new riggers, Braid vs Cable

I think it's kind of funny hearing how some guys want to go to 250-300lb test on braid... ( i use 150lb)
Scotty ss cable is only rated at 150lbs breaking strength and how often was that an issue ?
 
Braid versus Cable is very much a personal preference. There is “no” advantages for “me” to switch to braid and many “disadvantages” for “me”! Biggest issue, I have “Cannon Downriggers”, with “positive ION and “quick stop”. Plus, I just prefer cable!

Concerning the “black box”, I would tend to agree with IFL… it “probably” would not help, most?
I can’t say a “black box” will or will not help you catch fish, as that depends on how you fish! It has been proven that positive IONs do attract fish. However, it has also been proven if your downrigger is at depth or your drop back is so far back, there probably won’t be any effect one way or the other? That small amount of current will only travel so far at any setting. Even if your boat is hot, (which does need fixed)… that current will also only travel so far!

Replacing cable every year… quit buying that “cheap” crap!
My cables are well over five years old. I do admit, I rinse them with fresh water after each use and have been known to spray everything down with WD40, but my downriggers are also exposed to salt air 24/7 and have been since 2006. Cannon actually recommends changing the cable after two years, but I will keep mine until I start having breaking issues? The loss of any of the “positive ION”, is “not” even a concern, to me. Also, any line (including wire and braid) will degrade with use and over the years, regardless of what it is made from… including “ProwerPro”!

The “Palomar Knot”… You bet, that would be one of the knots of choice with braid or mono. But, if anyone believes you are not reducing the breaking strength of “any” line by trying a knot in it… you might want to do some homework? The only question is “how much”! If any part of the knot over laps itself… you should consider you just reduced breaking the strength 50%! Answer is simply, buy a larger line?

If “I” were to use “braid”, it would be “PowerPro Downrigger”… As all braid is “not” equal!
Construction of Braided Lines: Braided lines are exactly what they sound like...strands of fiber forming a regular diagonal pattern down the entire length of the spool. PowerPro is braided using 4 strands, each is composed of scores of exceptionally thin Spectra fibers. While a 3 strand line comes out to be flat, PowerPro comes out square but appears relatively round due to its thin profile. Prior to braiding, each strand is coated and with closer examination you will notice the individual braids. Coating the line gives it a harder and thinner profile that has a number of advantages and disadvantages, and we'll explicate more on these factors during our tests.
http://www.tackletour.com/reviewpowerpro.html

We were amazed to find the 37kg spectra samples broke at 21.5 kg in the granny knot test. This is 57% of the rated breaking strain and much higher than we thought possible.

We then went on to try a series of other popular knots and, as expected, a bimini twist (a complex fishing line twist knot) was found to be one of the best breaking at 27kg or 73% of the rated breaking strain.

Other popular mono knots, like a uni knot and clinch knot were little better than the granny knot when tied into the spectra line and we do not recommend using them.

After looking at the various knots under strain with a powerful magnifying glass it was obvious that spectra cuts into spectra just as easily as mono will cut into mono.

Also, because spectra is so slippery, the knots pull up incredibly tightly, further compounding the issue.
http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/50/knotrope.html
http://www.animatedknots.com/indexfishing.php?
 
quote:Originally posted by Charlie

Braid versus Cable is very much a personal preference. There is “no” advantages for “me” to switch to braid and many “disadvantages” for “me”! Biggest issue, I have “Cannon Downriggers”, with “positive ION and “quick stop”. Plus, I just prefer cable!

Concerning the “black box”, I would tend to agree with IFL… it “probably” would not help, most?
I can’t say a “black box” will or will not help you catch fish, as that depends on how you fish! It has been proven that positive IONs do attract fish. However, it has also been proven if your downrigger is at depth or your drop back is so far back, there probably won’t be any effect one way or the other? That small amount of current will only travel so far at any setting.
Click to expand...

