The Pacific Ocean is so acidic that it's dissolving Dungeness crabs' shells

[fishbadger]

Stupid headline.
But it is real.
Deflecting doesn't make it not real.

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[dradons]

Stupid headline.
But it is real.
Deflecting doesn't make it not real.

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The article is from CNN, that is their motto. People have posted the underlying research. It is unfortunate that many choose to attack the reporting instead of the substance of the research.

 

[ChinookExerciser]

substance of the research.

and that is???

 

[Fishmyster]

The article is from CNN, that is their motto. People have posted the underlying research. It is unfortunate that many choose to attack the reporting instead of the substance of the research.

Interesting you say that.

Attached is a link to the home video of a citizen scientist's research material. Lets see if others can restrain from attacking the reporter and discuss the substance of the material? Have a laugh on me.

 

[Fishmyster]

Where did everyone go here? I mention a fact proving that atmospheric co2 can not be acidifying the oceans. A few people respond by attempting to discredit me but do not respond to the substance of my research. I then provided the link which validates my comments and now there is a disappearing act. Surely with all of their knowledge put together they could equal at least high school chemistry level and explain to me how my findings could be incorrect??

 

[browningmirage]

Where did everyone go here? I mention a fact proving that atmospheric co2 can not be acidifying the oceans. A few people respond by attempting to discredit me but do not respond to the substance of my research. I then provided the link which validates my comments and now there is a disappearing act. Surely with all of their knowledge put together they could equal at least high school chemistry level and explain to me how my findings could be incorrect??

I dont think that's fact...its known fact that CO2 dissolves in water, making it more acidic. Long term trends of increasing pH prove nothing unless you have concentrations of the other molecules contributing to acid. Can you present us the data on all of the constituents, or do we only have pH of rainwater?

 

[Fishmyster]

I dont think that's fact...its known fact that CO2 dissolves in water, making it more acidic. Long term trends of increasing pH prove nothing unless you have concentrations of the other molecules contributing to acid. Can you present us the data on all of the constituents, or do we only have pH of rainwater?

Attached is a rain chemistry report which does list some of the other elements contributing to precipitation pH. Not sure if you looked at the video I posted? The Saturna island reports does also list other elements and concentrations which would effect pH.

I by no way dispute the fact of co2 absorbing into water causes a drop in pH. I am disputing the idea that it is the atmospheric co2 is acidifying the oceans while not effecting the precipitation in the same way. I am sure you know that precipitation has no alkalinity. If anything the pH drop caused from absorbed atmospheric co2 or any other molecule suspended in the air should be far greater in precipitation than the high alkaline oceans would it not? How is it possible for the pH trend to be opposite between the two?

 

[GLG]

If anyone is interested in the chemistry of how ocean acidification works, this video explains it.

 

[GLG]

Attached is a rain chemistry report which does list some of the other elements contributing to precipitation pH. Not sure if you looked at the video I posted? The Saturna island reports does also list other elements and concentrations which would effect pH.

I by no way dispute the fact of co2 absorbing into water causes a drop in pH. How is it possible for the pH trend to be opposite between the two?

The paper you just posted explains why the two trends are going in different directions. It's the SO2 and the NOx.
We know there is a problem with putting SO2 and NOx into the atmosphere that's why we have changed regulations, over the years, to get it out of our byproducts of combustion. Fossil fuel power plants need to scrub it out. Lower the sulfur in diesel fuel to the ultra low sulfur content specification. Reduce global marine fuel sulfur content from 5% to 1%, a new regulation that kicked in as of Jan 2020. All these actions reduce the content of acid forming components that create acid rain.

 

[Fishmyster]

The paper you just posted explains why the two trends are going in different directions. It's the SO2 and the NOx.
We know there is a problem with putting SO2 and NOx into the atmosphere that's why we have changed regulations, over the years, to get it out of our byproducts of combustion. Fossil fuel power plants need to scrub it out. Lower the sulfur in diesel fuel to the ultra low sulfur content specification. Reduce global marine fuel sulfur content from 5% to 1%, a new regulation that kicked in as of Jan 2020. All these actions reduce the content of acid forming components that create acid rain.[/

I already know what caused the extreme acid rain in the past. It is obvious that the decrease in sulphate and nitrogen is why the rain is not as acidic as back in the 1990’s. I did not see any explanation as to how the week carbonic acid has the ability to acidify the oceans but not the less alkaline rain and fresh waters? Isn’t pH 5.6 supposed to be considered “clean” rain. If Co2 from the air is creating enough effect to acidify the oceans then we would see it effecting the precipitation which has zero acid neutralizing capability which we are not.

 

[browningmirage]

I already know what caused the extreme acid rain in the past. It is obvious that the decrease in sulphate and nitrogen is why the rain is not as acidic as back in the 1990’s. I did not see any explanation as to how the week carbonic acid has the ability to acidify the oceans but not the less alkaline rain and fresh waters? Isn’t pH 5.6 supposed to be considered “clean” rain. If Co2 from the air is creating enough effect to acidify the oceans then we would see it effecting the precipitation which has zero acid neutralizing capability which we are not.

