kaelc
Crew Member
What was the cost for your install? My roof is close to end of life 2006 I think, but maybe good for another decade.
I bought a solar system today. Does that make me a space cadet?
- Thread starter fish brain
- Start date
Irishwolf
Crew Member
You should be paying about $2.50/watt +/- 3cents depending on who you go with (South Island area anyway). My system is 15kWh (15,000 watts). I paid just under 40k all in (2.52 a watt + tax & permit), but got just over 10k back in grants and the rest on an interest free loan for 10 years. I was lucky to time it just as the 5k federal grant was ending and the 5k BC Hydro grant was starting.
This will offset close to 100% of my power a year on average, but we will see how it plays out as my usage has gone up a bit this year (they base your quote on your previous years consumption). Shift guarantees output so I'm covered if my system fails to generate what they say it will. Not too worried about it though.
The panels actually protect the roof so depending on coverage you may get a few more years of life off your roof.
wildmanyeah
Crew Member
I read that in places like California people thought it would take 15-20 years to pay off a solar system but the rate of increase by hydro company's in the areas have been far greater than originally predicted and some have paid off their systems in 5-10 years.
wildmanyeah
Crew Member
did it affect your insurance at all?
Irishwolf
Crew Member
Yes, I had to pay a 180$ more for the year to cover them. Adds the cost of install to your building limit.
Hydro will only go up for us in BC. One only needs to fly over the mountains to see the snow cap is disappearing.
wildmanyeah
Crew Member
ah okay thats not to much at all awesome
sly_karma
Crew Member
Solar and wind are less predictable as grid inputs than traditional baseline generation (coal, gas, nuclear, hydro). Yes, you can predict that solar inputs in January will be far less than for July, but you can't predict what actual production you'll get on a given day of a given month. Grid managers already know they need to have quick responses to peaks and troughs throughout the day. In the past, these were almost all on the load side, classics like everyone firing up the AC when they get home from work in summer. Grids being interconnected across north america helps with managing renewables, as it's probably going to be windy or sunny somewhere on any given day.
fish brain
Crew Member
Irishwolf explained it well.
fish brain
Crew Member
In my opinion, this is where hydrogen should come in. Anytime you have an excess of power, use it to make hydrogen and draw on it in times of excess demand.
sly_karma
Crew Member
Deeply inefficient. Could do similar with compressed air and get a better result.
wildmanyeah
Crew Member
It’s more efficient to just pump water up to the top of a dam
I don’t dislike the idea tho
I don’t dislike the idea tho
Max123
Well-Known Member
Solar and residential construction is an interesting problem. I've periodically considered it, but held off for a number of reasons. Here are my thoughts:
1) BC has relatively low cost for electricity, rate changes are subject to the BC Utility commission, and its a crown corporation/monopoly. What this generally means is that while costs go up, the overall cost is still relatively cheap and goes up in a predictable manner. BC isn't subject to the same shenanegans that California experienced when they deregulated the electrical market in the early 2000s and were subject to the crazy price swings and rolling brownouts (remember Enron). In an under-regulated market a solar system with battery backup lets you arbitrage the market (by taking advantage of time-of-day pricing), and protects you from the sharks (by letting you remove yourself from the energy market when prices peak). In BC - you can't really make this case. If I lived in California or Texas, or somewhere with a less certain energy mix - sign me up.
2) In any remotely efficient market (caveat), there is no scenario where an individual homeowner can produce electricity cheaper than a utility working at scale. Residential real estate has the highest land cost and one of the highest construction costs out these. If solar is the cheapest form of energy generation, don't tack it onto a residential building with imperfect exposure, limited space, a constrained utility connection, and a bumbling homeowner taking care of it. Put it in some god foresaken desert with perfect sun exposure, where you can buy 100s of acres of land for pennies right next to a major transmission line - that's what a utility does.
3) If you live in Vancouver, new construction and renovation costs are at an all time high. People think the high cost of construction is basically a reflection of broader inflationary trends. It is and it isn't. Inflation is a permanent upward price move - that $5 latte is never going to come down to $4. This isn't true in construction - look at the price of a 2x4 now vs 3 years ago. The overall trend is upwards, but the graph is way more jagged then people generally appreciate. The cost of construction is very much driven by commodity prices and consumer supply/demand (eg what the market will bear). In addition, construction is an industry with a high degree of uncertainty and poor accounting. It is an industry driven by small operators and construction takes so long that trades have a hard time knowing if they are making money or not - so trades price on what people will pay, what they think the competition is charging, and whether they 'think' they are making money. This is particularly true on any project with a long lead time (highrise construction) or renovation, where there are so many more unknowns/headaches vs new construction. This can lead to really high construction costs during booms, that gets dialed way back during recessions. For example, we did a project in 2007 (before the finacial crisis), where construction costs were at an all time peak. The market tanked, construction costs came back down to earth and it took until the mid 2010s to get back up to the 2007 price. This idea of pricing what the market will bear is especially true right now in anything associated with energy efficient retrofits where all the trades know homeowners have access to a lot of incentives. Every HVAC contractor knows about the huge Clean BC heat pump grants (plus city of vancouver top up) - contractors are pricing accordingly. Same if you install solar in the Okanagan with the 0% financing offered by the Feds. The combination of high demand leftover from the pandemic, people genuinely motivated by climate change, plus high incentives is leading to historically high costs - this isn't quite the same as the inflation on your cup of coffee, or that set of new tires for your truck.