Hi Charlie .....so far I have stuck to cable because I have a black box and feel it helps enough that its worth it.....or maybe I just feel I bought it so have to use it :D
....cable and pos voltage as apposed to no voltage.... hmmmm, here we go again ! The topic will never die ;). What I have read from Scotty is that with the black box you lose only approx .100 volts for each 100' of depth which is really minimal considering you can just turn it up to compensate if you want to. They also suggest that for the first 100 feet there is little or no loss. Anotherwords if I want .560V at 50 or 100 ft I set it at that, if I want .560V at 200 feet I would set it at .660V. Really it doesn't matter too much what the actual setting is as long as you keep records of what voltage may work better for you at what depth. I figure if you put your terminal tackle out more than 8- 12 feet from the cable you are probably getting out of the voltage zone but really thats just a guess. Any ideas out there on that ?!!

I do find the black box and voltage may give a slight edge at times but also perhaps a disadvantage if you have a too high setting or if your ambient voltage without the box was as good or better. I change my settings if the fishing is slow but if that wasn't the reason for not getting hits maybe I just adjusted it to a setting that is less effective. "Practice makes perfect"! I do find when fishing sockeye with my terminal gear in very close to the cable the higher box reading helps and sometimes the pulse reading increases hits if the bite is slower.
I'd be open to trying Braid but not yet convinced. If I could get out there way more often I'd for sure be out there testing out and comparing both myself . One problem with testing riggers side by side ( one with cable and other with braid) is the cable downrigger with positive voltage may be "pulling" fish in to both riggers and effecting the test catch results of the braid rigger as well.
 
quote:I think it's kind of funny hearing how some guys want to go to 250-300lb test on braid.
Click to expand...


Ya what craven said! On the boat I just sold I ran 130lb test for 2 years, fishing 12 months of the year and dragging lots of bottom, with never a break. And I guarantee I can fish deeper with 130lb braid then you can with any cable.

If you are breaking off braid, you need to look at how you're tying things up and get in the habit of retying every once in a while - or maybe you got a bad batch?

IMO put 400' of 130/150lb test and then 10 feet of gangion. As LC said, even with light braid you will spin your boat around before it breaks.

Had scotty cable on the boat I work and must have lost 4 or 5 balls on the drop last summer and I rinse after every trip.

As for knot strength here is some figures from testing done at IGFA's headquarters in Dania Beach, Florida:

KNOT TEST -- 20-POUND BRAIDED LINE (Fireline)
Line to Swivel/ Tackle
100% PALOMAR 2 times through 54.3 272% M
70% UNI double line, braid 8 times through/mono 4 times through 38.4 192% H
64% IMPROVED CLINCH double line, 10 times through 34.7 174% H
63% IMPROVED CLINCH single line, doubled at knot, 10 times through 34.5 173% H
63% UNI single line, doubled at knot, 8 times through 34.1 171% H
59% PALOMAR single line, three times through, 2 locks 31.9 160% H

Oh ya and the black box is the biggest gimmick since the charlie white lure!!! :D. Every guy I know who has one, normally forgets to even turn it on.

http://www.fishingvancouverisland.org
 
quote:Originally posted by Island Fish Lifter

quote:Originally posted by phnapa

Black box wont work with braid, ill stick with my cable
Click to expand...

Black box wont make any difference no matter what you do. If your not catching fish, its you, not your voltage. I always love it when this one comes up. I have buddies (who arent guides) who couldnt catch fish and swore it was a voltage issue. They bought into the black box idea and they still dont catch fish! I see this all the time. I have customers who want me to install black boxes thinking it will make them better fishermen but I refuse and send them to someone else that will do it just for the $.
Like Charlie said, If your boat's hot, you should be worrying about your components being damaged.


untitled.jpg

Fill the dam tub!
Click to expand...
Didnt mean to change the thread, used a voltage device since i was commercial fishing, im convinced they work FOR ME, not really going to debate it, if you dont think it works, dont but it, for me it works especially for sockeye
 
Yea, I guess it is a “personal choice”… And, yea, I guess… here we go again!

