Conservation Measures for Northern and Southern BC Chinook Salmon and Southern Resident Killer Whale

[ziggy]

At some point rec fishers SHOULD realize that the fact that many of us operate our SONAR's at 50 Khz which interferes with eco-location indicates the rec-fisher closures make good scientific sense. That said, I firmly believe the whale harrasers are a major problem and should be restricted as are the rec fishers. I believe they will give the "rec fisher only" option 5 or more years before considering further measures.

I’m not sure that the average rec sonar actually impacts the whales echolocation. It appears to be in a different frequency range and I suspect too low of power to cause much interference. I’d be interested to see if any actual study has been done?

 

[Che]

people that work for these large ENGO's that their main purpose is to generate donations and to stay employed.

This is how the majority of NGO's work. Their goal is to be financially self sustaining. Give us money to advance our cause, part of that cause is to raise more money to support our cause, which we use to generate more money to support our cause.... People give a buck or two, feel good about themselves and maybe get a bumper sticker or some other token that people can use to virtue signal with on social media.

Just attacking the science or an engo is not a credible strategy in my view.

These NGOs are using emotional piquing propaganda to advance their anti-pipeline agendas. Why are SRKW's getting hungry? Because there aren't enough salmon. Why aren't there enough salmon? Several reasons. What caused that? We don't know entirely. Where these NGO's stop in this chain is the next obvious question, What can we do to enhance salmon stocks and ensure a steady food supply for SRKWs and everyone else who wants fish? That's where they fall short, because they aren't actually interested in enhancing salmon.

It shouldn't be #savethewhales, it should be #feedthewhales. The Pacific Salmon Foundation (an NGO i support) released a video the other day soliciting donations to support eel grass planting. Those efforts help feed the whales. Just one example of genuine things that can be done to #feedthewhales. With more food, the whales are happy and fat. Then there's lots of fish for everyone and all this silly internet chatter about sport fishing being shut down all becomes moot.

 

[IronNoggin]

“If you look at how many chinook are returning to the Fraser River right now, no one should be fishing – no one,” Taylor said.

DFO once again turns a blind eye to the best science available, flounders madly about striking at the easiest targets, and continues on it's merry pursuit of race based fisheries annihilations...

Makes ya want to PUKE!

Nog

 

[IronNoggin]

The name of this new organization is Seal Impact.

Thank you Sir!
Contact initiated, and I may well attend that meeting.

Have a Great Day!!

Cheers,
Nog

 

[wildmanyeah]

DFO once again turns a blind eye to the best science available, flounders madly about striking at the easiest targets, and continues on it's merry pursuit of race based fisheries annihilations...

Makes ya want to PUKE!

Nog

I don't think DFO can legally stop the netting without shutting down the whole ocean to recreational fishermen, that includes C&R. Thanks to the series of supreme court rulings, Allocation Policy and a favorable federal liberal government.

Basically DFO would have to guarantee that not one Early Fraser Chinook would not be caught in any other fishery at any stage of its life. The courts have put DFO into a loose/loose situation.

I can't think of many examples of DFO ratcheting back FSC fisheries, Sockeye is the only one that comes to mind, Even then they were still aloud to keep incidentally caught sockeye in their Chinook fisheries.

The courts have doomed the stocks, Stomp on DFO all you want but there's a few judges will all the blood on their hands.

 

[GLG]

Fellas ..... what is the goal and what strategy are you going to use to attain that goal. In my view attacking engo or whale watchers brings us no closer to what we want changed.
Here is an analogy. Say we are going deer hunting. Does it make sense that if we just pull over onto the side of the road and take out a 50 cal and blast away at the forest in hopes that we get a deer? Unless you just want to blast the forest with a 50 cal for fun and create maximum damage you're not likely to reach your goal.

 

[Whole in the Water]

I don't think DFO can legally stop the netting without shutting down the whole ocean to recreational fishermen, that includes C&R. Thanks to the series of supreme court rulings, Allocation Policy and a favorable federal liberal government.

Basically DFO would have to guarantee that not one Early Fraser Chinook would not be caught in any other fishery at any stage of its life. The courts have put DFO into a loose/loose situation.

I can't think of many examples of DFO ratcheting back FSC fisheries, Sockeye is the only one that comes to mind, Even then they were still aloud to keep incidentally caught sockeye in their Chinook fisheries.

The courts have doomed the stocks, Stomp on DFO all you want but there's a few judges will all the blood on their hands.

Good point WNY. That's why we need to stop all this waste of time, divisive, finger-pointing, in-fighting between ourselves and other groups that support the rec sector, and unite and agree that the best solution in the short and long term is to work on getting more Chinook in the ocean and returning to spawn.

