Gun Control in US and Canada

[tincan]

English, I just glanced over at CNN about an hour ago and they had a gun shop owner on saying that the biggest problem in america today is that people are losing their fear of god. He is not alone in his opinion either as you note. I have nothing against anyone who wants to believe any religion/spirituality so long as it's kept to yourself and not used in determining laws, policy, etc. Unfortunately, that is not the case in our world today. The Enlightenment supposedly occurred hundreds of years ago but many parts of the world (US and Canada included) still allow these superstitions to dominate/take part in determining our way of life. Looking forward to the days when science and reason actually guide our policy. The world will be a much better place when that happens.

The people that believe in these kinds of conspiracy theories are themselves mentally ill and paranoid to the max. Very scary that these are the most rabid pro-gun proponents.

Funny how so often these are the same people that believe that the 'lord is going to send armageddon" and there will be a "rapture" to save the "believers".

Belief in these "prophets" without a shred of evidence is the most dangerous force at work in the world today. Indeed a glance at history will tell you this has always been the case. It is just now the nut bars can access far more dangerous weapons than the sword, and bows and arrows of the past, and propagate their mad ideas to their "followers" much more quickly than formerly.

 

[Seafever]

Is a "right" untouchable?

Up here in Canada it ain't. While the CC gives you the 'right" to freedom of expression and opinions/views. there are some things you simply cannot say or express.
"Hate Crime" trumps rights and has been effectively executed on numerous occasions.

Books have been banned. Movies have been banned.

The only way some of have got around it is through the use of "Artistic license".

Either you have a right to express your thoughts (regardless of how factual or vitriolic they may be)...or you don't.

We don't.

So up here...a document guaranteeing "rights' is by no means a defacto ironclad guarantee of anything.

 

[Seafever]

Maybe they should change the name of the North American continent to "Narcissia".

Are people so in love with themselves that any perceived slight to their character requires all-out maniacal revenge?

Back in the day when there was a schoolfight, it was just two guys who had at each other and when it was finished it was over.
Nowadays the loser will return with an army of friends and possibly kill the original combatant.

See this all the time on the news with people that are refused entry into bars for being drunk etc., shootings etc. etc.
mallshoppers, schoolfights......

What the hell...is their fragile little ego so important that they can't see they were wrong and can't "man up" to their own faults?

I don't even want to get started on "religion".....some churches that profess being Christlike and "turning the other cheek" are now offering guns as "sign-up" incentives.

Were Christ alive today, I'm sure the apostles would be packing Mac 10's.........

 

[Saxe Point]

I am not an expert on past gun laws in Canada but I do know they were pretty lax at one time.

I don't think one could say that they were ever lax. I posted earlier setting out some court decisions that reviewed the history of Canadian gun control and it was always quite restrictive, dating back to the turn of the century and earlier. It has only become stricter going forward.

 

[Englishman]

English, I just glanced over at CNN about an hour ago and they had a gun shop owner on saying that the biggest problem in america today is that people are losing their fear of god. He is not alone in his opinion either as you note. I have nothing against anyone who wants to believe any religion/spirituality so long as it's kept to yourself and not used in determining laws, policy, etc. Unfortunately, that is not the case in our world today. The Enlightenment supposedly occurred hundreds of years ago but many parts of the world (US and Canada included) still allow these superstitions to dominate/take part in determining our way of life. Looking forward to the days when science and reason actually guide our policy. The world will be a much better place when that happens.

Amen (irony intended) to that!!

 

[Englishman]

As the wagons are already circling in opposition. Wyoming just signed into Law a Bill that will give up to two years in prison to any Federal Agent that tries to enforce any newly imposed federal gun laws. Arizona and Texas are expected to follow suit today.

Oregon & Texas issued a Warning to Obama against enforcing new gun regulations: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/15/ore-sheriff-says-wont-enforce-new-gun-laws/

Minnesota Sheriff's Department also notes they will not enforce the new laws: http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/event/article/id/255814/

And... Texas Republican Rep. Steve Stockman threatened Monday afternoon that he would file articles of impeachment against President Barack Obama if he institutes gun control measures with an executive order: http://www.alipac.us/f12/gop-congre...ama-uses-executive-action-gun-control-270396/

Given this type of resistance, is there ANY Chance of EVER instilling the type of common sense gun controls we have up here in Canada?
Going to be a long, uphill battle methinks...

Nog
​

Wow...WOW! Some of these moves are truly demonstrating the fanatical (aka quasi-religious) opposition to any form of gun control.

It is truly stunning how some people can justify destructive opposition to any cause, however reasonable.

I am currently watching the PBS series "The Abolitionists". It is fascinating and horrifying how hundreds of thousands of citizens, all over N.America, and especially in the South violently supported a brutal institution like slavery. And they all professed to be church going, god fearing folk too!!

