Harrison River Whites

[Cuba Libre]

My understanding is that whites still just don't fetch near the $ that a red would so surprises me that 'commercials' would prefer whites ..... lol , I am sure you mean they like the taste better. Funny isn't it that because of the public's expectation that salmon should be red, a big white would be worth so much less, or is this not so much the case anymore ? What is the $ difference now per pound that commercial guys fetch for white vs red ?"




"And, there VERY much is a difference in taste!" Well, we will have to disagree on that one Nog. As a biologist you know that there are MANY variables that influence the taste of a salmon. Such as overall condition of the beast, is the fish a coastal or interior fish ? ( the interior salmon DO have greater fat reserves) , how was the fish treated before being consumed, what was its primary diet etc. .

Many years ago I had a discussion with an old fishermen on his troller on reds vs whites. He served up a great meal of pan-fried white spring. My perception was previously that the reds were superior . He chuckled when I told him that the white he served was as good as any red I had eaten. He informed me that he saw no difference in taste, but since the buyers were not paying as much for whites, those were the ones he took home for his family. Pretty much explains why a commercial fishermen would be more inclined to take home a white, doesn't it ??

Cheers!!

 

[IronNoggin]

... I am sure you mean they like the taste better.

Yup, meant the taste, not the value of the fish in the hold. That very much is still the case, as we generally see the prices of whites hovering at less than 1/4 of that for reds. And of course is the reason a lot of the whites don't hit the market, becoming "Take Home" fish instead.

A few years back, a couple of the Ladz broke into the New York Jewish market (large demand for whites), and actually realized nearly double the rate for red fleshed springs. With all of the hassle related to long distance travel, the end result wasn't really worth the effort. Methinks there is still something of an opportunity there...

For myself, the whites are Excellent on the Barbee, and Fantastic Smoked. Best Candy I've ever produced came from a few whites.

"And, there VERY much is a difference in taste!" Well, we will have to disagree on that one Nog.

aYup. I seriously CAN tell the difference. the reds are much "fishier" in taste, the white's flavor is definitely more subtle in this regard, and of course much oilier (rich). Guess we simply agree to disagree on this one... Until I can set up a Blind Taste Test Party down the road that is...

I agree strongly that a LOT of variables come into play that can and do influence what they end up tasting like off your plate. In general though, it is safe to say that the whites will almost always be oilier, and quite a few folks actually prefer their subtle flavor. I have a couple of Ladz who have constant access to all the reds they can catch, but are waiting dockside to haul away any excess whites each time we land as they greatly prefer them for the smoker.

Will work on that Party thing. Sometime convenient between openings, or perhaps have to wait until the fall. Will letcha know CL...

Cheers,
Nog

 

[Cuba Libre]

Sounds good Sir!!!

 

[Ingvar56]

WhitesWe used to get a nickel a lb back

 

[Cuba Libre]

WhitesWe used to get a nickel a lb back

And I remember some of the trollers I knew getting really POed at the company giving them next to nothing. When they were sent to Chicago, a little bit of smoke and a little bit of food coloring and VOILA..... a gourmet product!!

 

[wicket]

now bear with me as I am an ignorant ontarioian.....whats a white...fresh sockeye? maybe a salmonid that hasnt started to colour up its flesh? work with me people ive got nuthin I mean nuthin to do here on weekends without any ice to fish on.
thanks

 

[Sculpin]

We catch quite a few white springs offshore of Ukee. I like getting some canned and the rest I smoke. The canned whites is like tuna with flavour.

 

[searun]

now bear with me as I am an ignorant ontarioian.....whats a white...fresh sockeye? maybe a salmonid that hasnt started to colour up its flesh? work with me people ive got nuthin I mean nuthin to do here on weekends without any ice to fish on.
thanks

2 different genetic strains (families) of chinook. One has red flesh, the other white and/or Marbled (mix of white and red). There are a few rivers (mostly glacial) where the whites predominate (Harrison, Chilliwack (were introduced from Harrison), Squamish, Homathco to name a few I can remember - probably more). Whites as you probably deduced from the thread have more oil in flesh and distinct flavour to me (some would argue not). The whites tend to break down quickly upon entering fresh water and have a pungent "fish" odor. You can sometimes distinguish the whites in salt water by smell too. From my experience the white run can have a greater mix of larger adults when caught closer to when they start heading towards the river. Hope that helps somewhat. There was a good post earlier in this thread that takes you to a web site that helps explain difference in the flesh colour.

 

[Charter Tofino]

How about looks? I find that whites seem to have more shoulders to them (stockier) than reds. They also can have huge yaps with an odd shape (See pic below). Not to say these are rules though.

Heres some pics of fatty whites.

40 lb white and low 20s red

Here are some hammer whites from Bammy. Jonny's fish on the left went 47.

