Guide licensing

[searun]

Just like DFO that app is a complete joke we took a picture of a pink and it came up as 99.5 % chinook in the identifier ...FIRST then need to enforce WHAT they dont do ..monitor the non registered and non compliante guides that advertise and no certs etc UNTIL they do that good luck on anything else... we have at least 10 "new" guys with F all here in sooke undercutting and no experience..

I wouldn't judge the utility of the app to record catch based on early attempts to teach AI how to recognize fish....as for dealing with illegal guides, I think this is an emerging issue brought about by Transport Canada's failure to enforce the regulations they implemented - sort of makes a joke out of good guides who invest in vessel upgrades and training to do the right thing. Also says a lot about why guests should do some additional due diligence to make sure they are getting good value and safety from the experience before they book....also that they actually have Charter insurance that the insurer will stand behind when there is a claim.

Perhaps illegal guiding, & customer safety is a larger value than just collecting guide vessel catch data that will propel guide licensing forward? You raise an interesting and important point!

 

[wolf]

I agree Pat but half these guy probally dont even have insurance and people are looking for the CHEAPEST trip out many dont care as long as its cheaper then the "other guys" point is system is badly flawed it was supposed to be good back in day when it was the yellow decal now its a joke so go ahead start up a business use BC numbers and giver as there is zero enforcement up and down this coast

 

[profisher]

Its one of the initiatives being investigated under the PSSI (Pacific Salmon Strategy Initiative), shared with the SFAB by DFO over a year ago.

Work is underway to investigate options for developing a Guide Licensing framework - so we won't likely hear much more until those investigative efforts narrow down the mechanics necessary to design a few options that could be recommended for refinement (including public consultation). So likely a ways off for now, but as mentioned in SV's post, one of the drivers behind Guide Licensing was making completing Guilde Log Books as a condition of license similar to what the Commercial fleet now has - in this way, the Department can gather more robust catch data necessary to more effectively manage the recreational fishery.

As someone who was one of the first to enter the Log Book program and also volunteered to collect DNA samples when asked if I would do so....before anyone else was doing it. I found out a couple years later when I asked why that data had not been shared with as that was agreed to as condition of me collecting it in the first place. (I figured that would make it worth my time and effort to learn where certain timed runs come from with 100% certainty) I was told my 100 plus Chinook DNA were on a shelf unprocessed for lack of funds. I dropped out of the program on the spot. I was really into it at the time but it did take time and effort to do it properly. I was quite pissed to find out what happened.

 

[profisher]

I agree Pat but half these guy probally dont even have insurance and people are looking for the CHEAPEST trip out many dont care as long as its cheaper then the "other guys" point is system is badly flawed it was supposed to be good back in day when it was the yellow decal now its a joke so go ahead start up a business use BC numbers and giver as there is zero enforcement up and down this coast

Roy that is kinda of accurate....people will often go for the cheaper price...but that DOESN't mean they aren't prepared to and would pay more if the lower prices weren't offered. Those who operate at unsustainable prices not only leave money on the table for themselves, they screw everyone else in the area out of being able to charge an amount that keeps them on the water even when motors blow up or when a pandemic hits. If you go into business that business should support itself, a mortgage on your home and your family. If it doesn't...WTF are you doing? Probably preventing others from being able to!!!! I know other industries have the same issues but it is true in all cases.

 

[searun]

As someone who was one of the first to enter the Log Book program and also volunteered to collect DNA samples when asked if I would do so....before anyone else was doing it. I found out a couple years later when I asked why that data had not been shared with as that was agreed to as condition of me collecting it in the first place. (I figured that would make it worth my time and effort to learn where certain timed runs come from with 100% certainty) I was told my 100 plus Chinook DNA were on a shelf unprocessed for lack of funds. I dropped out of the program on the spot. I was really into it at the time but it did take time and effort to do it properly. I was quite pissed to find out what happened.

Sorry to hear that was your experience - although DFO waiting until they have the $ to process DNA isn't a lack of value that data will and did eventually bring to fishery management once they found the funds.

Those same DNA programs have continued on to this day, and are building a very comprehensive data set of stock composition, run timing in very specific fishery areas. They helped shape many of the successfully implemented MSF fishery opportunities. The idea being we can plan recreational fisheries that avoid stocks of concern because we learn through collecting data on which fish families are travelling through specific fishery areas at certain timing windows.

