scott craven
Well-Known Member
This, I don't get ??
if there are 50 boats fishing in a spot do they estimate
every boat catches a halibut?
that's not reality.
Halibut opening
- Thread starter Roberth
- Start date
This, I don't get ??
if there are 50 boats fishing in a spot do they estimate
every boat catches a halibut?
that's not reality.
fishin solo
Crew Member
Was wondering the exact same thing good question!!
casper5280
Crew Member
Good advice on the measuring. Could mean the difference between a keeper and a released fish.
fishin solo
Crew Member
Are you serious? If so that is fffdd up
Fixit
Well-Known Member
i feel this is like when they post a 60kph speed limit on a highway when the 85th percentile is traveling at 88kph. at what point do you stop doing 60?
i get to do one halibut trip every other year or so. not once have i been able to bring back my limit of two - one over one under.... now theyre saying i should be doing 50kph? rediculous!1!!
i get to do one halibut trip every other year or so. not once have i been able to bring back my limit of two - one over one under.... now theyre saying i should be doing 50kph? rediculous!1!!
GLG
Well-Known Member
That's not how it works. Here is a link if you want to understand why.
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/stats/rec/pac/gs/faq-eng.html
casper5280
Crew Member
Again the numbers are so flawed. They fly over, how do they know many people are in the boat. The creel guy stops you and you are counted twice. I never even though about the way we measure the fish till tonight when that was pointed out to me. How is it possible to get a true count.
searun
Well-Known Member
Very basic description of how the catch estimates work.
When you are creel surveyed, they document your catch, place, and effort (time). Unfortunately the tendency for survey folks is to hang out near the cleaning tables - way easier to survey people with catch. Why is it unfortunate? Because they don't capture the data from people who don't have fish to clean, park their boat, and quietly walk away. That would reduce the CPUE if it was counted. That leads to over-estimation because the survey's roll up to a CPUE (catch per unit of effort). The CPUE is used to apply an estimate across all those boats viewed/counted from over-flights. An estimate is then applied to data which over-estimated the actual CPUE.
The other estimation bias is if a group of guides (not completing log books) are creel surveyed, their catch is added to the CPUE - and generally the guides have a higher CPUE that the average person - this increases the CPUE, because not all guides will fish hali's. Hali's tend to be cleaned at the cleaning tables, whereas a lot of salmon are just cleaned on the vessel, so the guide without hali would have no reason to hang out at a cleaning table where they would be surveyed. More bias towards over-counting halibut catch CPUE.
Then there is Irec, the Internet rec survey....when people complete that (a month after they were out fishing) their memory let's just say is faded at best. Those who do respond might have a tendency to be a fisherman and embellish a bit. Those surveys are also added to the Creel and over-flight data at P50. Yes discounted, but there are significant survey bias (IMO) that factor into the Irec.
With both Irec and Creel they do discount for some survey bias - the real question is about accuracy of the formula applied. This estimation of CPUE is applied to all the vessels counted on the over-flight and that is how you get 900 halibut caught in Area 19 in June when everyone is saying they don't catch many due to doggies.
Now comes the fun bit....the log book data is DEDUCTED from these to correct against double estimation. So this is why log books are very important because they will reduce the number of vessels where the estimate is applied. Thus the catch data where all guide vessels complete log books is more accurately representative of the actual catch (log books being accurate).
When you are creel surveyed, they document your catch, place, and effort (time). Unfortunately the tendency for survey folks is to hang out near the cleaning tables - way easier to survey people with catch. Why is it unfortunate? Because they don't capture the data from people who don't have fish to clean, park their boat, and quietly walk away. That would reduce the CPUE if it was counted. That leads to over-estimation because the survey's roll up to a CPUE (catch per unit of effort). The CPUE is used to apply an estimate across all those boats viewed/counted from over-flights. An estimate is then applied to data which over-estimated the actual CPUE.
The other estimation bias is if a group of guides (not completing log books) are creel surveyed, their catch is added to the CPUE - and generally the guides have a higher CPUE that the average person - this increases the CPUE, because not all guides will fish hali's. Hali's tend to be cleaned at the cleaning tables, whereas a lot of salmon are just cleaned on the vessel, so the guide without hali would have no reason to hang out at a cleaning table where they would be surveyed. More bias towards over-counting halibut catch CPUE.
