Global Warming

"Also, how do you explain the parallel melting of the ice caps on Mars? I'm pretty sure I have not been driving my gas gussling SUV there any time recently."

How about you give us a legitimate link that shows this "parallel melting of the ice caps" you and a few others seem to think has something to do with what is happening here on Earth.
Here's a hint for you too......try to find one that explains the length of a Mars year compared to a year on Earth, that compares the atmosphere of the Earth to that on Mars, that comes up with something other than that which we have known for a century or better or any other thing related to Mars that actually relates to Earth.

Then you'll have something.

Right now all you have by spouting the "Mars icecap melting" story is a growing reputation for being extremely naive.

Take care.
 
Look, there is an incredible amount of information supporting global warming, and the vast vast majority of scientists believe it. There will always be a minority and they will always be putting out contradictory reports. I have neither the knowledge or resources to argue all of their points. If you want to believe the Bush administration, Fred Singer, Exxon, and the self-proclaimed greatest sea-level scientist in the world, rather than the alarming majority of far more credible scientists, that is your choice.

Sushi, I am pretty sure you are basing your argument on Martin Durkin's Great Global Warming Swindle. It is a very convincing documentary, I saw it last summer and was convinced at first. I told my sister about it and she mentioned it in her class (she is a teacher), and got a huge reaction of disgust and was told to check out the reviews. I also read them and was embarrassed that I actually believed this guy for a little while. His documentary is riddled with lies and misrepresentations. He has even been threatened with legal action by scientists who were lied to about the purpose of the film during their interview, and who's opinions and supplied information was used to the opposite effect it was provided for. One of the scientists, Christensen, provided the solar irradiance vs. temperature graph. Once he saw the film, he stated that the graph had been altered, especially in the last 20 years. There is no correlation between solar activity and temperature in the last 20 years - the data was fudged. Durkin even admitted it and said that the original line between 1980 and 2000 was too wiggly so they changed it. It doesn't get much more un-creditable than that. Here is a graph where the last 20 years are filled in and the graph is unaltered. A couple of points:

-in the late 1800's and 40's, the temp goes up while sun spots go down.
-60's solar activity does not alter temperature.
-Most importantly, the last 20 years, which Durkin omitted, have absolutely no correlation.

solar.png


Also, as far as the cause and effect goes regarding CO2 and temp. The relation accepted by most climatologists is based on whats called the milankovitch cycle of the earth's orbit. First, the earths orbit naturally changes such that the polar caps get more sun (temp up before CO2 goes up). This causes them to melt, which exposes more water and land. The water and land are darker thus absorb more heat and the caps recede even more. Since there is more heat being absorbed by the oceans, they heat up thus provide less solubility for CO2 and release some, which in turn causes more warming (globally - instead of just at the poles). So you can see, the temperature does goes up before CO2 levels and this is why. Also, the milankovitch cycle occurs on a 100,000 year cycle. If you look at this graph of temp vs. year, you can see there are warm periods all about 100,000 years apart. Also notice the current CO2 level compared to historical (its labelled in the top right corner).
tempvsyear.png


Aside from all the graphs and such, just think about the absolute basics. First, CO2 is a greenhouse gas, that is a fact. It was first proven in the late 1800's before any of this was an issue. Next, greenhouse gases play a role in keeping the planet warm - this is why mars is cold, it does not have an atmosphere. There is actually research on inducing global warming on mars to make it habitable, and guess what, the idea is to add fluorine to melt the ice caps, which will release CO2 and warm the planet. Anyways, CO2 is a greenhouse gas and that is a fact, and we are releasing lots of it and thats a fact - it has gone from 280 ppm to 380 ppm because of us - The absolute most fundamental facts in this discussion tell us that we are warming the planet. Don't let politics and agendas tell you otherwise.
 
On your last post, Mars DOES have an atmosphere, of guess what. 95% CO2!!! (Quoting WIKI and drawning from my limited interest in astronomy a few years ago)

It looks like we are just about on target for our warming cycle based on the graph you have provided.

Depending on who you ask, Nature releases 150-160 billion tonnes of CO2 per year, whereas Human activity releases 6-7 billion tonnes. So 2-3% of all carbon dioxide is release by Humans. Does not seem like we woule be even CAPABLE of the 40% increase you quote in your post.