I think you are grasping a bit. Rain interacting with CO2 in the atmosphere, creating a weakly acidic rain is a different effect than C02 from the atmosphere interacting with slightly basic ocean water and driving the pH down.

From a biological perspective, animals are adapted to a set of conditions. Anything moving it beyond the realm of natural variability will have an impact on those animals.

The original paper could have used a bigger sample size, and there were other issues to consider. But that doesnt mean the effects weren't real. I think it needs more work, but it fits with known cause/effect, so it shouldn't be dismissed outright.

 

[Fishmyster]

I think you are grasping a bit. Rain interacting with CO2 in the atmosphere, creating a weakly acidic rain is a different effect than C02 from the atmosphere interacting with slightly basic ocean water and driving the pH down.

From a biological perspective, animals are adapted to a set of conditions. Anything moving it beyond the realm of natural variability will have an impact on those animals.

The original paper could have used a bigger sample size, and there were other issues to consider. But that doesnt mean the effects weren't real. I think it needs more work, but it fits with known cause/effect, so it shouldn't be dismissed outright.

I am curious as to how the co2 reacts differently to precipitation than sea water? Can you please explain a little better?

Here is one of the many links to chemistry demonstration with co2 reacting with water. Just like precipitation would be the demonstration uses pure water.

Just like many other demonstrations the co2 has drastic effects on pure or distilled water because of the lack of alkalinity. So I am curious how it is figure that co2 would effect precipitation differently than sea water. If anything it should be far more sensitive and show greater effects.

Here is another link of many which state the natural pH of rain is 5.6pH
http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...cidrain.html&usg=AOvVaw34xe8vY529Bo9doz9w70EY
So I have been testing rain pH for some time now and it is consistently hanging around 5.6pH the last year.

co2 has been rising steadily for some years now. Most information indicates it has risen from 320ppm in 1960 to over 400ppm in 2015 which is substantial.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=co2+...=2ahUKEwjktcOJgMbnAhVUu54KHabyBB0QsAR6BAgKEAE
How is it possible for the co2, which is in no doubt risen, not be lowering the rain pH below 5.6? To claim that the recent decrease in ocean pH is caused by atmospheric co2 while the precipitation is not showing any sign would be grasping a lot!

I have no doubt that there are issues with organisms in the ocean having difficulty absorbing calcium. Hell just back in 2013-14 all species of starfish dissolved away coast wide. Some say virus I believe chemistry issue. I just don't believe it is caused from atmospheric co2. When we compare the co2 effects with other water sources it just doesn't line up.

I am trying to see the truth from unbiased facts. What really causes me to question the original posted report is the dramatized misleading title. This paragraph also is quite flakey as far as I'm concerned. When people at NOAA say this!!
"As for the acidifying ocean, NOAA proposes two methods of attack: Reducing our overall carbon footprint to reduce the carbon dioxide absorbed by the sea, or teach wildlife and the people who rely on it to adapt to how the sea will change."
"Teach wildlife to adapt" I am curios as to how they are going to teach starfish or say shellfish to adapt?? LOL!!

 

[Fishmyster]

I forgot to mention thank you for the respectful interaction. Lets keep this discussion going. I know there is truth out there somewhere but for me it will take UNBIASED FACTS to convince me co2 is ruining the world and not hype from environmental activism.

 

[browningmirage]

Ok, this brings up my ochem days...I wasnt very good so feel free to critique

Long story short, dissociation of carbonic acid depends on the pressure (relative composition of co2) in the atmosphere. A doubling (to 800ppm) results in a drop in pH of 0.3. At present CO2, carbonic acid (and other more potent acids in the atmosphere) sets the pH at 5.6.

So we aren't seeing rainwater change because CO2 hasnt changed enough yet. This is not due to issues with the potency of CO2 as a greenhouse gas, but because of its weakness as an acid when dissolved in water.

 

[chris73]

I forgot to mention thank you for the respectful interaction. Lets keep this discussion going. I know there is truth out there somewhere but for me it will take UNBIASED FACTS to convince me co2 is ruining the world and not hype from environmental activism.

If you want to register the factual change of pure rainwater pH you must buy a decent pH meter and do away with your rough colorimeter. It's a simple chemical equilibrium calculation that will show you that the pH of rainwater has indeed dropped because of the recent increase in CO2 in the atmosphere. But the pH change will be smaller than the 0.5 or 1 pH increments that you can read with your colorimeter.
Also, it is not the slight decrease in rainwater pH that is decreasing the pH of the ocean. Only in very isolated coastal bays with large freshwater influx (Fraser mouth, SOG) freshwater pH will have a measurable impact on ocean pH. 25% of atmospheric CO2 is directly absorbed by the ocean. Higher atmospheric CO2 plus less CO2 uptake on land (less plants/forests) have changed the CO2 flux (read up on this concept) and lead to increased CO2 absorption in the ocean. Oceans used to give up CO2 into atmosphere before human impact; now through fossile burning plus deforestation it's reversed and the ocean takes in CO2 - thus the ocean pH drops. So much for getting you on the right track. Hope this helps in your search.

