Guide licensing

[searun]

A bit of speculation going on within this thread. Firstly, DFO isn't the governance agency - it is Transport Canada.

Here's a link to the Small Commercial Vessel requirements (below) - spells out very clearly what a small commercial vessel operator is required by law to do. Includes annual safety self inspection and modifications to vessels to comply with safety regulations. Many production vessels will not comply unless modified.

Compliance to the regulations costs time and money - beware of those fly-by-night operators, many of whom have cut corners resulting in less than safe operating practices. I'm sure they are great guys with good intentions - but, they don't know what they don't know!

Consumers should insist on only chartering operators and vessels that display the Transport Canada Safety blue decal. Another way to know that your Charter captain has all their safety training certificates up to date is to ask to see if they are also a CTAG certified guide. Cheap charters are all fun and games until something goes wrong. A properly trained and equipped vessel and operator can be the difference when responding to unanticipated emergencies - or more importantly - having the training and experience to avoid them!

Link:

Small Commercial Vessel Safety Guide - TP 14070 E (2010)

tc.canada.ca

Here's the blue decal to look for:

 

[ab1752]

The blue decal needs some serious marketing support from Tourisim BC so travelers know what to look for.

 

[profisher]

The blue decal needs some serious anti UV Ray coating so the blue and print stays on it for more than one year out of the five each is valid for. My last ones were just white blank squares after 1 year. Asked for a replacement and never got one.

 

[Peahead]

You can go to the SFI's website and search by geographic area for CTAG Guides - look for the red CTAG logo.. https://sportfishing.bc.ca/ctag/

Hi Pat, I am aware you know this but just to point out for others that unless things have changed from back when I was guiding several years ago, CTAG was/ is as far as I know still an optional certification. Originally introduced and offered as a bonus certification for guided fishing etiquette/customer service, fish ID etc etc but not a required safety certification like those required by TC and needed to guide legally or to operate a small commercial vessel with passengers legally. At the time of introduction of the CTAG it was especially marketed to and a benefit to the new young guides with some hours of experience but fairly new to guiding. It took a while later to get the more experienced guides interested and to see the benefits of promoting yourself and business as having the CTAG certification. Just a bit of background as I recall it when it rolled out.

Under the now old TC CDN number, the SVOP, MED A2/A3, MROC certifications and up to date Marine 1st Aid are required by TC . The CDN was a good way to keep track of your certifications so not sure why they were phasing it out. The CTAG certification is required by some businesses if you want to work for them but that is up to the private company such as fishing lodges or those charter operations hiring guides. I feel the CTAG as a great asset to have so not diminishing its value. I definitely think it is an excellent promotional tool. The logo displayed on a business site or social media for promotional reasons will for sure attract attention and add value but just wanted to clear up that without a CTAG the guide operators are still TC certified. Operator boats of course must also be commercially licenced and TC certified as others have mentioned.

Now my 2 cents on how to enforce the guiding illegally. Essentially we already have the infrastructure that produces a licence for a guide so the issue as others have pointed out is the enforcement. I tend to agree with others that have suggested its about informing all potential clients. Have information on how to choose a guide on your promotional material. Write articles, have info at sports/fishing shows/marinas etc . I feel that information on safety certifications and insurance should be a big part of the information a customer can get easily if they are deciding what boat/guide to hire. VALUE ADDED.... you might pay a bit more but you are investing in that VALUE!

 

[Rain City]

Hi Pat, I am aware you know this but just to point out for others that unless things have changed from back when I was guiding several years ago, CTAG was/ is as far as I know still an optional certification. Originally introduced and offered as a bonus certification for guided fishing etiquette/customer service, fish ID etc etc but not a required safety certification like those required by TC and needed to guide legally or to operate a small commercial vessel with passengers legally. At the time of introduction of the CTAG it was especially marketed to and a benefit to the new young guides with some hours of experience but fairly new to guiding. It took a while later to get the more experienced guides interested and to see the benefits of promoting yourself and business as having the CTAG certification. Just a bit of background as I recall it when it rolled out.

Under the now old TC CDN number, the SVOP, MED A2/A3, MROC certifications and up to date Marine 1st Aid are required by TC . The CDN was a good way to keep track of your certifications so not sure why they were phasing it out. The CTAG certification is required by some businesses if you want to work for them but that is up to the private company such as fishing lodges or those charter operations hiring guides. I feel the CTAG as a great asset to have so not diminishing its value. I definitely think it is an excellent promotional tool. The logo displayed on a business site or social media for promotional reasons will for sure attract attention and add value but just wanted to clear up that without a CTAG the guide operators are still TC certified. Operator boats of course must also be commercially licenced and TC certified as others have mentioned.