In my experience, renovation and retrofit are just insanely expensive right now, and the math related to payoff is somewhat suspect. Take your money and put it in a market tracking ETF, and come back to me in 10 years and compare it to an investment in solar. I'm not saying its the wrong move, nor do I discount anyone's other motivations, but go in with your eyes wide open.
If you can do the work yourself, or if you have the opportunity to incorporate into new construction at a reasonable cost - I think that's totally reasonable. That new garage with a south facing roof is perfect for solar - and if it can defray a substantial chunk of your energy cost - I totally understand the motivation. But, its not right for everyone. Don't convince yourself that your old house with a cluster-f of weird pitches/gables/dormers, needs a solar system because the Feds are offering 'free money'. Its just not worth it.
1) BC has relatively low cost for electricity, rate changes are subject to the BC Utility commission, and its a crown corporation/monopoly. What this generally means is that while costs go up, the overall cost is still relatively cheap and goes up in a predictable manner. BC isn't subject to the same shenanegans that California experienced when they deregulated the electrical market in the early 2000s and were subject to the crazy price swings and rolling brownouts (remember Enron). In an under-regulated market a solar system with battery backup lets you arbitrage the market (by taking advantage of time-of-day pricing), and protects you from the sharks (by letting you remove yourself from the energy market when prices peak). In BC - you can't really make this case. If I lived in California or Texas, or somewhere with a less certain energy mix - sign me up.
2) In any remotely efficient market (caveat), there is no scenario where an individual homeowner can produce electricity cheaper than a utility working at scale. Residential real estate has the highest land cost and one of the highest construction costs out these. If solar is the cheapest form of energy generation, don't tack it onto a residential building with imperfect exposure, limited space, a constrained utility connection, and a bumbling homeowner taking care of it. Put it in some god foresaken desert with perfect sun exposure, where you can buy 100s of acres of land for pennies right next to a major transmission line - that's what a utility does.
3) If you live in Vancouver, new construction and renovation costs are at an all time high. People think the high cost of construction is basically a reflection of broader inflationary trends. It is and it isn't. Inflation is a permanent upward price move - that $5 latte is never going to come down to $4. This isn't true in construction - look at the price of a 2x4 now vs 3 years ago. The overall trend is upwards, but the graph is way more jagged then people generally appreciate. The cost of construction is very much driven by commodity prices and consumer supply/demand (eg what the market will bear). In addition, construction is an industry with a high degree of uncertainty and poor accounting. It is an industry driven by small operators and construction takes so long that trades have a hard time knowing if they are making money or not - so trades price on what people will pay, what they think the competition is charging, and whether they 'think' they are making money. This is particularly true on any project with a long lead time (highrise construction) or renovation, where there are so many more unknowns/headaches vs new construction. This can lead to really high construction costs during booms, that gets dialed way back during recessions. For example, we did a project in 2007 (before the finacial crisis), where construction costs were at an all time peak. The market tanked, construction costs came back down to earth and it took until the mid 2010s to get back up to the 2007 price. This idea of pricing what the market will bear is especially true right now in anything associated with energy efficient retrofits where all the trades know homeowners have access to a lot of incentives. Every HVAC contractor knows about the huge Clean BC heat pump grants (plus city of vancouver top up) - contractors are pricing accordingly. Same if you install solar in the Okanagan with the 0% financing offered by the Feds. The combination of high demand leftover from the pandemic, people genuinely motivated by climate change, plus high incentives is leading to historically high costs - this isn't quite the same as the inflation on your cup of coffee, or that set of new tires for your truck.
In my experience, renovation and retrofit are just insanely expensive right now, and the math related to payoff is somewhat suspect. Take your money and put it in a market tracking ETF, and come back to me in 10 years and compare it to an investment in solar. I'm not saying its the wrong move, nor do I discount anyone's other motivations, but go in with your eyes wide open.