That is not to say that the Department isn't directed by their political masters from time to time to make a "political" decision that isn't necessarily well founded in science...that's what politicians do, and we shouldn't be too surprised by it. Conversely, withholding data such as DNA sampling only serves our detractors and feeds political decisions that fall back on the good old "precautionary principle" in absence of data. A real catch 22 - people need to think about it.

 

[profisher]

Sorry to hear that was your experience - although DFO waiting until they have the $ to process DNA isn't a lack of value that data will and did eventually bring to fishery management once they found the funds.

Those same DNA programs have continued on to this day, and are building a very comprehensive data set of stock composition, run timing in very specific fishery areas. They helped shape many of the successfully implemented MSF fishery opportunities. The idea being we can plan recreational fisheries that avoid stocks of concern because we learn through collecting data on which fish families are travelling through specific fishery areas at certain timing windows.

That is not to say that the Department isn't directed by their political masters from time to time to make a "political" decision that isn't necessarily well founded in science...that's what politicians do, and we shouldn't be too surprised by it. Conversely, withholding data such as DNA sampling only serves our detractors and feeds political decisions that fall back on the good old "precautionary principle" in absence of data. A real catch 22 - people need to think about it.

I still haven't received data and that was probably 10 plus years ago now. They were done in alcohol filled vials which aren't used anymore. It was 2-3 years after I collected the samples that I had the chance to ask Wilf at a meeting about them. That is when he said they were still on the shelf. I get the need for data but it goes both ways. If you want something for free and someone agrees to do it...honour the deal.

 

[tigerprawn]

Maybe they want to start using plastic tags for chinook and Halibut (one time use) that you receive when buying your yearly license

 

[fishin_magician]

Maybe they want to start using plastic tags for chinook and Halibut (one time use) that you receive when buying your yearly license

Great idea-bring that back for residents!

 

[eroyd]

Maybe they want to start using plastic tags for chinook and Halibut (one time use) that you receive when buying your yearly license

Been there, done that. Can't remember why it failed.

 

[profisher]

Been there, done that. Can't remember why it failed.

It failed because it wasn't popular and when the first DFO meetings were held to explain it...there were more people there to protest than the rooms could hold...so it spilled out into the parking lot. In Victoria anyway. Only lasted 1 or 2 years.

 

[tigerprawn]

Been there, done that. Can't remember why it failed.

Probably because the fisheries ministry never last the life cycle of a chinook salmon. It never had a chance

 

[Keith Brown]

I'm new to fishing and boating on the ocean, so I have no specific solutions to the problem of unlicensed/untrained/unsafe guiding. However I did start and run my own business for over 40 year's. In most lines of business there is opportunity for cheating/unethically operators to undercut those who abide by the prevailing rules and regulations. Even though Department of Fishers and Oceans and Department of Highways or other regulatory agencies may be under staffed or under funded I am certain if "they" were presented with detailed information on illegal guiding activities that enforcement actions would be undertaken. The key is finding "they" within a large bureaucratic department. I assure you that within DFO of DOT that there is an officer/s that would love some low hanging fruit to levy enforcement action against.

 

[Rain City]

I'm new to fishing and boating on the ocean, so I have no specific solutions to the problem of unlicensed/untrained/unsafe guiding. However I did start and run my own business for over 40 year's. In most lines of business there is opportunity for cheating/unethically operators to undercut those who abide by the prevailing rules and regulations. Even though Department of Fishers and Oceans and Department of Highways or other regulatory agencies may be under staffed or under funded I am certain if "they" were presented with detailed information on illegal guiding activities that enforcement actions would be undertaken. The key is finding "they" within a large bureaucratic department. I assure you that within DFO of DOT that there is an officer/s that would love some low hanging fruit to levy enforcement action against.

I like it. Like a crimsetoppers hotline but direct to the try-hard officers.

 

[Aces]

I'm new to fishing and boating on the ocean, so I have no specific solutions to the problem of unlicensed/untrained/unsafe guiding. However I did start and run my own business for over 40 year's. In most lines of business there is opportunity for cheating/unethically operators to undercut those who abide by the prevailing rules and regulations. Even though Department of Fishers and Oceans and Department of Highways or other regulatory agencies may be under staffed or under funded I am certain if "they" were presented with detailed information on illegal guiding activities that enforcement actions would be undertaken. The key is finding "they" within a large bureaucratic department. I assure you that within DFO of DOT that there is an officer/s that would love some low hanging fruit to levy enforcement action against.