Knots! :D
Knots are only as good as the “person” tying them, period! I have tested my knots. If, I take my time… I have gotten as high as 80%. In a hurry or not watching what I was doing, same knot - around 40%? I would suspect anyone claiming 100% (?), but I suppose in a “perfect world” I could get 100%... but since I am not perfect, “I” assume if I tie a knot in “anything”… I just reduced its breaking strength 50%? Personally (after losing a few fish – due to knots), I do watch my knots closely and would take all those tests with a grain of salt. “I” would tend to agree with this test:
quote: Just about everyone knows that a granny knot is about the worst knot you can tie as it forces the line around a very small diameter and causes it to cut into itself.

Usually monofilament lines that break above 50% are considered good quality and lines that break above 60% in this brutal test are exceptional.

During tests on the strongest nylon fishing line we have had up to 68%.

We were amazed to find the 37kg spectra samples broke at 21.5 kg in the granny knot test. This is 57% of the rated breaking strain and much higher than we thought possible.

We then went on to try a series of other popular knots and, as expected, a bimini twist (a complex fishing line twist knot) was found to be one of the best breaking at 27kg or 73% of the rated breaking strain.

Other popular mono knots, like a uni knot and clinch knot were little better than the granny knot when tied into the spectra line and we do not recommend using them.

After looking at the various knots under strain with a powerful magnifying glass it was obvious that spectra cuts into spectra just as easily as mono will cut into mono.

Also, because spectra is so slippery, the knots pull up incredibly tightly, further compounding the issue.
Click to expand...
http://www.fishingkites.co.nz/fishingknots/spectra_fishing_line.html
And, this is only… IMHO! :D:D

Black Box and Positive Ion Control?
Positive Ion Control (Black Box), has very much been proven effective and is again, entirely upon how one fishes and what they are fishing for!
quote: Positive Ion Control (PIC) is very effective when trolling. The zone of attraction created at the downrigger wire will attract the fish. It is best to use a short drop back between the downrigger release and the lure. Drop backs of 10 to 20 ft. are typical. A drop back of 50 to 100 ft. will entirely negate the effects of the Positive Ion Control circuit.”
Click to expand...
Concerning Peaheads comments… he is 100% correct concerning the current going down the cable! But, don’t forget about the drop back?
quote: Fishing depths greater than 125 ft. may require a slightly higher Positive Ion Control voltage. If you return to shallow water fishing remember to turn the PIC voltage down again.

The correct PIC setting for your best fishing advantage varies, depending on fish type and location. For example, the proper setting for Puget Sound Steelhead may not be effective for Great Lakes Steelhead. To fully benefit from PIC technology, it is important that you experiment with the PIC setting to find the proper voltage for the gamefish in your area. For more information on this subject, refer to “Secrets of Fishing with Electricity” by Ollie Rode.
Click to expand...

But, again... This stuff has been proven!
And of course... IMHO! [:0]:D
 
quote:Originally posted by Island Fish Lifter

quote:Originally posted by phnapa

Black box wont work with braid, ill stick with my cable
Click to expand...

Black box wont make any difference no matter what you do. If your not catching fish, its you, not your voltage. I always love it when this one comes up. I have buddies (who arent guides) who couldnt catch fish and swore it was a voltage issue. They bought into the black box idea and they still dont catch fish!

untitled.jpg

Fill the dam tub!
Click to expand...
IFL some of what you say I agree with , especially about people thinking there not catching fish because they don't have a black box. Obvously buying and using a black box does not turn a lousy fisherman into a good one. I sort of thought that was a no brainer.
However comparing box or no box ,if all else is equal and your boat is fixed and not hot, tweaking your voltage can increase your catch but you have to know how to use a black box properly to see the success increase. Keep logs of settings/depths/species. As I said in a post above and as another person commented the box tweaking seems to be quite successful "especially when fishing Sockeye"
 
quote:Originally posted by Peahead

quote:Originally posted by Island Fish Lifter

quote:Originally posted by phnapa

Black box wont work with braid, ill stick with my cable
Click to expand...