 

[Rockfish]

You guys should listen to Chris. As I recall, water quality, water chemistry and water related systems engineering is what he does for a living.

 

[Fishmyster]

If you want to register the factual change of pure rainwater pH you must buy a decent pH meter and do away with your rough colorimeter. It's a simple chemical equilibrium calculation that will show you that the pH of rainwater has indeed dropped because of the recent increase in CO2 in the atmosphere. But the pH change will be smaller than the 0.5 or 1 pH increments that you can read with your colorimeter.
Also, it is not the slight decrease in rainwater pH that is decreasing the pH of the ocean. Only in very isolated coastal bays with large freshwater influx (Fraser mouth, SOG) freshwater pH will have a measurable impact on ocean pH. 25% of atmospheric CO2 is directly absorbed by the ocean. Higher atmospheric CO2 plus less CO2 uptake on land (less plants/forests) have changed the CO2 flux (read up on this concept) and lead to increased CO2 absorption in the ocean. Oceans used to give up CO2 into atmosphere before human impact; now through fossile burning plus deforestation it's reversed and the ocean takes in CO2 - thus the ocean pH drops. So much for getting you on the right track. Hope this helps in your search.

I have no problem seeing the color change from pH 5 which is orange-pH 5.5 which is amber-pH6 which is yellow etc... My color recognition is fine. The Saturna island reports indicate the rain pH was averaging in the mid 4's pH and going as low as 3.4pH at times in the mid 1990's. That is 10-100 times more acidic back then then the tester shows now. Chris, can you please reveal your sources that indicate the rain pH has "indeed dropped from co2"?

So if atmospheric co2 is acidifying the oceans then what is happening here?

 

[SpringVelocity]

If you want to register the factual change of pure rainwater pH you must buy a decent pH meter and do away with your rough colorimeter. It's a simple chemical equilibrium calculation that will show you that the pH of rainwater has indeed dropped because of the recent increase in CO2 in the atmosphere. But the pH change will be smaller than the 0.5 or 1 pH increments that you can read with your colorimeter.
Also, it is not the slight decrease in rainwater pH that is decreasing the pH of the ocean. Only in very isolated coastal bays with large freshwater influx (Fraser mouth, SOG) freshwater pH will have a measurable impact on ocean pH. 25% of atmospheric CO2 is directly absorbed by the ocean. Higher atmospheric CO2 plus less CO2 uptake on land (less plants/forests) have changed the CO2 flux (read up on this concept) and lead to increased CO2 absorption in the ocean. Oceans used to give up CO2 into atmosphere before human impact; now through fossile burning plus deforestation it's reversed and the ocean takes in CO2 - thus the ocean pH drops. So much for getting you on the right track. Hope this helps in your search.

Yes I second that. Chris73 Knows a lot about water...

 

[chris73]

Ken, my sources are basic chemistry. As rain passes through an atmosphere where the CO2 concentration has risen from less than 300 ppm 200 years ago to over 400 ppm today the chemical equilibrium dictates that the rain water pH drops. It has to, this is a scientific law. But we are talking a few hundreds of 1 pH. Don't tell me you can see the difference between 5.60 and 5.52 on your colorimeter, that's bs. What you are seeing in the studies your are looking at are other factors that are having a much greater and profound impact on rainwater pH. You mentioned yourself human induced acid rain effects that where prevalent in past decades anywhere near industrial air pollution. In our western world some of these impacts have been mitigated by better emission control technology. I am sure if you measured the rainwater pH near a chinese or russian factory you could see pH of 5 or less still today.

 

[Fishmyster]

Ken, my sources are basic chemistry. As rain passes through an atmosphere where the CO2 concentration has risen from less than 300 ppm 200 years ago to over 400 ppm today the chemical equilibrium dictates that the rain water pH drops. It has to, this is a scientific law. But we are talking a few hundreds of 1 pH. Don't tell me you can see the difference between 5.60 and 5.52 on your colorimeter, that's bs. What you are seeing in the studies your are looking at are other factors that are having a much greater and profound impact on rainwater pH. You mentioned yourself human induced acid rain effects that where prevalent in past decades anywhere near industrial air pollution. In our western world some of these impacts have been mitigated by better emission control technology. I am sure if you measured the rainwater pH near a chinese or russian factory you could see pH of 5 or less still today.

Basic chemistry says high alkaline water like ocean water 125ppm resist change to pH far greater than water with no alkalinity like precipitation does it not? With such a minuscule change showing in the precipitation then there would be no noticeable change to the oceans when considering volume of oceans and high alkalinity compared to vapour or rain with no alkalinity.

I have never said acid rain was all caused from factories in the past. I was claiming it was mainly from large volcanoes and that is why the pH has risen back to around 5.6 now. Which is considered natural before pollution. Large eruptions dwarf the pollution from civilization. That is why the pH is so high now because we know emission reductions have now gone to 0. The factories spin was GLG.

You never did comment on what you thought was going on in the last graph I posted. It was the pH readings from the LaPush?