Unfortunately DFO had no interest in this when this became a problem in Tofino about 20 years ago. We ended up getting the town to develop a strict criteria for this business via licensing and enforcement. That drove the fly by nighters elsewhere

 

[wildmanyeah]

Guide licensing was brought up at our Sfac meeting by DFO.

In the Vancouver area and Nanaimo they are having real issues with guys taking out like 10 people. Everyone on board has 1 day licences and they all have their limits of crab, lingcod, rockfish and prawns.

They are going out everyday and just pillaging everything said they are turning some areas back 30 years.

They claim they are not guiding but it’s pretty obvious all 1 days licenses and different people every day.

 

[Doug]

I know the frustration TC certified guides feel when there is no enforcement. Specially in the larger populated areas.

In the Sooke/Victoria areas there are numerous charter companies that run under the radar and have no TC vessel operator’s certifications, their vessels do not meet the TC standards and have no insurance.

Both Wolf and Pro and lots of others meet those TC requirements and carry the proper insurance whereas probably 25% do not. Covering your butt is the best way to go.

It appears to me to become a guide all you need is a boat, gear, and adverting. The only time it becomes an issue is if there is an accident and the operator must rely on insurance and a TC accident investigation (that is if TC are advised). You don’t need a GST number if you earn under $30K and any cash payments are not recorded, and Revenue Canada has no cross reference to TC.

There was a guy who was chartering for years, and he had moorage beside me, so I knew he went out and he went out a lot. He had no insurance at all on the vessel and he always said, “If I have an accident I have nothing to loss, take my boat or old truck”. He purchased a boat and gear, made up a cheap web site and charged $75 less than I did but people look at the price first, then the boat. When they got to the vessel it wasn’t the boat on his web site because “it was out of service (NOT), and this was his spare boat”. $75 less is not much when you consider 30 trips X $75 is only $2,250. My insurance is more.

I talked with TC about the issue, and they advised me that they do not have a budget to go to Sooke and inspect charter vessels. I asked, why you don’t go online and look up charter companies and see if you have them on file. I was also, advised by Sooke and Victoria that you do not require a business license, because you are fishing on Federal Gov property (tidal waters) and it is regulated by the Feds.

You can make all the rules you want but with no enforcement they mean nothing.

 

[SpringVelocity]

This was already discussed at our sfac. This is a long away from being implemented. Not really worth worrying over.

 

[kaelc]

I'm always happy to promote local guides at the dock when a tourist asks to be taken out and I had to tell my friend, who once did an unlicensed trip, Give your f....ing head a shake. In my business the unlicensed/uninsured/law breaking actors are everywhere despite me taking the screws to the BC Ministry responsible, they did go after a bunch that I served up but unless the fines are in tens or hundreds of thousands they don't cover the cost of enforcement or deter new bad actors from entering the game. Pricing at 50-30% of what I charge is common. Real business like our guides spend millions on local fishing stores, stores, mechanics, insurance companies, provide significant tax revue and deserve ever dam tip they get. If you need voices of support if additional licensing requirements affect you, I'm happy to be a pain in politicians backside. I'm currently slicing up House of Commons video to use their own slimey voices against them....but I digress.

Enjoy your quiet season, you have earned it.

PS. left a couple of 5 star google reviews for a couple of members today.

 

[ziggy]

Maybe a partial solution is to include the license held,any professional organization you’re a member of and the fact you’re insured in your advertising? Pretty common for other tradesmen. Will it stop everyone looking for a deal, likely not, but some folks will take note for sure.

 

[BC Coast Pilot]

I like it. Like a crimsetoppers hotline but direct to the try-hard officers.

Maybe a partial solution is to include the license held,any professional organization you’re a member of and the fact you’re insured in your advertising? Pretty common for other tradesmen. Will it stop everyone looking for a deal, likely not, but some folks will take note for sure.

The problem there is that the consumer does not know what they are looking at, or what is required. I have a Fishing Master class 3 certification, what does that mean? And no one likes a rat Jon.