Northern Gateway APPROVED

Status
Not open for further replies.
No matter where you live you are supporting these companies when you buy fossil fuels. I just wonder how many of you would be able to survive if it was totally banned and forbidden to use anywhere?
You talk big about what is dirty and what isn't, smell the coffee! Your biggest problem is not going to be how to stop what is in motion, but how are you going to adapt to what is happening.
Sorry to be so blunt but those are cold, hard facts caused by our dependence on oil.

Of course we all use products derived from petroleum; your argument goes to the extreme (oil totally banned and forbidden) and suggests that no one has the moral authority to question the continuous expansion of Big Oil. Using the same argument, I should not criticize or question Stephen Harper's government because I use government services.

Just as Harper's ideological agenda is taking Canada in a questionable direction, the agenda of Big Oil has pushed our world onto a precarious trajectory. I agree with you that we all own this problem. Changing course, whether by weaning ourselves from reliance on oil or by retiring Harper, will take effort but the fact is that we are overdue for those positive changes and I think most of us will gladly adapt.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Foxsea I am not using this as an argument, you can read this whatever way you want but the cold hard facts stay. The people that occupy our planet are not prepared to give up their thirst for fossil fuel, it will be a ***** to wean them. Just forget that the oilsands even exist and see if there still is a problem.
Neil Young could not do his thing without fossil fuels.
 

Test?

Answer:
A picture of very happy fellow enjoying what loved to do and was proud of it.
A picture of happier days when sitting around the campfire with your friends telling jokes, talking about fishing and having a brew was the was the "original" social media network.
A picture which shows an individual not earning a 6 figure salary like his superiors, but was every bit more valuable in the bigger picture.
A picture of an unsung hero (amongst many like him) who did not do his job for praise, political votes, performance bonuses or media attention.
A picture of someone who was not afraid to be abrasive and was probably not the most politically correct, but wore his heart on his sleeve and was not fake.
A picture which shows the foundation of data collection - without it stock assessment is non-existent.

Sleep well now, soxy...You fought a hard battle.
 
Seems to me that I am seeing many of those pictures up here with BC license plates. :-)

Test?

Answer:
A picture of very happy fellow enjoying what loved to do and was proud of it.
A picture of happier days when sitting around the campfire with your friends telling jokes, talking about fishing and having a brew was the was the "original" social media network.
A picture which shows an individual not earning a 6 figure salary like his superiors, but was every bit more valuable in the bigger picture.
A picture of an unsung hero (amongst many like him) who did not do his job for praise, political votes, performance bonuses or media attention.
A picture of someone who was not afraid to be abrasive and was probably not the most politically correct, but wore his heart on his sleeve and was not fake.
A picture which shows the foundation of data collection - without it stock assessment is non-existent.

Sleep well now, soxy...You fought a hard battle.
 
Why do all anti-oil/pipeliners 'foresee' disaster?
The last thing an oil producer wants to see is the loss of the SHAREHOLDER'S (of which I bet you are 1) product pouring out, ANYWHERE.
Heres and idea: put the affected aboriginal population to WORK. Let them be watchdogs when the job is done, etc... That MIGHT keep them out of hair till they **** away that legacy at least.
But I guess its (Oil/Gas) better transported by truck and rail instead of a state of the art pipeline. I feel good about rail and road transport these days, lol!
As for tankers... the increase in traffic through BC waters is best described as dis-ingenuous, as Alaska crude has been plying BC waters for the last 30 years. Oh wait, say its not so... it is. Again why do the anti-tanker brigade seem to think there WILL be a spill? The Exxon Valdez was the result of alcohol abuse, think that will EVER happen again? I would say no, you should too. Again NOT in the best interest of shareholders of which I suspect YOU are 1. Check your mutual funds. The hippocracy of this argument is befuddling at best. Better to get on the attack of raw log exports than this one.
Suzuki is 1 out of touch, senile, toddering old fool. I used to respect him now he is a Canadian embarrassment to the International community (see ABC chat session).
Get on the program or stop using petro products. My 2 centz
 
Why do all anti-oil/pipeliners 'foresee' disaster?
That road takes us down the path that will be harmful to the rivers and ocean.
Those fish that you depend on will be gone, if not in your lifetime it will be in your children's time.
Not going to let it happen on my watch....
Latest poll say's that 64% of BCer's are against it.
So I guess I'm not alone.
 