Eventually, Federal laws began to be passed and the "slave states" reacted by passing their own counter laws and threatening secession. Of course this is what they ended up doing and the civil war resulted.

Perhaps we are seeing the beginnings of a new secession movement over gun control and maybe a civil war!! In which case "uphill battle" is an understatement and the "lord's armageddon" will then be truly a self fulfilling prophecy!!

 

[Gunsmith]

You are catching on, we in Canada can rationalize, where in the US they cannot they just fight it out with guns or weapons. We form a peace keeping force that uses persuasion before arms and they send in the troops and kill the problem.

Wow...WOW! Some of these moves are truly demonstrating the fanatical (aka quasi-religious) opposition to any form of gun control.

It is truly stunning how some people can justify destructive opposition to any cause, however reasonable.

I am currently watching the PBS series "The Abolitionists". It is fascinating and horrifying how hundreds of thousands of citizens, all over N.America, and especially in the South violently supported a brutal institution like slavery. And they all professed to be church going, god fearing folk too!!

Federal laws began to be passed and the "slave states" reacted by passing their own counter laws and threatening secession. Of course this is what they ended up doing and the civil war resulted.

Perhaps we are seeing the beginnings of a new secession movement over gun control and maybe a civil war!! The "lord's armageddon" will then be truly a self fulfilling prophecy!!

 

[lorneparker1]

I civil war is defintely a possibilty(not likely but possible), keep infringing on peoples rights, and people will be upset. We are seeing uprising against Governements more and more. Has everyone forgot about Syria? Egypt? Nope cant happen here... Us conservatives, want less governement not more. Whether you agree or not, This is being as much bigger the banning a certain gun. That is where it starts. Its for the same reason we fight to keep the grizzly hunt alive. There is no science that stopping that hunt will do anything but make a few people that have never been in the bush feel better about them selves. The same people that have absolutely no idea about guns feeling good about banning guns. And sooner or later people are not going to take it anymore. And if and (when) that happens, maybe some can throw rocks or use a sling shot.

Lorne

 

[Englishman]

I civil war is defintely a possibilty(not likely but possible), keep infringing on peoples rights, and people will be upset. We are seeing uprising against Governements more and more. Has everyone forgot about Syria? Egypt? Nope cant happen here... Us conservatives, want less governement not more. Whether you agree or not, This is being as much bigger the banning a certain gun. That is where it starts. Its for the same reason we fight to keep the grizzly hunt alive. There is no science that stopping that hunt will do anything but make a few people that have never been in the bush feel better about them selves. The same people that have absolutely no idea about guns feeling good about banning guns. And sooner or later people are not going to take it anymore. And if and (when) that, maybe some can throw rocks or use a sling shot.

Lorne

Lorne

Lorne, you have muddled up several issues here and some totally different geopolitical situations.

What I will say is the "slave states" kept spouting the same justifications about "citizen rights", "legal under the constitution", "slave owner rights' and "states rights" and "we are not going to be told what to do any more" when it came to slavery. Those advocating the brutal subjugation of human beings used the same twisted, immoral logic!! Funny that isn't it?!

 

[lorneparker1]

Lorne, you have muddled up several issues here and some totally different geopolitical situations.

What I will say is the "slave states" kept spouting the same justifications about "citizen rights", "legal under the constitution", "slave owner rights' and "states rights" and "we are not going to be told what to do any more" when it came to slavery. Those advocating the brutal subjugation of human beings used the same twisted, immoral logic!! Funny that isn't it?!

What i will say, is if you dont have people saying " FACK YOU THAT IS NOT OK" to the government history has shown the government will take over. I also find it amusing that ALOT of the people on this thread ar SO AGAINST the government privatizing the stuff in our oceans because we have a RIGHT to these fish, prawns, crabs etc. ( which i believe as well) yet this is some how different because it doesnt fit into thier agenda. Any way to 2 groups ( anti vs pro gun) groups are so far part on this (as this thread as shown, we will never find a middle ground.

 

[Degree of Freedom]

I refuse to get involved in this one!

Lorne

I guess this ship has sailed? lol

 

[lorneparker1]

I guess this ship has sailed? lol

Its like a gruesome car crash, you know you shouldnt look, but you just cant pull yourself away from it!

Lorne

 

[Seafever]

Is the "right to bear arms" also the right to "pack and carry"?

A favorite argument of pro-gunners is the right to own arms for defense.

However...the AR-15 you have (or any other weapon) locked up at the house isn't going to do you much good when you're under fire at the mall or some other place and you don't have it handy.

Therefore it seems that the pro-gunners next request will be the "right to pack" concealed or not.
I'm sure the NRA would like everyone to have shoulder holsters worn daily with a big gun in it.
Why was the shotgun an illegal weapon in the VietNam era US army?