I also have not heard anything from the Global Warming propenants on a much more effective greenhouse gas, yep, you guessed it, water vapour. Which, one would reason, could be produced in great abundance by heating the surface of the Earth, which, is %70 covered in the stuff. Here is a Wiki article with some very strong references to back it up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas
 
I don't know a tonne about mars, but from the article I read in New Scientist, apparently they need more greenhouse gases to make it habitable, and CO2 is the best idea they've got. My goal was to reinforce the argument of CO2 being a greenhouse gas, which is an undeniable fact.

look at that graph again - the milankovitch is on a 100,000 year cycle. you cannot look at it and say "looks like we're on target". I think you might have misread it - the x-axis is measured in thousands of years - that last temperature spike began not 20 years ago but 20,000 years ago, which is why a line cannot be seen connecting the far right end of the blue line to the red arrow at the top right indicating current CO2 levels, it happened in an instant. The graph simply illustrates the milankovitch cycle and how it governs temperature and CO2.

yes your right, we only add about 2% of the total CO2 emissions each year. however, there are natural effects that absorb the 98% of the natural emissions - these natural effects also absorb about half of our emissions. The other half keeps accumulating and that is what is shown when we say the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere has gone from 280ppm to 380ppm - that 100ppm difference is what we have added. This argument is mentioned in the wiki link you posted under Anthropogenic greenhouse gases, about a quarter of the way down. Humans adding CO2 to the atmosphere is generally not debated as it is pretty much a fact. Even anti-global warming people generally don't deny humans have added CO2 to the atmosphere. Again the graph shows the instantaneous jump in CO2 levels that we are responsible for. Given the last 650,000 years, it is clearly un-natural.

As far as water vapor goes - you answered your own question - it is not a cause, but an effect - temperature increases water evaporation and causes more global warming. Just like you said - heating up the surface will cause evaporation and more warming. Also, water does not accumulate in the atmosphere like CO2 does, it has a much shorter life span that returns to earth as rain frequently - this is all explained in the wiki article you posted. It is also explained in this article from New Scientist:

http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/climate-change/dn11652

That last link is quite good and answers many skeptical climate questions.
 
Just a bit more about the Mars thing that seems to show up on every thread remotely connected to the whole global warming/climate change topic:

Please read this and then for the love of all that is sacred take the Mars story and shove it right where it belongs.....it's pure bogus drivel.

Mars has an atmosphere less than 1% of Earths. It is very thin and very sparse, which is why we can see the surface of Mars so clearly.
The atmosphere of Mars is about 95% CO2 with tiny amounts of Nitrogen, Argon, Oxygen and a couple other gasses.
Yet, despite the high percentage of CO2, the mean temp on Mars is about -46 degrees celcius and it ranges from -87 to -5.
This is basically because the atmosphere of Mars is so miniscule it has no affect on the temps on Mars.
Also, the seasons on Mars are completely different from ours and I think, off the top of my head, that Mars is entering its Summer, when the CO2 gasses that make up the polar ice caps start to evaporate, or "melt". This seasonal event is well known and not a sign of any new global warming on Mars.
Nothing that happens on Mars has anything to do with what is happening on Earth.
And finally, does it ever occur to those of you who post stuff like the ice caps on Mars are melting and I'm not driving an SUV there or related stupidity ever think to check things out before just blindly making a post that makes you look like a complete idiot to anyone who HAS checked it out?

Stupid question I know, because the answer is obviously.......duh...........no.

Take care.
 
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23411799-7583,00.html

Climate facts to warm to
Christopher Pearson | March 22, 2008
CATASTROPHIC predictions of global warming usually conjure with the notion of a tipping point, a point of no return.

Last Monday - on ABC Radio National, of all places - there was a tipping point of a different kind in the debate on climate change. It was a remarkable interview involving the co-host of Counterpoint, Michael Duffy and Jennifer Marohasy, a biologist and senior fellow of Melbourne-based think tank the Institute of Public Affairs. Anyone in public life who takes a position on the greenhouse gas hypothesis will ignore it at their peril.
Duffy asked Marohasy: "Is the Earth stillwarming?"