Then there is Irec, the Internet rec survey....when people complete that (a month after they were out fishing) their memory let's just say is faded at best. Those who do respond might have a tendency to be a fisherman and embellish a bit. Those surveys are also added to the Creel and over-flight data at P50. Yes discounted, but there are significant survey bias (IMO) that factor into the Irec.
With both Irec and Creel they do discount for some survey bias - the real question is about accuracy of the formula applied. This estimation of CPUE is applied to all the vessels counted on the over-flight and that is how you get 900 halibut caught in Area 19 in June when everyone is saying they don't catch many due to doggies.
Now comes the fun bit....the log book data is DEDUCTED from these to correct against double estimation. So this is why log books are very important because they will reduce the number of vessels where the estimate is applied. Thus the catch data where all guide vessels complete log books is more accurately representative of the actual catch (log books being accurate).
GLG
Well-Known Member
I know one of the guys in the airplane and he told me his video equipment is so good that he can tell how much beer is left in that can sitting on the deck so I think they can count how many are onboard.
casper5280
Crew Member
GLG my boat is a hard top so that is way I said this. There is just about always somebody sitting inside the cabin for what ever reason.
Searun another great reason the numbers get flawed. All my fish are cleaned on board and than bagged before I even get to the dock. Most times I’m in and on the trailer driving away before a creel guy even knows I’m there. As you say most hang out st the cleaning tables.
Not blaming anyone, but as you say it all counts.
I stiil believe a larger allocation is needed along with educating the public on how the whole thing works. That includes educating them that this has nothing to do with conservation as this has already been taken care of.
Searun another great reason the numbers get flawed. All my fish are cleaned on board and than bagged before I even get to the dock. Most times I’m in and on the trailer driving away before a creel guy even knows I’m there. As you say most hang out st the cleaning tables.
Not blaming anyone, but as you say it all counts.
I stiil believe a larger allocation is needed along with educating the public on how the whole thing works. That includes educating them that this has nothing to do with conservation as this has already been taken care of.
Gong Show
Well-Known Member
I know one of the guys in the airplane and he told me his video equipment is so good that he can tell how much beer is left in that can sitting on the deck so I think they can count how many are onboard.
I would hope so. Those guys on the flight charter fly so low over Cape Mudge they must be trying to get the last sip of my lucky!
bigbruce
Crew Member
Interesting. I've been spending at least a month in the summer at Alder Bay for the past 6 years. Whenever a creel surveyor is on duty there, he/she is down on the dock meeting boaters as they come in. He/she asks a series of questions including how long on the water, the species targeted and the catch, if any. He/she completes a form for every interview. I can only assume, based on your comment, Searun that the six different creel surveyors I've run into over the past six years have been far more conscientious about their jobs than the ones you've encountered.
I was one of those Area 19 guys saying we don't catch Hali in June. I will repeat three of the reasons listed by Gord Martin of Foghorn Charters as to why we CAN NOT fish for Hali in June, here they are:
June has some of the largest currents in the year. There are 8 days where you can get a line to the bottom for more then 2 hours. No other fishery in the coast, except near maybe Malcom Island is so current bound for halibut fishing. Hence, we don't target them heavily. This is not a problem in Port Renfrew, Bamfield, Tofino, Uclulet, Kuyuqot, or anywhere on WCVI. In fact, several of the guides in area 19/20 will not book in June just because of this! Myself, and Wolf included. Yep. We turn down $700 because the currents suck that bad.
We have outbound migration of dogfish. There is near zero effort for halibut fishing in June, as the dogfish can be maddening. We have excellent Creel data, as there are 4 very busy ramps, Cattle Point, Esquimalt Anglers, Pedder Bay, and James Bay. There are not a lot of halibut coming in then.