BC Ferries can't even not hit an island. How long do you think it will last until a foreign oil tanker captain will hit a rock or reef? My bet is not very long.
 
http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2014/02/1...eadlines&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=170214

Creepy Canada
Now we're the Great Weird North, where citizens are to be spied on and not heard.
By Mitchell Anderson, 11 Feb 2014, TheTyee.ca

Is Canada getting creepy? It's getting close to Valentine's Day and perhaps a good time for Canadians to check in on our relationship with our federal government. The key ingredient in any relationship is trust -- something that has to go both ways. And I for one am not feeling the love.

Revelations last week that Communications Security Establishment Canada (CSEC) was spying on Canadians cell phones through airport Wi-Fi networks only came to light due to documents leaked by whistleblower Edward Snowden. Ontario's privacy commissioner Ann Cavoukian said she was "blown away" by the news, adding that CSEC's methods seemed those of a "totalitarian state, not a free and open society."

Snowden's cache of leaked documents also showed that that CSEC was helping the U.S. government to use their embassy as a listening post on Canadian soil during the G20 summit in 2010. Last month a federal court judge ruled that CSEC made a "deliberate decision to keep the court in the dark" about asking foreign governments to spy on Canadians.

CSEC remains the only security agency of our four closest intelligence allies to lack oversight from elected officials. With no apparent sense of irony, Prime Minister Harper's national security adviser warned that any additional public safeguards on CSEC "should be viewed with caution."

Not to worry. The person chosen to chair the Security Intelligence Review Committee responsible for keeping an impartial eye on Canada's security apparatus was former Harper cabinet minister Chuck Strahl. Small world.

However he was forced to resign when it was revealed that he was moonlighting as a lobbyist for the Enbridge Northern Gateway project -- an obvious conflict given that CSIS is spying on anti-pipeline activists -- in partnership with the RCMP and private oil companies.

Creepy legislation

If the "Harper Government" is suspicious about the general Canadian population, they are downright paranoid about people opposed to pipelines. In 2012, Minister of Natural Resources Joe Oliver referred to Canadians questioning pipeline expansions as "environmental and other radical groups that would seek to block this opportunity to diversify our trade." A month later Ottawa released a revised anti-terrorism strategy that lumped environmentalists in with white supremacists as a threat to national security.

Seven major environmental organizations are now being targeted by Ottawa to have their charitable status revoked. Somehow Finance Minister Jim Flaherty found an extra $8 million in the 2012 belt-tightening budget that was specifically earmarked for Canada Revenue Agency to pursue some of the most vocal critics of pipeline projects. As Stephen Harper promised, our country is becoming unrecognizable.

Not creepy enough for you? Last week the government introduced sweeping changes to Canada's Election Act without bothering to consult with Canada's chief electoral officer, who called the new bill an affront to democracy. News enthusiasts will recall how a federal court judge determined the database controlled by the Conservative Party was implicated in what he called "widespread" electoral fraud in 2011 and that party lawyers employed "trench warfare in an effort to prevent this case from coming to a hearing on the merits."

If the government doesn't trust Canadians, why should we trust them? For democracy to function the public needs to have faith that our regulators are making impartial decisions on contentious projects like pipelines based on sound science and a good faith effort to listen to their citizens.

In this case the regulator is the National Energy Board (NEB), whose important mandate is to convene public hearings, listen to expert evidence and determine whether a project is in the public interest.

The omnibus budget bill of 2012, creepily called the "Jobs, Growth and Long-term Prosperity Act" severed the independence of the NEB, making all their decisions subject to cabinet approval.

Rammed through parliament and the Senate in slightly over two months, this sprawling bill effectively gutted almost every environmental law in the country and specifically exempted energy projects like pipelines from independent environmental assessments. Who says lobbying doesn't pay?