Now my 2 cents on how to enforce the guiding illegally. Essentially we already have the infrastructure that produces a licence for a guide so the issue as others have pointed out is the enforcement. I tend to agree with others that have suggested its about informing all potential clients. Have information on how to choose a guide on your promotional material. Write articles, have info at sports/fishing shows/marinas etc . I feel that information on safety certifications and insurance should be a big part of the information a customer can get easily if they are deciding what boat/guide to hire. VALUE ADDED.... you might pay a bit more but you are investing in that VALUE!

I could have sworn I made the note, and then got the question right on the test, that the program is in fact optional.

 

[fishin_magician]

Guide licensing was brought up at our Sfac meeting by DFO.

In the Vancouver area and Nanaimo they are having real issues with guys taking out like 10 people. Everyone on board has 1 day licences and they all have their limits of crab, lingcod, rockfish and prawns.

They are going out everyday and just pillaging everything said they are turning some areas back 30 years.

They claim they are not guiding but it’s pretty obvious all 1 days licenses and different people every day.

Yep. Mostly out of Richmond. They got run off Granville Island a few years ago.

 

[fishin_magician]

Let's face it guides need to make an income to support their business
but $1200 a day is more than most can afford.
That's why there are unqualified operators as they see an opportunity.
I know boats cost money and don't run on air, I have one.

The problem is there is no enforcement. Paying people in government jobs who know their stuff is expensive and you have to hunt the peeps down and then give them enforcement authority. Politicians only go where the wheels squeak.

 

[Unreel]

To clear a couple things up. The blue decal program is also optional and not required for your C numbered commercial vessel, as well as the ctag program.

 

[profisher]

To clear a couple things up. The blue decal program is also optional and not required for your C numbered commercial vessel, as well as the ctag program.

Yup and with the online (harder to fill out) forms now to get that optional decal many are opting out.

 

[Aces]

Hi Pat, I am aware you know this but just to point out for others that unless things have changed from back when I was guiding several years ago, CTAG was/ is as far as I know still an optional certification. Originally introduced and offered as a bonus certification for guided fishing etiquette/customer service, fish ID etc etc but not a required safety certification like those required by TC and needed to guide legally or to operate a small commercial vessel with passengers legally. At the time of introduction of the CTAG it was especially marketed to and a benefit to the new young guides with some hours of experience but fairly new to guiding. It took a while later to get the more experienced guides interested and to see the benefits of promoting yourself and business as having the CTAG certification. Just a bit of background as I recall it when it rolled out.

Under the now old TC CDN number, the SVOP, MED A2/A3, MROC certifications and up to date Marine 1st Aid are required by TC . The CDN was a good way to keep track of your certifications so not sure why they were phasing it out. The CTAG certification is required by some businesses if you want to work for them but that is up to the private company such as fishing lodges or those charter operations hiring guides. I feel the CTAG as a great asset to have so not diminishing its value. I definitely think it is an excellent promotional tool. The logo displayed on a business site or social media for promotional reasons will for sure attract attention and add value but just wanted to clear up that without a CTAG the guide operators are still TC certified. Operator boats of course must also be commercially licenced and TC certified as others have mentioned.

Now my 2 cents on how to enforce the guiding illegally. Essentially we already have the infrastructure that produces a licence for a guide so the issue as others have pointed out is the enforcement. I tend to agree with others that have suggested its about informing all potential clients. Have information on how to choose a guide on your promotional material. Write articles, have info at sports/fishing shows/marinas etc . I feel that information on safety certifications and insurance should be a big part of the information a customer can get easily if they are deciding what boat/guide to hire. VALUE ADDED.... you might pay a bit more but you are investing in that VALUE!