 

[wicket]

thanks searun....that does clear it up appreciate it

 

[Bod]

I grew up on the Fraser River, where we gillneted thousands of springs. We got paid next to nothing for the whites(5 cents a pound was a little before my time) so that was the fish we lived on and sold the reds. We fished from March until December for springs. I always laugh when I hear about the "season" as there are springs in the Fraser pretty much all year, although I'm sure they are not as plentifull as when I was a kid.
Our DFO has spent way to much money researching the white vs. red thing and the only thing they know for sure is that they are a different color. Some are fat and short, others are long and skinny, reds are the same. They differ from stream to stream and there is really no way to say one is better than the other. They tried all the theory's, White came from glacial rivers, Whites ate herrring and Reds ate krill etc. None of that worked and the only difference is the color and your mind!!
There never used to be Marbles until they introduced White Springs into Red spring rivers for hatchery brood stock, so go figure. Some day we will not have a true Red spring Imho.
Bod

 

[trophywife]

I grew up on the Fraser River, where we gillneted thousands of springs. We got paid next to nothing for the whites(5 cents a pound was a little before my time) so that was the fish we lived on and sold the reds. We fished from March until December for springs. I always laugh when I hear about the "season" as there are springs in the Fraser pretty much all year, although I'm sure they are not as plentifull as when I was a kid.
Our DFO has spent way to much money researching the white vs. red thing and the only thing they know for sure is that they are a different color. Some are fat and short, others are long and skinny, reds are the same. They differ from stream to stream and there is really no way to say one is better than the other. They tried all the theory's, White came from glacial rivers, Whites ate herrring and Reds ate krill etc. None of that worked and the only difference is the color and your mind!!
There never used to be Marbles until they introduced White Springs into Red spring rivers for hatchery brood stock, so go figure. Some day we will not have a true Red spring Imho.
Bod

so this means the marble is a human affect? wow,,really, i'm not gonna call bulls--t on ya but really? i'm 40 and seem to remember catching these when i was an early teen?always thought it had more to do with where i was fish'n?

 

[Dogbreath]

so this means the marble is a human affect? wow,,really, i'm not gonna call bulls--t on ya but really? i'm 40 and seem to remember catching these when i was an early teen?always thought it had more to do with where i was fish'n?

Not really but a person could argue that humans accelerated the mixing of stocks thus producing more Marbles.

But unless one strain has some evolutionary advantage there'll always be a difference.

 

[searun]

Well that's truly an interesting debate. Perhaps it is just my bad memory, but I don't recall any marbled chinook when I was younger either. Ken and I are a little longer in the tooth than some, so perhaps those of us who started back in the Jurassic age pre-dated marbled Chinook. That said, could be a result of fading memory...I'm sure there are plenty of folks on the forum who can enlighten us Jurassics.

 

[Vanisle]

In the mid to late 70's, I was a teenager working at a fish plant on the North Coast. I handled tens of thousands of Springs in those years and do not remember ever seeing a "marbled" fish.

 

[profisher]

From previous post: "Whites lack an enzyme that allows the absorption of colour into the muscle. White's lack the enzyme altogether, marbled springs lack the enzyme only in the muscle groups that are white."

 

[Englishman]

OK Profisher. Your post provides the explanation of the biological cause of the difference in colour. But is does not answer the hypothesis put forward earlier that marbled fish only exist because humans have mixed the stocks. However, posts from "old timers" above indicate this indeed might be he case, although so far the evidence is only anecdotal. Would be interesting to know for sure. Someone also posted earlier that unless there is selective environmental pressure on the fish that causes one type to be favoured on the evolutionary race both types will exist. But again, as others have pointed out whites seem to originate in certain rivers, so my guess would be there IS a selective pressure but it only exists on specific rivers, so some stocks are red and some white, except where humans have messed it all up!!

 

[Bod]

The mixing of whites and reds to become marbles are something I decided all on my own from my observations. I bought thousands and thousands of springs from the early 70's until 2000 an something and early on they were either pure white or pure red in my observation. Before they put white spring brood stock into red spring rivers.
Just saying.
If anyone knows different I'd love to hear it.

 

[searun]

That's my recollection also, and I concur with your observation Ken. Seems that the Marbled Chinook is a fairly recent sighting, and I think your hypothesis is sound - most likely the mixing of White Chinook in the Vedder/Chilliwack system with the Reds they introduced later. Really interesting stuff, I hope there may be someone on the forum that can add some research details to help us.

 

[Ingvar56]

Started to post we got got a nickel a lb back in the mid 70's(after alittle research found it was a huge10 cents) and the only reason the cannery didn't just throw them away was because they knew a guy that ran sled dogs that took them. They graded bright red and pale red and everything else was garbage. Don't remember any marbles back then. Funny, was on the the dock at Island West last year and opened up a White and the Canadians said Columbian and the Yanks said Harrison. 2009 at the SW Corner 4 tyee-one 40 all white in the third week of July and I too thought they were Harrison. Then last year co-worker goes to West Port-WA. the middle of August and catches 10 spings -7 WHITES all 25 lbs plus. So much for what I thought. A far as price in 2009 they were getting $17.00 a pound filleted, last year $26.99 a Lb. Honestly $26.99 at Safeway in WA. If you are out there catching troll caught kings (springs) you need to market these Ivories on your own. They are highly, very highly sought after.Oh yeah back to Ukee- SW corner-137' in 160' of water ----Tomic 530 Tubby and caught at least 2 tyee every trip since 2009 ----TASTE----hands down --White --- no matterhow you cook it.