She replied: "No, actually, there has been cooling, if you take 1998 as your point of reference. If you take 2002 as your point of reference, then temperatures have plateaued. This is certainly not what you'd expect if carbon dioxide is driving temperature because carbon dioxide levels have been increasing but temperatures have actually been coming down over the last 10 years."

Duffy: "Is this a matter of any controversy?"

Marohasy: "Actually, no. The head of the IPCC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change) has actually acknowledged it. He talks about the apparent plateau in temperatures so far this century. So he recognises that in this century, over the past eight years, temperatures have plateaued ... This is not what you'd expect, as I said, because if carbon dioxide is driving temperature then you'd expect that, given carbon dioxide levels have been continuing to increase, temperatures should be going up ... So (it's) very unexpected, not something that's being discussed. It should be being discussed, though, because it's very significant."

Duffy: "It's not only that it's not discussed. We never hear it, do we? Whenever there's any sort of weather event that can be linked into the global warming orthodoxy, it's put on the front page. But a fact like that, which is that global warming stopped a decade ago, is virtually never reported, which is extraordinary."

Duffy then turned to the question of how the proponents of the greenhouse gas hypothesis deal with data that doesn't support their case. "People like Kevin Rudd and Ross Garnaut are speaking as though the Earth is still warming at an alarming rate, but what is the argument from the other side? What would people associated with the IPCC say to explain the (temperature) dip?"

Marohasy: "Well, the head of the IPCC has suggested natural factors are compensating for the increasing carbon dioxide levels and I guess, to some extent, that's what sceptics have been saying for some time: that, yes, carbon dioxide will give you some warming but there are a whole lot of other factors that may compensate or that may augment the warming from elevated levels of carbon dioxide.

"There's been a lot of talk about the impact of the sun and that maybe we're going to go through or are entering a period of less intense solar activity and this could be contributing to the current cooling."

Duffy: "Can you tell us about NASA's Aqua satellite, because I understand some of the data we're now getting is quite important in our understanding of how climate works?"

Marohasy: "That's right. The satellite was only launched in 2002 and it enabled the collection of data, not just on temperature but also on cloud formation and water vapour. What all the climate models suggest is that, when you've got warming from additional carbon dioxide, this will result in increased water vapour, so you're going to get a positive feedback. That's what the models have been indicating. What this great data from the NASA Aqua satellite ... (is) actually showing is just the opposite, that with a little bit of warming, weather processes are compensating, so they're actually limiting the greenhouse effect and you're getting a negative rather than a positive feedback."

Duffy: "The climate is actually, in one way anyway, more robust than was assumed in the climate models?"

Marohasy: "That's right ... These findings actually aren't being disputed by the meteorological community. They're having trouble digesting the findings, they're acknowledging the findings, they're acknowledging that the data from NASA's Aqua satellite is not how the models predict, and I think they're about to recognise that the models really do need to be overhauled and that when they are overhauled they will probably show greatly reduced future warming projected as a consequence of carbon dioxide."

Duffy: "From what you're saying, it sounds like the implications of this could beconsiderable ..."

Marohasy: "That's right, very much so. The policy implications are enormous. The meteorological community at the moment is really just coming to terms with the output from this NASA Aqua satellite and (climate scientist) Roy Spencer's interpretation of them. His work is published, his work is accepted, but I think people are still in shock at this point."

If Marohasy is anywhere near right about the impending collapse of the global warming paradigm, life will suddenly become a whole lot more interesting.

A great many founts of authority, from the Royal Society to the UN, most heads of government along with countless captains of industry, learned professors, commentators and journalists will be profoundly embarrassed. Let us hope it is a prolonged and chastening experience.

With catastrophe off the agenda, for most people the fog of millennial gloom will lift, at least until attention turns to the prospect of the next ice age. Among the better educated, the sceptical cast of mind that is the basis of empiricism will once again be back in fashion. The delusion that by recycling and catching public transport we can help save the planet will quickly come to be seen for the childish nonsense it was all along.

The poorest Indians and Chinese will be left in peace to work their way towards prosperity, without being badgered about the size of their carbon footprint, a concept that for most of us will soon be one with Nineveh and Tyre, clean forgotten in six months.

The scores of town planners in Australia building empires out of regulating what can and can't be built on low-lying shorelines will have to come to terms with the fact inundation no longer impends and find something more plausible to do. The same is true of the bureaucrats planning to accommodate "climate refugees".