In spite of these chilling changes, Canadians came out in droves to participate in the Enbridge Northern Gateway hearings hosted by the NEB. Public hearings in twenty-one communities heard oral presentations from 1,179 people (only two of which were in favour of approval). Another 9,400 letters were submitted by the public -- Elections Canada could wish for such enthusiastic participation.

Creepy rules for who can participate

While there was obviously an appetite for citizens to be heard by regulators, the process seemed rigged from the start. Apart from Minister Oliver's public cheerleading of all things pipeline, the NEB only considered upstream benefits like jobs while ignoring upstream negatives like carbon emissions. Their glossy approval report is thin gruel compared to the level of detail considered by the US government in the recent Keystone XL assessment.

Since then the NEB has become even more hostile to public participation in pipeline proposals. Only those with a "direct interest" can apply to be heard. The Line 9 reversal in Ontario had an unannounced two-week window for citizens to somehow find and fill out an arcane 10-page application form. No community hearings were held and NEB is now required to release a decision within 15 months.

These new barriers succeeded in limiting the total number of public participants to only 160 -- about two per cent of those heard from in the Enbridge hearings -- even though the pipeline runs through an area that includes fully half of the Canadian population.

The review of the contentious Kinder Morgan pipeline through Burnaby has a similarly short window and closes Feb. 12. Apparently not even pretending to care, Kinder Morgan was outed by a local paper for switching their preferred pipeline route through the middle of Burnaby days before the public comment period closes.

Creepy ways to handle risk

If approved, this massive increase in diluted bitumen piped from Alberta would see tanker traffic through Vancouver harbour increase by 330 per cent to more than one transit per day through the shallow Second Narrows channel. What could go wrong?

Plenty. Canadians are being told that pipelines to access Asian markets are an economic necessity for our nation, even though some economists maintain exactly the opposite is true. Even accepting the purported boon to our economy rather than merely boosting oil industry profits, what are the economic risks of a tanker accident?

The Vancouver economy is worth over $100 billion per year, about seven per cent of GDP of the entire country. A national recession can be triggered by a reduction in GDP of as little as one per cent -- close to the amount generated on a daily basis at Vancouver's international port.

The relatively small spill of diluted bitumen in the Kalamazoo River is still being cleaned up almost four years later because sunken heavy oil is so difficult to recover. Thirty-four AFRAmax tankers per month are planned to squeeze through the Second Narrows channel with less than two metres of under hull clearance during a 20-minute high tide window. They also carry 25 times more diluted bitumen than spilled in Kalamazoo. What would be the economic impact to Canada of a tanker accident in our nation's busiest harbour? Given the potentially catastrophic risks, why are we even considering this?

These questions require serious public debate but the current approval process for pipelines seems little more than a containment exercise for dissent rather than a good faith effort to reach sensible policy decisions.

Creepy trust issues

Just how far gone is the credibility of the NEB? Last week it was revealed that the federal regulator sat on an incident report since 2011 about a massive natural gas pipeline explosion in northern Alberta that sent flames 50 metres into the air.

Apparently TransCanada Pipelines had allowed 95 per cent the pipe to corrode away in spite of a commitment to conduct physical inspections long before it had deteriorated to the point of failure. The CBC had to access the report through a lengthy access to information request because the NEB failed to make it available to the public. Could keeping this embarrassing report under wraps have anything to do with the pending presidential decision on TransCanada's Keystone XL project? Don't be such a cynic...

As Canadians queue up for another round of public hearings about pipelines, we should ask ourselves: is our government really interested in what we have to say?

For better or worse, Canadians and their government have a long-term relationship. Without trust, any relationship goes south fast. It's becoming clear that the "Harper Government" doesn't trust Canadians, and that Canadians shouldn't trust them either.

We deserve better from this relationship. More trust. More money. More respect.

As we approach Valentine's Day, Canadians should face up to the hard truth that this government doesn't really love us anymore. They are having an affair with the oil industry.
 