Black box wont make any difference no matter what you do. If your not catching fish, its you, not your voltage. I always love it when this one comes up. I have buddies (who arent guides) who couldnt catch fish and swore it was a voltage issue. They bought into the black box idea and they still dont catch fish!

untitled.jpg

Fill the dam tub!
Click to expand...
IFL some of what you say I agree with , especially about people thinking there not catching fish because they don't have a black box. Obvously buying and using a black box does not turn a lousy fisherman into a good one. I sort of thought that was a no brainer.
However comparing box or no box ,if all else is equal and your boat is fixed and not hot, tweaking your voltage can increase your catch but you have to know how to use a black box properly to see the success increase. Keep logs of settings/depths/species. As I said in a post above and as another person commented the box tweaking seems to be quite successful "especially when fishing Sockeye"
Click to expand...

I dont want to be a know it all or be narrow minded. Im going to keep the voltage issue on the "floppy disc" and not rule it out. Maybe theres merit to what you say. I dont think Im gonna run out and buy one just yet, but I may check my electrolysis from time to time. If I can improve my fishing.. why not?

untitled.jpg

Fill the dam tub!
 
How come you guys aren't using a Bimini twist and albright here?? Making about a five foot double leading to the ball would give you abit more protection if your stop slipped.

[img=left]http://gallery.bateau2.com/albums/userpics/12747/thumb_xDSC01379.JPG[/img=left]
 
quote:Originally posted by Peahead

quote:Originally posted by Island Fish Lifter

quote:Originally posted by phnapa

Black box wont work with braid, ill stick with my cable
Click to expand...

Black box wont make any difference no matter what you do. If your not catching fish, its you, not your voltage. I always love it when this one comes up. I have buddies (who arent guides) who couldnt catch fish and swore it was a voltage issue. They bought into the black box idea and they still dont catch fish!

untitled.jpg

Fill the dam tub!
Click to expand...
IFL some of what you say I agree with , especially about people thinking there not catching fish because they don't have a black box. Obvously buying and using a black box does not turn a lousy fisherman into a good one. I sort of thought that was a no brainer.
However comparing box or no box ,if all else is equal and your boat is fixed and not hot, tweaking your voltage can increase your catch but you have to know how to use a black box properly to see the success increase. Keep logs of settings/depths/species. As I said in a post above and as another person commented the box tweaking seems to be quite successful "especially when fishing Sockeye"
Click to expand...
Another thing i like about my b ox is you can check your natural voltage dialy , by keeping track i can tell when i need to pull the boat and check my zincs, especially whenn moored here in hardy the dock here is verry hot and can wear the zincs out real quick
 
Stainless cable...even if I have lost more than one cannonball due to rust spots.
 
I think for the tally to be objective the poster should have at least tried spectra on their boat for a reasonable trial period. Unless you have actually used it for a while I fail to see how you can claim cable is superior. I far prefer braid for many reasons.

Charlie, on the page you quoted regarding spectra knot strength you forgot to post the end of the quotation. They said 90% knot strength was consistently possible with spectra. All that is required is sheathing the knot with a higher test dacron line.

Exact quote below:


EUREKA! The simplest knot in the world, the humble granny, when protected by dacron is probably among the strongest fishing line knots you can tie in spectra.

For maximum strength all that is required to make the knot is a metre or two of dacon fishing line of bigger breaking strain than the spectra you are using.

For example, use 80lb dacron for 50lb spectra and 130lb dacron for 80lb spectra.

The spectra is threaded through a needle and the needle is fed backwards completely through the inside of the dacron.

For bigger lines feed one piece of dacron inside another to double the breaking strain before putting the spectra inside.

A granny knot is then tied into the dacron near the end where the spectra was inserted.

This results in a 10% reduction in strength at the granny knot and a vastly increased breaking strain in the last couple of metres of line where both the dacron and spectra continue to the end of the line.

Any secure knot can then be tied to whatever terminal tackle, clip or swivel you wish with real confidence that the final attachment will be 90% of the breaking strain of the spectra.