If you can do the work yourself, or if you have the opportunity to incorporate into new construction at a reasonable cost - I think that's totally reasonable. That new garage with a south facing roof is perfect for solar - and if it can defray a substantial chunk of your energy cost - I totally understand the motivation. But, its not right for everyone. Don't convince yourself that your old house with a cluster-f of weird pitches/gables/dormers, needs a solar system because the Feds are offering 'free money'. Its just not worth it.
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wildmanyeah
Crew Member
no one renovates to make money, its to keep the wife happy lol
islandboy
Well-Known Member
If you are able to do most of it yourself, expand the square footage, then sell and move out after two years you might make money (mostly tax savings).
That's a pretty big IF.
fish brain
Crew Member
It may be inefficient, but the excess energy is being produced with no use, so why not?
What would you suggest they do with those unused photons?
I would consider installing solar for environmental reasons but not for financial reasons.
If it takes 10 years to recover my $30,000 investment (best case scenario), and instead investigated that $30,000 in a S&P500 ETF, I would have $118,000 in 10 years (based on a 14.7% 10 yr annual average return). If you factor in the benefit of interest free financing for 10 years for solar, but had to get a loan for the investment, you would have $62,000 (14.7% - 7.1% 10 year fixed rate mortgage = 7.6% net return) in 10 years.
If it takes 10 years to recover my $30,000 investment (best case scenario), and instead investigated that $30,000 in a S&P500 ETF, I would have $118,000 in 10 years (based on a 14.7% 10 yr annual average return). If you factor in the benefit of interest free financing for 10 years for solar, but had to get a loan for the investment, you would have $62,000 (14.7% - 7.1% 10 year fixed rate mortgage = 7.6% net return) in 10 years.
sly_karma
Crew Member
Cost and efficiency both better with battery storage. Electrolysis of water into H2 loses 25-30% of the energy. Storage equipment is considerably more expensive, less safe and less available than batteries.
Irishwolf
Crew Member
I looked at it like this: I could either pay $300 per month to BC Hydro indefinitely, or I could redirect that money to pay back an interest-free fed loan. In 10 years, my payments would end, and I’d still have the benefits of generating my own power. And while I’ll still need to pay some hydro costs, it will be a fraction of what I’d pay otherwise. For example, my neighbor—who’s had solar longer that I—pays about $200 a year with solar compared to $4,000+ without it. That’s a huge difference.
The benefits for me are:
- Future-proofing: Rates may be relatively low now, but they will go up — that’s a certainty. Solar protects me from rate increases.
- Control: I take control of my energy costs and reduce my reliance on a system I can’t influence.
- Carbon footprint: Solar significantly reduces my household emissions.
For example:
Economies of scale: While utilities can produce power at a lower cost per kWh at scale, that doesn't mean we are getting it cheaply. We still pay for delivery fees, grid maintenance and whatever other surcharges of the month BC Hydro chooses to charge us. With Solar, energy is produced where I use it: your house uses the solar first, and only pulls from the grid when no solar is available. And with net metering, any extra energy is sent to the grid 1:1 (in effect, BC Hydro is your battery).
Solar should be in the desert: Very true, deserts are ideal for large scale utility projects, but that doesn't mean residential solar is ineffective. BCs Okanagan Valley receives significant amounts of sunlight and even in areas that are cloudy, newer panels are efficient enough to generate significant energy. And again, there is the benefit of net metering.
Investing is better than buying solar: This assumes the homeowner has 30-40k in cash sitting around. Most people do not. And even if one did, the FEDs are offering interest free money for 10 years and up to 25% of the cost back in grants. If you are concerned about financial gain, then invest the grant money. Or more over, when the loan is paid off, take that money that would otherwise go to BCHydro with no solar and dump that monthly into your Vangaurd ETF. At least monthly you smooth out your position.
And let’s not forget about energy security. If energy prices spike or the grid has issues, I’ll still have power. That’s something the stock market cannot offer.
High renovation costs: I agree that construction costs can be high, but thanks to gov incentives, solar is much more accessible than it might seem. In my case, I’m not paying $40,000 upfront. I’m simply redirecting what I’d already pay to BC Hydro toward repaying a loan. After 10 years, that loan is gone, and I keep saving.
Solar is not ideal for older homes: I’m not sure this is true. Many older homes rely on baseboard heating, which is inefficient and energy-intensive. Pairing solar with upgrades like a heat pump not only offset those high energy demands but also modernizes the home for greater efficiency and resell value. I’m not saying it will always look pretty, but many panel manufactures offer solid black panels which depending on your roof colour, can help them to blend in.
For me, not everything is about dollars and cents. Solar gives me peace of mind, energy security, and a smaller carbon footprint. Those are benefits that you can’t put a price tag on.
sly_karma
Crew Member
Plug an EV truck into the solar, instead of $5000-7000 a year in gas and oil changes for an ICEr. What does that do for the equation?