Why do all anti-oil/pipeliners 'foresee' disaster?
The last thing an oil producer wants to see is the loss of the SHAREHOLDER'S (of which I bet you are 1) product pouring out, ANYWHERE.
Of course oil producers do not want a spill. How on earth does that mean it won’t happen? It DID happen and does happen all the time. Kalamazoo river is just one example. Human error guarantees it will happen. The NTSB in the U.S. called Enbridge “Keystone Cops” in their report on the Kalamazoo disaster because people IGNORED what the sensors were telling them.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...ps-response-to-michigan-spill/article4402752/

And you want these people putting a pipeline across 800 BC rivers and streams!? Appalling!!

Heres and idea: put the affected aboriginal population to WORK. Let them be watchdogs when the job is done, etc... That MIGHT keep them out of hair till they **** away that legacy at least.
Derogatory, racist, disrespectful, and ignorant of how pipelines are even monitored. Not worth responding.

But I guess its (Oil/Gas) better transported by truck and rail instead of a state of the art pipeline. I feel good about rail and road transport these days, lol!
So, we are supposed to choose the lesser of two evils are we? Even supposing pipelines are safer than rail/truck, which is doubtful, is there no other alternative to exporting this stuff? And what exactly is a “state-of-the-art pipeline? I know one thing. No pipeline is EVER infallible, it will corrode and decay over time and no one will remove it after usage has finished. Another multi-million dollar mess for our children to clean up!!
In addition, shipping raw bitumen to China is a cynical, exploitive move that robs Canadians of refinery jobs and of their resources, while endangering BC’s ecology and thousands of jobs that depend on our environment. MUCH worse than shipping raw logs since it is not a renewable resource!

As for tankers... the increase in traffic through BC waters is best described as dis-ingenuous, as Alaska crude has been plying BC waters for the last 30 years. Oh wait, say its not so... it is.
This is a gross generalisation. There is a huge variation in the types of tankers, their size, what type of oil products they carry and the routes they ply. A good analysis of the existing traffic and the routes they follow is here:

http://www.ceaa-acee.gc.ca/050/documents_staticpost/cearref_21799/86129/Shipping_on_the_BC_Coast.pdf

The point is Northern Gateway will vastly increase very large tanker traffic going through Douglas Channel and Hecate Strait. What is more, these tankers will be carrying diluted bitumen in one direction and condensate (diluents) in the other. Very nasty and very toxic compounds both and impossible to “clean up” on the rugged and wild BC coast. The risks that BC is expected to incur on behalf of Alberta and the Enbridge shareholders vastly outweighs any apparent “benefit” to be gained. In fact one big tanker disaster, when it happens, will wipe out years of “profits”
Again why do the anti-tanker brigade seem to think there WILL be a spill? The Exxon Valdez was the result of alcohol abuse, think that will EVER happen again? I would say no, you should too. Again NOT in the best interest of shareholders of which I suspect YOU are 1. Check your mutual funds.
Wrong, for all the reason I stated above, it WILL happen again.
As to mutual funds, most folks I know have dumped all their mutual funds with holdings in Enbridge and the tar sands. Many other pension funds are doing this too, and there is growing pressure for municipalities and cities to follow suit.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bdfbf812-16e0-11e3-9ec2-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2tcNePW2y

http://briarpatchmagazine.com/articles/view/tarsands-divestment-and-its-discontents

http://tarsandssolutions.org/campaigns/tar-sands-free

http://gofossilfree.org/

The hippocracy of this argument is befuddling at best. Better to get on the attack of raw log exports than this one.
Hypocrisy (to spell the word correctly) is a facile accusation. It is not hypocritical to use our health system or other public services, while finding fault with how it is operated and calling for improvements. Similarly it is not hypocritical to call a halt to a destructive proposal which is so bad for BC, Canada and the world.
Suzuki is 1 out of touch, senile, toddering old fool. I used to respect him now he is a Canadian embarrassment to the International community (see ABC chat session).
A very low ad hominem attack which shows the weakness of your arguments. Over 60 percent of BC residents are against the Enbridge proposal. I think it is you who are the embarrassment, not Suzuki.