Area 19 and 20 are also unique, becuase it is about the only place you can catch a halibut in sheltered waters. For the 10K pounds our fishery consumes (Based on creel data), it allows possibly the largest amount of recreational effort in sheltered water with the least amount of catch. You don't get a lot of guys in 17 footers targetting Halibut in Nootka Sound. That 10K of quota gives us a 3 month season, enjoyed by rubber tire anglers, not the lodges and guides that dominate the rugged, off shore halibut areas of WCVI/QCI. 10K of quota is enjoyed by hundreds of anglers for three months, as catch success is very slim unless one really knows what they are doing in the JDF. 10K pounds of Quota keeps 16 guides going for 3 months, not 2 days as on WCVI.
My argument was that if a late start is to benefit the bulk of the coast, in my eyes it opens up a can of worms making it preferential for lodges and guides only to target halibut, as the South Island Area is probably the best bet to find them in anything less then a 21 foot boat (The Bulk of private boats are smaller). We are about the best bet for sheltered water fishing, and our impact is the least based on the number of rod hours versus fish taken, as most boats take up a skunk. Our impact on rockfish/yellow eye is also zero, as I have not seen on in JDF in a very long time. That's another big wild card for our halibut fishery. We have near zero bycatch. No orange pumpkins floating around our boats as we are anchored on our rock piles.
This could drive a wedge between guides and recreational anglers, and have them be licensed differently, a road that we do not want to go down. I think that road would be very easy, as I was at the meeting in 2009 with Minister Shea, setup by Chris Bos. 10 minutes into the meeting, she asked the group, made up mostly of guides, if ITQ's would help our fishery. Yep, thats right, before the first cup of coffee, her first answer was ITQ's, the very system that is the root of the problem for fair halibut access.. That says to me, that the powers that be consider the rec fishery to be more of a pain to manage, then a smaller commercial fleet, which would then deny everyone who lives on the coast a chance to enjoy the fishery without paying a guide to do so. Think PEI Tuna....
It may be time to have halibut manged based on areas on the coast. Based on the bulk of the taken happening in June-Aug, perhaps pulse openings would be the answer? Every other day in August. That way, all the lodges that championed a 2 fish posession limit to increase stays would get an extra day! Business would be better. After all, it makes more sense to throw water on the hottest part of the fire (Prime Time), then shoulder seasons. Would also stop those pesky Area 19/20 guys from the hali slaughter that apparently happens during those monster currents in JDF.
So how to educate the sport fisherman to seek out the creel person to report accurately especially if they haven't retained a halibut. This is very important if they are being count in the fly over boat count as retaining halibut.
This another good reason to have a information booth at the up coming sport fishing shows.
1. Inform the masses about the unfair halibut allocation.
2. Educate WHY it is important to report to the creel survey whether they retain a halibut or not.
Guide log book. This is animal in it's self.
I think the lodges do well to report their catch unfortunately some independent guides do not follow suit with the log books.
IREC? Is the same as the fishing BC app that SFI have a link to on their website? I just signed up to this app but there is no option to report NO CATCH on an outing only kept option or released option I think this is an important option to report also.
wolf
Well-Known Member
Thanks Kelly couldn't say it better(been sitting back getting more pissed off ) getting tired of certain people on here BLAMING our area , hope you all realize our take in area 19/20 in 3 months is 1 day on the westcoast , someone PLEASE post the % i recall something like 2.5 2.3 and 2.9 % over those 3 months then july when everyone out there like 29 % of our TAC.
Some people who have never fished here dont get it we can only fish between the new moon and the full moon so basically 10 to 12 days in a month of more than a 3 or 4 hour window in GOOD spots.out of which your NOT going to get out on all of them because of weather this is not BS this is a fact....what we take is a FART in a strong windstorm. But thats ok we are getting numb to most of this as our area.IT is the hardest hit in the province for restrictions ...... Some on here are bullies in a playground picking on a weaker group.......
Also everyone is coming up with all these new found ideas ....news flash they are not new instead of sitting behind a keyboard attend the meeting id say all of these ideas your coming up with HAVE been discussed at length and determined sometimes not feasible...Sorry if you really want go to a meeting be prepared with questions and write it all down so you dont forget anything, forward a motion PUT your hand up and be heard.... then it will get discussed and put into motion ANYONE can forward a motion BUT you have to attend.....
if you want ill take you out on a questionable "current" day for ***** and giggle so you can see a 60 inch scotman go under.
and before you ask Am i happy No not really after dealing with DFO for almost 35 years I do know one thing for sure when you LOSE something they will never give it back its the way they work. just look at coho never been the same... but this is a halibut thread so ill stick to that.....