Bottom line: all fishing sectors and related businesses need more salmon to prosper (including orcas). In the short term more sea pens and hatcheries can help fill the gap in low salmon numbers (especially to feed the orcas). In the long term we need to better manage whole watersheds to sustainably increase naturally spawning salmon populations.. Granted this will be long and hard to do but it must happen if future generations are to experience and enjoy salmon on this coast like we have.

 

[ziggy]

Unfortunately another analogy might be. Say we’re going deer hunting, pull over to the side and read a book hoping a deer will drop dead in front of us. I think the frustration here is that nothing is getting done,and doing nothing is no longer an option. Face it there are organizations that will never be happy until the whole country, other than where they live, becomes a Park. There are others that see selling some form of romantic image of nature as their personal cash cow ,that needs to be exploited.

Not all the NGO’s are self serving, but for many raising donations by exploiting real or perceived problems, is how they subsist and for many that’s the underlying principle. Get paid to cruise the Coast, observe whales and bears, how cool is that? Make no doubt we nasty fishers and hunters, are the enemy ,or at least a focal point to tug on the emotional heartstring on the urban population and extort guilt money.

In my opinion, meekly doing nothing like most rule abiding, tax paying citizens are prone to do, got us into this mess. I don’t know that doing nothing to avoid offending others is much of an option anymore.

 

[agentaqua]

I’m not sure that the average rec sonar actually impacts the whales echolocation. It appears to be in a different frequency range and I suspect too low of power to cause much interference. I’d be interested to see if any actual study has been done?

great questions and observations, ziggy! The sound intensity also has an impact. I think whales/marine mammals can also get accustomed to some sounds.

Humpbacks talk in the 100-350Hz range; but can hear in the 30-8,000Hz range. Toothed whales (e.g. orcas) have best frequency of hearing between 80 and 150 kHz and maximum sensitivity between 40-50 dB - but can hear in the 80-25,000Hz range; often talking in the 6,000-12,000Hz range. Seals, on the other hand typically have a high-frequency cutoff in their underwater hearing between 30 and 60 kHz, and maximal sensitivity of about 60 dB; but listen in the 100-40,000Hz range.

What about the sound sources - intensities and frequencies?

Sounders typically operate in the 50-200KHz range; or 50,000 to 200,000Hz range at 250-500Watts. Not sure how watts translate into dBs; but 140dB = 100watts/m2 - and the sound is radiated downwards towards the bottom in a narrow cone of 10-20 degrees. It wouldn't be too many meters below the boat when the sound energy decreases exponentially - and more importantly - The frequency is far above most marine mammals hearing ability.

A zodiac/outboard transmits sound in the 5000-6,300Hz range at ~150dB at source; while a tanker 100-225Hz range at ~180dB at source. SOURCE: Richardson et al. (1995). https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/book/9780080573038

A 195dB noise at source will be attenuated to ~129dB at 2km in the ocean; a 180dB noise will generate a response from marine mammals at 5km, but be undetectable within background noise at ~45km.

 

[wildmanyeah]

Good point WNY. That's why we need to stop all this waste of time, divisive, finger-pointing, in-fighting between ourselves and other groups that support the rec sector, and unite and agree that the best solution in the short and long term is to work on getting more Chinook in the ocean and returning to spawn.

Bottom line: all fishing sectors and related businesses need more salmon to prosper (including orcas). In the short term more sea pens and hatcheries can help fill the gap in low salmon numbers (especially to feed the orcas). In the long term we need to better manage whole watersheds to sustainably increase naturally spawning salmon populations.. Granted this will be long and hard to do but it must happen if future generations are to experience and enjoy salmon on this coast like we have.

This is the only play we have left besides the nuclear option (aka call for an end to recreational salmon fishing and to get FN Net's the out of the water).

If their was a scale of 1-10, 1 being fishing all we want and 10 being the nuclear option, were probably 8 or 9 on that scale right now.

 

[ziggy]

great questions and observations, ziggy! The sound intensity also has an impact. I think whales/marine mammals can also get accustomed to some sounds.

Humpbacks talk in the 100-350Hz range; but can hear in the 30-8,000Hz range. Toothed whales (e.g. orcas) have best frequency of hearing between 80 and 150 kHz and maximum sensitivity between 40-50 dB - but can hear in the 80-25,000Hz range; often talking in the 6,000-12,000Hz range. Seals, on the other hand typically have a high-frequency cutoff in their underwater hearing between 30 and 60 kHz, and maximal sensitivity of about 60 dB; but listen in the 100-40,000Hz range.

What about the sound sources - intensities and frequencies?

Sounders typically operate in the 50-200KHz range; or 50,000 to 200,000Hz range at 250-500Watts. Not sure how watts translate into dBs; but 140dB = 100watts/m2 - and the sound is radiated downwards towards the bottom in a narrow cone of 10-20 degrees. It wouldn't be too many meters below the boat when the sound energy decreases exponentially - and more importantly - The frequency is far above most marine mammals hearing ability.