http://www.desmog.ca/2014/02/04/pol...ose-enbridge-oil-tanker-and-pipeline-proposal

http://www.vancouversun.com/technol...hern+Gateway+pipeline+poll/9469513/story.html

Get on the program or stop using petro products. My 2 centz
Get on the program and demand that your investments and your tax dollars do not subsidise 30 more years of oil sand development and insane consequences to future generations on this planet but instead are directed towards a 30 year program to get us off fossil fuels. It is not easy; it is not possible to achieve over night; and it will require new public policies and new government directions. But that is no reason to continue with “business as usual” which is a destructive dead end.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Englishman, great reply to yet another post that clearly is out of place amongst those that are intelligent, thoughtful and move the thread forward. I can't wait to see the reply.
 
For the record I do not want to see this wholesale destruction going on here. We are not getting a good value from our oil here and for that we are endangering other areas unnecessarily.
I wish we could tune back this mess to 15 years ago and and restart this with better controls and more return on the dollar. If any country wants this product they can buy it refined in Canada. This raping of our resources has to stop.
I will still stand and argue untruths about the oilsands but I do agree with true facts.
 
For the record I do not want to see this wholesale destruction going on here. We are not getting a good value from our oil here and for that we are endangering other areas unnecessarily.
I wish we could tune back this mess to 15 years ago and and restart this with better controls and more return on the dollar. If any country wants this product they can buy it refined in Canada. This raping of our resources has to stop.
I will still stand and argue untruths about the oilsands but I do agree with true facts.

You da man Sir, would love to meet you one day, sincerely. It's one of those things, if we only knew then, what we know now.

Or we could munch popcorn, boast about fat pay cheques, blame natives for all our problems, and resort to childish retorts.
 
For the record I do not want to see this wholesale destruction going on here. We are not getting a good value from our oil here and for that we are endangering other areas unnecessarily.
I wish we could tune back this mess to 15 years ago and and restart this with better controls and more return on the dollar. If any country wants this product they can buy it refined in Canada. This raping of our resources has to stop.
I will still stand and argue untruths about the oilsands but I do agree with true facts.
And you keep right on cashing those paycheques...
 
Or we could munch popcorn, boast about fat pay cheques, blame natives for all our problems, and resort to childish retorts.
Amazing how you could predict the future.... ^^^^^^ LOL
 
Actually I have earned a pension having worked for Syncrude Canada. If you would like to check Syncrude upgrades on site making a synthetic crude which is desirable to any refinery. Another plus is that by doing this 0.70 of every dollar is kept in Canada.
So really I have been contributing to Greenhouse gases, I have been doing it in a more or less responsible way. I do not approve of wholesale destruction.
The " Bad boy" the media has been using is Suncor which at the time of it's inception was G.C.O.S. this happened during the early sixties and it was just for a twenty five year period.
You would not get approval to be this close to a river bank today. Also it is going to be a different matter for BC to get approval for the peace power project as that river has been damaged by the Wacky dam and it directly affected the Fort Chippewan way of life on the delta. So we are learning and have learned since then. :-)

And you keep right on cashing those paycheques...
 
Web Meditations with Janet Holder
Former Province cartoonist Dan Murphy’s latest poke at Enbridge’s ongoing efforts to buff up the image of its controversial Northern Gateway pipeline. Here, Murphy takes on the “face” of Enbridge’s PR efforts, Janet Holder, whose mug and voice have filled newspapers, websites and airwaves in recent months with fuzzy reassurances about her company’s commitment to pipeline and tanker safety.
Murphy’s skewering of the pipeline builder’s pastel-themed ads went viral in 2012 after the Province bowed to pressure and pulled the cartoon. The spoof came on the eve of a $5 million ad campaign with the paper’s owner, Postmedia. Murphy left the paper soon thereafter.
Postmedia further besmirched its journalistic reputation with the recent revelation of an advertising partnership with the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers which involves friendly editorial content.


[NdH1tcANb7I] http://youtu.be/NdH1tcANb7I
 
I like that one better.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top