Penny Wong's climate mega-portfolio will suddenly be as ephemeral as the ministries for the year 2000 that state governments used to entrust to junior ministers. Malcolm Turnbull will have to reinvent himself at vast speed as a climate change sceptic and the Prime Minister will have to kiss goodbye what he likes to call the great moral issue and policy challenge of our times.

It will all be vastly entertaining to watch.

THE Age published an essay with an environmental theme by Ian McEwan on March 8 and its stablemate, The Sydney Morning Herald, also carried a slightly longer version of the same piece.

The Australian's Cut & Paste column two days later reproduced a telling paragraph from the Herald's version, which suggested that McEwan was a climate change sceptic and which The Age had excised. He was expanding on the proposition that "we need not only reliable data but their expression in the rigorous use of statistics".

What The Age decided to spare its readers was the following: "Well-meaning intellectual movements, from communism to post-structuralism, have a poor history of absorbing inconvenient fact or challenges to fundamental precepts. We should not ignore or suppress good indicators on the environment, though they have become extremely rare now. It is tempting to the layman to embrace with enthusiasm the latest bleak scenario because it fits the darkness of our soul, the prevailing cultural pessimism. The imagination, as Wallace Stevens once said, is always at the end of an era. But we should be asking, or expecting others to ask, for the provenance of the data, the assumptions fed into the computer model, the response of the peer review community, and so on. Pessimism is intellectually delicious, even thrilling, but the matter before us is too serious for mere self-pleasuring. It would be self-defeating if the environmental movement degenerated into a religion of gloomy faith. (Faith, ungrounded certainty, is no virtue.)"

The missing sentences do not appear anywhere else in The Age's version of the essay. The attribution reads: "Copyright Ian McEwan 2008" and there is no acknowledgment of editing by The Age.

Why did the paper decide to offer its readers McEwan lite? Was he, I wonder, consulted on the matter? And isn't there a nice irony that The Age chose to delete the line about ideologues not being very good at "absorbing inconvenient fact"?
 
Here's a little lesson on how effective the denial group is at disseminating the BS they do.
Note the date on the article posted here. It's March 22, or three days ago.
I just had a look at four of the several sites I check each day and look at what I found.

Same story posted at FishBC.


http://fishbcforum.com/index.php?showtopic=50315

Same story posted at this site.

http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=65048

Same story posted at this site.

http://forum.surfermag.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1339292&an=0&page=0&gonew=1#UNREAD

And , of course, it has now been posted here.

One article posted at literally hundreds of sites around the internet and pretty soon it takes on a life of its own.....true or not. Three days and it's everywhere, much like the dumbass opinion pieces written by Lorne Gunter and/or Lawrence Solomon in the National Post that immediately show up on discussion boards all over the place, posted by people who seem clueless about what the National Post prints or not.
It's so predictable to me now that I find it only mildly amusing any more. I used to laugh my butt off too. You guys are ruining all my fun.
And I'm so confused now too that I can't decide if it's the farting cows, the farting Moose or the farting Caribou that are causing the Arctic to melt or if it's all just a figment of some computer modellers imagination. sigh....

What's a poor wandering minstrel to do?

Take care.
 
Well I sure a hell got the opinions and facts or near facts that I went looking for and now am more confused than ever , this load of material will take some digesting I can see , but one thing does stand out in my mind and that is the winters and weather patterns are warmer than when I was a kid , but that is only over the 60 years or so that I can begin to remember.

Tks all for your input one way or the other.

AL
 
A-Cat:
quote:but one thing does stand out in my mind and that is the winters and weather patterns are warmer than when I was a kid , but that is only over the 60 years or so that I can begin to remember.

You're not allowed to say that - you are not a scientist! ;)
 
You guys missed telling about the real cause of global warming... the domesticated cow. They say..and I think someone actually got paid to count the farts..that cow flatulence is the main cause of global warming. strange but true:) Anyone who has walked through a cow pasture dodging the cow sh*t has seen the evidence..I don't think there is a graph associated with the stats but if there is I am sure it would be... a pie graph:D:D:D
 
Things change. 10,000 years ago Victoria was covered in a sheet of ice and I don't think the ancient aboriginal SUV was to blame !
 
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