Wolf
Some people who have never fished here dont get it we can only fish between the new moon and the full moon so basically 10 to 12 days in a month of more than a 3 or 4 hour window in GOOD spots.out of which your NOT going to get out on all of them because of weather this is not BS this is a fact....what we take is a FART in a strong windstorm. But thats ok we are getting numb to most of this as our area.IT is the hardest hit in the province for restrictions ...... Some on here are bullies in a playground picking on a weaker group.......
Also everyone is coming up with all these new found ideas ....news flash they are not new instead of sitting behind a keyboard attend the meeting id say all of these ideas your coming up with HAVE been discussed at length and determined sometimes not feasible...Sorry if you really want go to a meeting be prepared with questions and write it all down so you dont forget anything, forward a motion PUT your hand up and be heard.... then it will get discussed and put into motion ANYONE can forward a motion BUT you have to attend.....
if you want ill take you out on a questionable "current" day for ***** and giggle so you can see a 60 inch scotman go under.
and before you ask Am i happy No not really after dealing with DFO for almost 35 years I do know one thing for sure when you LOSE something they will never give it back its the way they work. just look at coho never been the same... but this is a halibut thread so ill stick to that.....
Wolf
SpringVelocity
Crew Member
Thanks Roy and Kelly. You guys nailed it. I too think those numbers are out of bizarre on the June take especially. Most of us don't fish June-August for halibut in that area at all.
Just to highlight there is nothing wrong with saying things are broken, and you want to fix it etc. But when you simply complain and offer no solution to get in there how is going to change? Like every year I really wish people would just do what they say on this forum. Look at SVIAC you may disagree with their policies and say it is in South Coast etc but at least those guys did it. They didn't sit back and wait.
SFAB is not going to do that lobbying. Your asking to have an advisement process as a lobby group. That is reason why SVIAC, and others formed. SFI is good group to support, and so is BCWF. If you want to form your own united group that's great. Any of those groups would support you, and more the merrier.
The long term solution? We need boots on the ground person in Ottawa lobbying on our behalf. The big picture is more percentage. Don't know how we are going to get there but it is something that needs to happen. Just my thoughts...
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T
The Jackel
Guest
Your are right a guide i know got nailed in the closed zone in Renfrew, they sent him the picture you could see the line coming from the end of the rod right into the water, oh and the dumb look on his face was pricelessI know one of the guys in the airplane and he told me his video equipment is so good that he can tell how much beer is left in that can sitting on the deck so I think they can count how many are onboard.
searun
Well-Known Member
All I'm saying is there is something very, very wrong with the catch reporting. I believe you when you say there is no way we caught 900 fish in Area 19 in the month of June, unfortunately DFO's numbers do not agree. Their numbers are what matters.
I keep hearing the word "accountability" and lets "fight for more TAC". Some of the answers rest in our hands....Log Books gents. If you completed Log Books, those catch numbers in June would be different. Until we get on that program, the numbers won't change. I'm not blaming the creel people either. I have seen how the errors happen so easily in a big marina. The surveyor can't be everywhere, so they hang out at the cleaning tables.
The only reason I used the Area 19 example is it was the most obvious one where we know there is a problem - it is obvious, but so too is the solution which is clearly in our control if we want to bother doing log books. So don't get pissed off, understand the point being made and do something about it.
Oh ya, I do come down and Fish Area 19...see you in a few weeks.
I keep hearing the word "accountability" and lets "fight for more TAC". Some of the answers rest in our hands....Log Books gents. If you completed Log Books, those catch numbers in June would be different. Until we get on that program, the numbers won't change. I'm not blaming the creel people either. I have seen how the errors happen so easily in a big marina. The surveyor can't be everywhere, so they hang out at the cleaning tables.
The only reason I used the Area 19 example is it was the most obvious one where we know there is a problem - it is obvious, but so too is the solution which is clearly in our control if we want to bother doing log books. So don't get pissed off, understand the point being made and do something about it.
Oh ya, I do come down and Fish Area 19...see you in a few weeks.