The Second Amendment gives the right to bear arms.
To pro-gunners this is the only right that matters.

In other parts of the US Charter Of Rights you have "the right to pursue life , liberty and happiness".
If happiness is owning a style of gun that can fire 180 rounds-plus a minute or more......good for you.
But there are others out there whose idea of "happiness" is to be able to walk the streets without fear of being mowed down by waves of bullets.......
So their rights are as important as other U S rights.


Are fire-arms in the hands of civilians a good idea in terms of being able to defeat a corrupt government?

Well actually it has happened and is happening right now.

Look to the Middle East. Several countries over there have toppled their governments with nothing but armed civilians.

And there is the Afghanistan Muja Hadeen, who, bankrupted the Russian Army and forced them to leave.

However, as we all know, most of the arms these "civilians " were/are using were supplied to them by other countries who had a major investment in the outcome.


Note to NRA nuts in Washington:------ of course Obama's children have armed guards. All president's and their children have had guards. (To protect them from nutballs who you'd allow to carry guns) And if a president is put in power that somehow got elected solely because of the NRA's influence........he too will have armed guards for him, his wife and kids....





This gun control situation is like being stuck in a large field up to your knees in cowsh*t.....and no matter where you look it goes to the horizon....

 

[searun]

Sorry if this was already posted, but came across this today and it pretty much sums up some of the views expressed in this thread.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KvO-8IvoCI

Enjoy!

 

[Sculpin]

There are a lot of people that have been packing concealed in the States for many many years now. Texas I believe has always been open carry. My understanding is open carry permits have become very popular in the last few years in many other States. I have read about quite a few confusing situations with LEO's stopping folks walking around with pistols on their side.

I don't know about shotguns being illegal for the US army during the Vietnam War. They were used quite a bit during that war. They have been used in every major conflict since their inception.

I agree that it seems the NRA wants every single person to be packing. Kind of like the Coke ceo who said they won't stop until their is a vending machine on top of Mt. Everest. It's all about the almight buck. Sad but true.

 

[Seafever]

Hmmm....I was of the understanding that shotguns could not, for some reason, be used by the army in Viet Nam.

Maybe I'm totally wrong......

 

[Seafever]

Does the "concealed carry" permit contain a clause that exonerates you from blame if your weapon is used to commit an offence by another person?

example:----A person is carrying a concealed pistol under his jacket with the safety "off"....because.....well....if he has to respond instantaneously to a threat he hasn't got time to mess around looking for the safety lock.
He gets mugged by a guy who comes up behind him, put him in a choke hold and reaches inside the guys' jacket looking for a wallet but finds a gun.
He takes the gun. Another bystander witnesses the event close by. The robber holds both hostage for their wallets and while escaping fires at both people , hitting the bystander fatally and killing him. The original gun owner is not hurt.

Can the gun owner be held accountable in any way?

 

[Gunsmith]

These were shotguns used during the vietnam war by US roops.
[QUOTEThe shotguns were used as an individual weapon during jungle patrol; infantry units were authorized a shotgun by TO & E (Table of Organization & Equipment). Shotguns were not general issue to all infantrymen, but were select issue, such as one per squad, etc.
Winchester Model 1912 pump-action shotgun was used by the Marines during the early stages of the war.
Ithaca 37 pump-action shotgun replaced every other shotgun in the field and armed the United States Marine Corps throughout the war.
Remington Model 870 pump-action shotgun used by the Marines Special Operations Weapon a modification for a Remington 870 which made it fully automatic

Remington 11-48 semi-automatic shotgun used by the Marines in small quantities
Winchester Model 1897 used by the Marines during the early stages of the war, but was later replaced by the Ithaca 37
Stevens Model 77E, pump-action shotgun used by Army and Marine forces in Southeast Asia. Almost 70,000 Model 77Es were procured by the military for use in SE Asia during the 1960s


=Seafever;268729]Hmmm....I was of the understanding that shotguns could not, for some reason, be used by the army in Viet Nam.

Maybe I'm totally wrong......[/QUOTE]

 

[Seafever]

Was there ever a country that had guns and then banned them?

Yes..actually.....

The Japanese around the end of the 1800's /early 1900's had guns.......but their warriors and government thought that the Samurai sword was more "manlier" and dropped guns in favor of the sword at that time.

Not a good decision it turned out.......

 

[Seafever]

Searun:....yep, but that's a fictionalized t.v. account....and on just about every t.v. show where a gun is involved they talk too much.

There was once a Clint Eastwood movie where a guy in a bathtub is about to be shot by another guy that comes in the room. The guy in the bathtub shoots him with a gun that was concealed by bathbubbles, while the intruder is busy talking.
His famous quote from the movie......."If you're gonna talk, talk. If you're gonna shoot,shoot."