Fishers who use this method of knotting spectra will be able to tie consistent 90% knots in spectra that vary less than 2% regardless of how poorly they are tied. Absolutely no knowledge of how to tie fishing knots is required.
 
speaking of line and knots. the number stamped on the spool, 40# means: the minimum breaking strength! the line will actually part at somewhere between 20-30% over that number, depending on the manufacturer. so when you consider knot strength, keep that in mind.

if the spool of line says, IGFA certified, that means: the line will break at the stated strength, not above it. given that, knots become very important with this line.

for braid, i double the end and tie an improved clinch. the trick with any knot is understanding how to draw it tight so under tension the line is not slipping and cutting itself apart. takes some practice ot slide any knot tight but a bit of spit works wonders, as everyone knows.
 
quote:Originally posted by drhook

My advice is as follows:
Look at what depths you normally fish. If you are only a summer fisher and fish in the top 50', then I would suggest going with a heavy braid such as scotty's 275# stuff in the 300 foot roll. Seems to be bombproof and will last forever. If you normally fish deep in excess of 100-150' then cable might be better for you or a moderate weight braid such as 200# power pro.
Click to expand...

With the hassles of steel cable and no black box, I've went with braid and really like the simplicity...got a fray, cut off 2 feet with your knife, tie a knot, and you're fishing again in 1 minute.

I went with the heavy duty scotty braid, but found it has too much blowback when fishing deeper than 100 feet. I switched to 150lb powerpro, and have had no problems.

Now I have 2 rolls of lightly used heavy duty scotty braid for sale cheap! Or trade for WHY. [8D]
 
Any photos on how you tie the Dacron to the Spectra?

Had a weird thing happen last night.... I run 150lb Spectra. Somehow, the line got wrapped around the downrigger underneath the spool with a 15lb ball 120' down. No way I could get it to come loose. Ended up having to hand over hand in about 10ft of line (that crap is almost impossible to grip and there is no way I was going to wrap it around my hand) -- tied it around a cleat and was then able to cut the wrapped section from around the spool. Tied it back on and retrieved my gear without losing my stuff. Wouldn't be able to do that with wire.

I lost my first ball this year to a poorly tied knot with the Spectra so would love to see some pictures of the best setups.

TenMile
<'((((><
 
quote:Originally posted by TheBigGuy

I think for the tally to be objective the poster should have at least tried spectra on their boat for a reasonable trial period. Unless you have actually used it for a while I fail to see how you can claim cable is superior. I far prefer braid for many reasons.
Click to expand...
I guess I am confussed again, I don't remember or see "anyone" claiming cable is superior? [?]
quote: Charlie, on the page you quoted regarding spectra knot strength you forgot to post the end of the quotation. They said 90% knot strength was consistently possible with spectra. All that is required is sheathing the knot with a higher test dacron line.
Click to expand...
That would be 90% if "sheathing the knot". Are you really going to sheath 150-250 pound PowerPro? I guess, I should add - I would! :)
I didn't forget... that is why I post links! At least now I know some do read the links! :D

Sheathing instructions are also shown on that link!
 
Hey, great idea PS!!!

So if I combine all the good advice above, a good braid setup would look like this:

Ball -> Rubber Snubber <clinch knot> Dacron (gangion) <clinch knot> Stainless Swivel (as line stopper) <clinch knot> Dacron ->Dacron/Dyneema sheath <overhand/granny knot> Dyneema spooled on rigger.

Theory:
150lb Dyneema tied with a clinch knot breaks at the knot at ~ 57% (86lbs)
250lb Dacron tied with a clinch knot breaks at the knot at ~ 57% (142lbs)
150lb Dyneema sheathed into 250lb Dacron and tied with an overhand knot breaks at 90% (135lbs)

Result:
150lb Dyneema has a break point of 135lbs (retains 90% strength) but you still get the advantage of the thin profile and limited blowback vs. 250-300lb.

Improvements? Hell, I'd even suggest making this post a sticky!!! "The SFBC recommended setup for braid on a downrigger..."

TenMile
<'((((><
 
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