Recommendation For Marine Electrician/Lithium Battery Expert in Vancouver

Max123 said:
@Alex_c - I'm not confident enough in my knowledge of these systems and may be getting in over my head, but when I was looking at the ACR - I think that your diagram reflects lead acid for both the house and starting battery. With a lead-acid starting batteries and a lithium house I think the ACR is replaced with a DC>DC charge controller (which can also have MPPT control for solar input as well if you buy the right one). Others may correct me, and I appreciate the lesson. My experience is limited to a solar setup on a cabin, and in that case there was no DC alternator power source and only one kind of battery.

Also, curious if x2 starting batteries are actually required (research leads me to believe it is not). Go down to a single group 24 or 27 AGM starting battery - tons of capacity to fire up x2 150 Yamahas - especially since the batteries are now starting only with no other loads to wear them down (i'd still carry a jump pack as my backup). Fewer components, fewer things to fail, easier to diagnose when it does fail. The counter argument is to have a 2nd starting battery for redundant backup - and its a totally valid argument - 'dealers choice' as they say.
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I’m not an authority on these issues either. Just a guy with an interest in 12V systems and a bit of experience building them. You’re right that you need a DC/DC converter instead of ACR to limit charging current and isolate the house battery. The lithium voltage also doesn’t drop much below 12.9 when it is discharged , and the ACR cut-off is 12.75V, so the lithium would eventually discharge into the starting battery.
 
Max123 said:
@Alex_c - I'm not confident enough in my knowledge of these systems and may be getting in over my head, but when I was looking at the ACR - I think that your diagram reflects lead acid for both the house and starting battery. With a lead-acid starting batteries and a lithium house I think the ACR is replaced with a DC>DC charge controller (which can also have MPPT control for solar input as well if you buy the right one). Others may correct me, and I appreciate the lesson. My experience is limited to a solar setup on a cabin, and in that case there was no DC alternator power source and only one kind of battery.

Also, curious if x2 starting batteries are actually required (research leads me to believe it is not). Go down to a single group 24 or 27 AGM starting battery - tons of capacity to fire up x2 150 Yamahas - especially since the batteries are now starting only with no other loads to wear them down (i'd still carry a jump pack as my backup). Fewer components, fewer things to fail, easier to diagnose when it does fail. The counter argument is to have a 2nd starting battery for redundant backup - and its a totally valid argument - 'dealers choice' as they say.
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I run the non-waterproof renogy charge controller in my truck camper with my lifep04 battery. Charges from the alternator and solar. Here is the 50amp https://amzn.to/3BWyGyk #ad

based on the limited poor reviews on Amazon.com I would not buy the waterproof one from renogy https://amzn.to/48i3SnH

Victron is my preference for all boat charging the problem is I don’t think you can buy a combined alternator dc-dc and mppt controller. https://amzn.to/3YvzgvL Victron has a lot of options for both but I chose what look like 50amp ones. @zurk is the go too as far as knowledge and doesn’t run the DC-DC chargers.
 
i dont run DC to DC in mine because there would be no point. i do have a shore charger (victron blue smart ip65 rated) and a victron mppt for the solar input.
my layout for the powerboat is victron blue -> victron mppt -> Alternator with Sterling APD -> Renogy 200Ah -> Renogy 200Ah. simplest system you can get. no unnecessary parts.

the kayak is electric jet powered - runs a bixpy water jet - uses dakota lithiums connected to the bixpy DC BMS. no charger on the kayak. just output.
its dakota lithium -> bixpy DC controller/BMS -> bixpy jet. jet is wrist controlled with a wireless wrist controller to interface with the DC BMS.

full lithium systems are incredibly simple compared to mixed chemistry or lead acid. just add a protection device like the APD for any mechanical generators (alternators), size the fuses to the full rated output of the lithiums and select lithium profiles in all other connected chargers. nothing else needed. dont even need monitoring since all the batteries now report full amps / volts / cell state / modes digitally via bluetooth.
 
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@zurk - the APD option is super interesting. I didn't know this existed. My understanding was basically that you shouldn't use a lithium battery because once it is fully charged the internal battery management system (BMS) kills power coming in from the alternator (which is functionally the same as turning your battery switch to off with the engine is on) and causes a voltage spike on the engine side. I'm sure this is an incomplete description (potentially totally wrong?)

How reliable is the APD? My understanding is that the benefit of a lead-acid battery is that instead of relying on circuitry as a failsafe you are using battery chemistry (which just works). If you have a sudden voltage spike the failsafe is the battery electrolyte: electricity turns the water in the battery into hydrogen and oxygen (electrolysis). Kind of like a fire sprinkler head in your house: the mechanism that controls release is a mercury switch not a electronic sensor. In true failsafe applications, chemistry is more reliable than circuits.
 