Thank you for explaining the background of the c-tag program. I never bothered with it

 

[profisher]

Just curious because I'm not 100% sure ...but does not the C-Tag come with an annual fee to keep it? Not a one time fee once you pass? I think I heard it was annual. Obviously I never bothered as I was one of the first to go through the TC hoops when first introduced. At 65 years old next year I'm not expecting to be doing this long term now. Maybe just 1 more over 50 pound Chinook and go out on a high note!!! lmao

 

[fishin_magician]

Just curious because I'm not 100% sure ...but does not the C-Tag come with an annual fee to keep it? Not a one time fee once you pass? I think I heard it was annual. Obviously I never bothered as I was one of the first to go through the TC hoops when first introduced. At 65 years old next year I'm not expecting to be doing this long term now. Maybe just 1 more over 50 pound Chinook and go out on a high note!!! lmao

Yeah. You have to renew it each year. . FWIW, I challenged it-did the multiple choice and oral examination and walked out 20 minutes later with a pass and a tax deductible receipt for like $1000 or something. I have done marketing for a few different companies in different industries and 95% of prospective guests don’t pay any attention to CTAG, Blue Decals or anything of the sort. Having to pay for the continued representation is BULL. Personally, I can’t say CTAG or blue decal sold any more charters than without.

 

[IronNoggin]

I still haven't received data and that was probably 10 plus years ago now. They were done in alcohol filled vials which aren't used anymore. It was 2-3 years after I collected the samples that I had the chance to ask Wilf at a meeting about them. That is when he said they were still on the shelf. I get the need for data but it goes both ways. If you want something for free and someone agrees to do it...honour the deal.

Same thing occurred when we collected DNA samples for both coho & chinook WCVI - sampling the troll fleet caught fish.
DFO decided they liked the pulled out of the air ratios they had come up with rather than science, and shelved literally thousands of samples.
Never to see the light of day again.

Just one more example of both their ineptitude and their agenda...

 

[profisher]

Yeah. You have to renew it each year. . FWIW, I challenged it-did the multiple choice and oral examination and walked out 20 minutes later with a pass and a tax deductible receipt for like $1000 or something. I have done marketing for a few different companies in different industries and 95% of prospective guests don’t pay any attention to CTAG, Blue Decals or anything of the sort. Having to pay for the continued representation is BULL. Personally, I can’t say CTAG or blue decal sold any more charters than without.

So annual renewal fee means it is a method of revenue for SFI. Same thing in the Fire Service industry for those who have to take the ASSTBC certification to operate in some jurisdictions in BC. Thankfully the lower Island fire departments decided not to require this as they saw it as a money grab with an annual fee to keep your credentials.

 

[Derby]

These are strange remarks and not accurate – TAG is a lifetime certificate, SFI CTAG membership is free for the first year and then has annual dues but they are less then regular dues. It seems like folks have forgotten that the whole idea of the guide certification was to provide something like a Red Seal Chef designation for tidal water/boat based fishing guides. Establishing a certification with and by industry incorporated the legal requirements of Transport Canada and acknowledges the skills and experience of guides taking paying guests out on boat for a fishing trip. TAG is a way to distinguish professional and legal guides from everyone else and should be viewed as an advantage for the credibility of the industry and as a marketing tool for individual guides. TAG or CTAG gives customers confidence and an easy way for them to understand that a guide is properly qualified and experienced. The TAG designation continues to allow anyone who gets it to receive a $1000.00 tax training credit so all the courses you had to take to be a legal guide are essentially paid for.

Launched in 2010, the SFI helped to develop the Tidal Angling Guide program with the Industry Training Authority, now Skilled Trades, Transport Canada and with working guides. TAG is a lifetime certificate, does not require renewal, and there are no annual fees. With the TAG designation in hand vessel owners can get significant liability insurance discounts and access policies specific to certified guides.

SFI CTAG is a membership category with the SFI and is only available to those who have acquired the TAG designation. It is not required or necessary to keep your TAG. The first year of your SFI CTAG membership is free. Then with the reduced $50.00 annual membership renewal fee, the SFI will maintain a copy of your certificates, advise when you need to update your MBFA, provide a free online directory listing, annual CTAG decals, and make a variety of benefits and services of the organization available. The Marine Basic First Aid expires and must be renewed every 3 to 5 years to operate legally according to Transport Canada regulations. A SFI CTAG membership will not be renewed if a valid MBFA is not provided.

The SFI continues to work on the sport fishing community’s behalf for predictable and reliable opportunities and access by promoting fishing in BC, coordinating and conducting fish and fishery research projects, and by advocacy with the Province and DFO here and in Ottawa. All funds raised by the SFI, a non-profit organization, whether from membership dues or fund-raising campaigns are dedicated to promoting, protecting, and enhancing sport fishing opportunities and access in BC’s tidal waters.

