorbuscha@gmail.com (latin name for pink salmon) Also email me if you want to be on my mailing list where I update people on findings etc. I have posted a briefing on my blog about two viruses I think are seriously impacting south coast BC salmon. alexandramorton.typepad.com

If we want wild salmon it is up to us - without a doubt!

 

[Charlie]

I guess I do have to add another comment!

FYI… I didn’t find anywhere where Alex said she wouldn’t take this to court; however, keep in mind the Supreme Court only interprets and enforces law, they do not make law. If you aren’t watching what is going on in your Parliament, I would advise to do anything sooner than later or at least STOP Harper from changing ALL your laws. He is currently laboring very hard to do that in Parliament, as we speak. It is being done through “HIS APPOINTED” cronies. Might I also add, I was actually amazed to learn Harper could appoint whomever he chooses to become a member of your Parliament – then use them to lobby to change your laws? That individual really is ‘out of control’ and DANGEROUS!

 

[reelfast]

let me provide another thought avenue (hey i only do 2 espressos/day )

1. is it true that SLICE is still being used on all farmed salmon?
2. if the answer is YES, then you have a public health issue on your hands. SLICE is a pesticide that is NOT approved if the intent of the treated product is human consumption (USFDA).

if they have move beyond SLICE, forget it.

if your answer comes back as YES, you do have a great beginning block in a campaign that extends far beyond slappin' each other on the back, publishing hard core science that no one cares about, sitting in butt numbing meetings, slappin' stickers on your bumpers or all of the other stuff that goes no where but makes you feel good.

let me repeat the obvious, you are up against billion dollar industries with direct ties to politicians who keep them in business. this is not pattie cakes, you either need to get serious about your attack or just delete this entire thread and live with the consequences. BIG stick environmental groups (yeah i heard you don't like'um), labor in Alberta are worth courting in a serious agressive way. all it takes is one of you canadian residents to pick up your telephone and start calling these groups asking significant fact based questions and letting them know BIG dollars could be coming their way through a coalition of recreational anglers.

or just stay in the locker room and continue the feel good circle jerk..........................

 

[reelfast]

keep in mind the Supreme Court does not make laws

WHAT?????????????????????? SCOTUS does not make laws??? has anyone told them this????

Ms Morton in an early post, no i am not going to roll back that many pages, expressed concern regarding just how expensive litigation would be. i interpreted that as she is in no position, financially, to take this on. but, why not ask her directly at the upcoming meeting posted on another thread.

 

[Charlie]

let me be quick to correct a misconception. the columbia r. has '...not come back...'. it's called 2,000,000 smolts annually stocked. there is exactly a single river in Oregon that has come back, that would be the willamette. by that i mean, all stocking stopped, fish self sustaining. the myth of hatcheries is legion all over the PNW but the science is clear, very clear, hatchery fish prohibit the return of wild stocks.

You missed a couple of "00"s there, if referring to Chinook only? There was over 200,000,000 smolts released last year.

Yep, "the science is clear, very clear, hatchery fish prohibit the return of wild stocks." That is exactly why the hatcheries have changed where and when they release hatchery smolts. However, there is more than "exactly a single river in Oregon" making a come back? There three here in Puget Sound alone. Don't confuse ESA enhancement programs, with the 'put and take' fishery? Two separate programs. and most enhancement programs established have stopped the declines of "wild" populations and there are several increasing populations; therefore, I would have to agree and say, they are working. Either that or we just wasted over a BILLION dollars?

You can pull them all up, if you want. I will just list a few:
Puget Sound has 22 populations of Chinook through 2008. The overall trend rating was No trend; however, three populations show an increase (Nooksake, Cedar, and White Rivers), only one has showed a decrease (South Fork/Mainstem Stillaquamish River)

HOOD CANAL SUMMER CHUM: 1998-2007 ESA LISTING STATUS: Threatened 1999
Hood Canal Increasing
Strait of Juan de Fuca Increasing

LOWER COLUMBIA RIVER CHINOOK: 1999-2008 ESA LISTING STATUS: Threatened 1999
ESU ABUNDANCE TREND: NO TREND
Sandy River Increasing

The continually declines in the Snake and Upper Columbia have stopped and at least stable now:
Snake River Spring Summer Chinook: 1999-2008 ESA Listing Status: Threatened 1992
Updated spawning abundance estimates were available for 12 of 31 populations, in most cases through 2008. All populations with available data showed “no trend‟, although there was considerable variability over the 10 year period. Typically spawning abundance of populations in this ESU are highly correlated, therefore the ESU has “no trend‟.

UPPER COLUMBIA SPRING CHINOOK 1999-2008 ESA LISTING STATUS: Endangered 1999
Entiat River No trend
Methow River No trend
Wenatchee River No trend
http://www.nwfsc.noaa.gov/trt/pubs_esu_trend.cfm

 

[Gunsmith]

WHAT?????????????????????? SCOTUS does not make laws??? has anyone told them this????

Ms Morton in an early post, no i am not going to roll back that many pages, expressed concern regarding just how expensive litigation would be. i interpreted that as she is in no position, financially, to take this on. but, why not ask her directly at the upcoming meeting posted on another thread.

We sure could help that fund by donations, even by Evil Oilsands Money.
I think he was referring to The Supreme Court Of Canada.

 

[Islandgirl]

Unless you are living under that rock with ‘Abs’ you have to know DFO upper management mandate is to support those fish farms. It is NOT to protect your wild salmon - and that has to change. It also appears to me also, that has been proven fact through the Cohen Commission testimonies!

Bingo!
Remember this video.........and nothing has changed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Su7a1KHLtA

 

[Foxsea]

WHAT?????????????????????? SCOTUS does not make laws??? has anyone told them this????

Okay - sarcasm - haha (like abs so we get it!) But SCOTUS ??? - no jurisdiction in Canada. Not yet.

 

[Foxsea]

- all it takes is one of you canadian residents to pick up your telephone and start calling these groups asking significant fact based questions and letting them know BIG dollars could be coming their way through a coalition of recreational anglers.

or just stay in the locker room and continue the feel good circle jerk..........................

Thanks for your thoughtfulness but how did you intend THIS to be interpreted??? Again, with your "clever" idiom. Caffeine or not, we heard you the first time out. Are you stepping up for abs, --- Real Fast?

We have heard these ideas from many others, prior to your post. How about some fresh ideas without dismissing all others? Up here we call it "brainstorming."

 

[Gunsmith]

Nothing but culls representing our precious resources.

Bingo!
Remember this video.........and nothing has changed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Su7a1KHLtA