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so what happens is if the alternator dumps more voltage in and that overvoltage can cause the lithium battery to disconnect to protect itself. basically the BMS disconnects the battery in the event of an alternator fault. note that good alternators - those you find on the average marine outboard thats a few years old from a reputable brand like yammy or merc or tohatsu -- will NOT do this. my diesel engine alternators which are beta marine will also NOT do this. but if you have an alternator fault it can do this or if you have a bad alternator it can do this. in any event if it does happen - the lifepo4 bms will disconnect the lithium battery to protect it, the current flow will go to zero. Power = Volts x Amps. 0 Amps means infinite volts. so voltage will shoot up from 16.5V to infinity and that will be the equivalent of a mini lightning strike inside the alternator. it will pretty much fry everything in the alternator. The APD is the equivalent of a burnable resistor. it absorbs the power by burning itself out to protect the alternator. its a one time use thing. The APD is 100% reliable in that it sacrifices itself to protect your alternator -- but it only works once. think of it as an expensive last ditch fuse to protect your engine electronics from the alternator which is going bad. you can think of the APD as a fire extinguisher. you hope you dont need it, but its there if you do. the same thing can BTW happen with lead acid -- if a cable breaks, fuse blows or something which disconnects your lead acids from the alternator, your alternator will fry. the APD will protect regardless of chemistry.
 
Go and have a chat with the guys at Polar Battery in Burnaby. They have been very helpful throughout my journey with upgrading my Whaler. I stuck with lead acid because ive had great success with this platform in Solar over the past 25 years at our cabin . Maybe next Time I will make the change to lithium, maybe not. I run all Victron equipment At the cabin and boat now. Love this stuff. Polar gave me the best pricing.

Definitely get yourself a dedicated house battery system and starting batteries just for the motors
Im pretty sure those motors have dual outputs on the alternators. Victron battery monitors are an easy upgrade.
 
CiscoCat said:
Go and have a chat with the guys at Polar Battery in Burnaby. They have been very helpful throughout my journey with upgrading my Whaler. I stuck with lead acid because ive had great success with this platform in Solar over the past 25 years at our cabin . Maybe next Time I will make the change to lithium, maybe not. I run all Victron equipment At the cabin and boat now. Love this stuff. Polar gave me the best pricing.

Definitely get yourself a dedicated house battery system and starting batteries just for the motors
Im pretty sure those motors have dual outputs on the alternators. Victron battery monitors are an easy upgrade.
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The previous owner had a Victron battery monitor installed when the batteries were changed in Dec 2021. The problem with the way they set it up, is that it only reads the port start battery. Pretty useless for the most part.
 
zurk said:
so what happens is if the alternator dumps more voltage in and that overvoltage can cause the lithium battery to disconnect to protect itself. basically the BMS disconnects the battery in the event of an alternator fault. note that good alternators - those you find on the average marine outboard thats a few years old from a reputable brand like yammy or merc or tohatsu -- will NOT do this. my diesel engine alternators which are beta marine will also NOT do this. but if you have an alternator fault it can do this or if you have a bad alternator it can do this. in any event if it does happen - the lifepo4 bms will disconnect the lithium battery to protect it, the current flow will go to zero. Power = Volts x Amps. 0 Amps means infinite volts. so voltage will shoot up from 16.5V to infinity and that will be the equivalent of a mini lightning strike inside the alternator. it will pretty much fry everything in the alternator. The APD is the equivalent of a burnable resistor. it absorbs the power by burning itself out to protect the alternator. its a one time use thing. The APD is 100% reliable in that it sacrifices itself to protect your alternator -- but it only works once. think of it as an expensive last ditch fuse to protect your engine electronics from the alternator which is going bad. you can think of the APD as a fire extinguisher. you hope you dont need it, but its there if you do. the same thing can BTW happen with lead acid -- if a cable breaks, fuse blows or something which disconnects your lead acids from the alternator, your alternator will fry. the APD will protect regardless of chemistry.
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Thanks for the excellent explanation. I may look into an APD for my boat (just a conventional boat with a single start battery and no real house load other than bilge, chartplotter and radio, and 12v outlet). I've always wished that the battery switch came with a lockout cover/tab to prevent a curious child (or adult, frankly) from randomly deciding to see what the big red knob does.
 
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Rain City said:
The previous owner had a Victron battery monitor installed when the batteries were changed in Dec 2021. The problem with the way they set it up, is that it only reads the port start battery. Pretty useless for the most part.
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they did it that way probably because that battery is also the house battery.

I dont monitor the starting batteries only for the fact that they only operate the motors. Its nice to see the house battery drop off and be able to just charge them off the motors.
 
To go through a battery in less than 3 years is a bit rough. I would bet the house/starting battery is undersized and gets drawn down too far with regular use. How's the other battery? Do you have a dual battery charger to top up both batteries when connected to shore power? People think that running the engines for an hour or so will charge the house battery, not the case - takes much, much longer. To reliably top up the house battery you need an external source - solar or shore power.
 
CiscoCat said:
they did it that way probably because that battery is also the house battery.

I dont monitor the starting batteries only for the fact that they only operate the motors. Its nice to see the house battery drop off and be able to just charge them off the motors.
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No it's the other way around. That one is only a start battery. The other battery is the dual purpose one.
 
Is it relatively easy to switch the Battery monitor over to the port side? Then at least you would get some useful information on the house load before you go spending money.

I see this all the time in construction. A perfectly good system is installed but is poorly commissioned/setup, owner gets frustrated and gets a new contractor to rip out /replace the whole thing. Everyone is happy to spend your money - when all you want is a system that works.
 
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