 

[profisher]

Derby thanks for the clarification, good that it comes from a source in the know. Can you please explain the roles the SFI can and cannot undertake when it comes to lobbying or advocacy as a group that receives government funding. Thanx

 

[Derby]

A little off the topic is it not for this thread? Happy to take this off line

 

[searun]

These are strange remarks and not accurate – TAG is a lifetime certificate, SFI CTAG membership is free for the first year and then has annual dues but they are less then regular dues. It seems like folks have forgotten that the whole idea of the guide certification was to provide something like a Red Seal Chef designation for tidal water/boat based fishing guides. Establishing a certification with and by industry incorporated the legal requirements of Transport Canada and acknowledges the skills and experience of guides taking paying guests out on boat for a fishing trip. TAG is a way to distinguish professional and legal guides from everyone else and should be viewed as an advantage for the credibility of the industry and as a marketing tool for individual guides. TAG or CTAG gives customers confidence and an easy way for them to understand that a guide is properly qualified and experienced. The TAG designation continues to allow anyone who gets it to receive a $1000.00 tax training credit so all the courses you had to take to be a legal guide are essentially paid for.

Launched in 2010, the SFI helped to develop the Tidal Angling Guide program with the Industry Training Authority, now Skilled Trades, Transport Canada and with working guides. TAG is a lifetime certificate, does not require renewal, and there are no annual fees. With the TAG designation in hand vessel owners can get significant liability insurance discounts and access policies specific to certified guides.

SFI CTAG is a membership category with the SFI and is only available to those who have acquired the TAG designation. It is not required or necessary to keep your TAG. The first year of your SFI CTAG membership is free. Then with the reduced $50.00 annual membership renewal fee, the SFI will maintain a copy of your certificates, advise when you need to update your MBFA, provide a free online directory listing, annual CTAG decals, and make a variety of benefits and services of the organization available. The Marine Basic First Aid expires and must be renewed every 3 to 5 years to operate legally according to Transport Canada regulations. A SFI CTAG membership will not be renewed if a valid MBFA is not provided.

The SFI continues to work on the sport fishing community’s behalf for predictable and reliable opportunities and access by promoting fishing in BC, coordinating and conducting fish and fishery research projects, and by advocacy with the Province and DFO here and in Ottawa. All funds raised by the SFI, a non-profit organization, whether from membership dues or fund-raising campaigns are dedicated to promoting, protecting, and enhancing sport fishing opportunities and access in BC’s tidal waters.

Well said. And...if you are a good operator, why would you not want to have all your training certificates up to date, and ensure that your vessel complies fully with the blue decal self inspection program? For me its not about marketing. Safety and trust for customers are the core reasons to have your CTAG and Blue Decal program up to date. Its just the right thing to do.

As for paying regular CTAG membership fees - why wouldn't I support the work of the SFI? Who else is working hard on behalf of both the recreational fishery and also advocating on behalf of tidal water guides and lodges? IMO, a very small price to pay to put something back into supporting the SFI so they can continue their work on our behalf. I don't see any other organizations trekking off to Ottawa 2 or more times a year to meet with various Ministers, MP's and senior DFO staff to advocate for recreational fishery opportunity. Money well spent.

 

[searun]

Same thing occurred when we collected DNA samples for both coho & chinook WCVI - sampling the troll fleet caught fish.
DFO decided they liked the pulled out of the air ratios they had come up with rather than science, and shelved literally thousands of samples.
Never to see the light of day again.

Just one more example of both their ineptitude and their agenda...

No data = no objective science-based way to avoid DFO defaulting to the "precautionary principle." Silly way of thinking IMO - the one thing we, as fishers, can do to help support our fishery is to continue to provide high quality fishery data.

Precautionary Principle​

The precautionary principle recognizes that in the absence of scientific certainty, conservation measures can and should be taken when there is knowledge of a risk of serious or irreversible harm to the environment and/or resources using best available information.

 

[profisher]

No data = no objective science-based way to avoid DFO defaulting to the "precautionary principle." Silly way of thinking IMO - the one thing we, as fishers, can do to help support our fishery is to continue to provide high quality fishery data.

Precautionary Principle​

The precautionary principle recognizes that in the absence of scientific certainty, conservation measures can and should be taken when there is knowledge of a risk of serious or irreversible harm to the environment and/or resources using best available information.

No one questions that good data makes for good science. I think fishers get that....politicians are oblivious and corrupt. This results in people dropping out and loosing interest. (especially those who fish just for a hobby and not a living) Let the science branch of DFO control the departments funds, make final decisions and things might improve.