A zodiac/outboard transmits sound in the 5000-6,300Hz range at ~150dB at source; while a tanker 100-225Hz range at ~180dB at source. SOURCE: Richardson et al. (1995). https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/book/9780080573038

A 195dB noise at source will be attenuated to ~129dB at 2km in the ocean; a 180dB noise will generate a response from marine mammals at 5km, but be undetectable within background noise at ~45km.

Well certainly not scientific, I have never noticed Whales vacate an area due to recreational fishing boats being present. In fact I have often ended up pulling my lines and moving off as they cruised through an area being relatively heavily fished. Not what one who expect if fishfinders were an issue for them. Broadband noise like that from larger ships or fast movers tends to be low frequency caused by props and tends to travel longer distance ( kind of like being in a noisy room)and I suspect it is more of a problem by raising the ambient sound level.

I feel the directionality of the sound transmission, relative low power and frequency of the transmission seems to make this a minor issue. I question if mutual interference between the whales and fishfinders is even an issue. This may be an instance where assumption are made based on what best fits the desired outcome..

 

[Whitebuck]

Just heard from a guide who talked to one of the Albion boats...and they have been instructed by DFO not to report what they are actually catching. Because DFO does not want to see opening s for the rec guys.
I will go down to Albion tomo and try to see if this is true.

 

[oldtimer]

The Seal Impact Movement organization is potentially the most powerful lobby group that we have ever had to date and given a chance they will make some significant changes to the way our fishery is managed in the future.. How come so few of you have contacted Ken Pearce? If you chose not to support this organization please quit belly aching and bitching about what is going on with our fishery and plan to take up golf or another sport or keep your irrelevant comments and opinions to yourself.

 

[terrin]

The Seal Impact Movement organization is potentially the most powerful lobby group that we have ever had to date and given a chance they will make some significant changes to the way our fishery is managed in the future.. How come so few of you have contacted Ken Pearce? If you chose not to support this organization please quit belly aching and bitching about what is going on with our fishery and plan to take up golf or another sport or keep your irrelevant comments and opinions to yourself.

Googled " Seal Impact Movement" and nothing came up.

 

[oldtimer]

I gave you the email address and the phone number of Ken Pearce a Co-Chair of Seal Impact in a recent previous post, so please contact him and give him your support.

 

[cohochinook]

The name of this new organization is Seal Impact. Co-Chairs of this movement are Ken Pearce and Chief Roy Jones Jr of the Haidas. They are very well informed and very well organized and their next meeting is going to be held on June 20th at the Nanaimo Convention Center starting at 8:30 AM. I know that Ken would love to hear from you and he can be reached at kpearce1@telus.net or you can give him a call at 1-604-839-7756.

Thanks Oldtmer. I reached out to Ken this evening to learn more.

 

[Aces]

 

[ericl]

I’m not sure that the average rec sonar actually impacts the whales echolocation. It appears to be in a different frequency range and I suspect too low of power to cause much interference. I’d be interested to see if any actual study has been done?

Research has been done - it's the 50 Khz frequency. This was already debated a couple months ago with the Smoke area guides promising to not use 50 Khz.

Well certainly not scientific, I have never noticed Whales vacate an area due to recreational fishing boats being present. In fact I have often ended up pulling my lines and moving off as they cruised through an area being relatively heavily fished. Not what one who expect if fishfinders were an issue for them. Broadband noise like that from larger ships or fast movers tends to be low frequency caused by props and tends to travel longer distance ( kind of like being in a noisy room)and I suspect it is more of a problem by raising the ambient sound level.

I feel the directionality of the sound transmission, relative low power and frequency of the transmission seems to make this a minor issue. I question if mutual interference between the whales and fishfinders is even an issue. This may be an instance where assumption are made based on what best fits the desired outcome..

Sorry but I think the fisheries scientists get my vote on this

 

[ziggy]

Research has been done - it's the 50 Khz frequency. This was already debated a couple months ago with the Smoke area guides promising to not use 50 Khz.



Sorry but I think the fisheries scientists get my vote on this

Can you provide a link to the research data? I’m interested in what the “fisheries scientists” used as measurables for acoustic interference. Not saying they are wrong, but would sure like to see how they worked the Sonar Equation ,determined Figure of Merit, determined range, mutual interference etc.

 

[california]

I don't think DFO can legally stop the netting without shutting down the whole ocean to recreational fishermen, that includes C&R. Thanks to the series of supreme court rulings, Allocation Policy and a favorable federal liberal government.

That is really the heart of the issue. We can complain about netting of Chinook in the Fraser all we want, and it is extremely harmful, but as long as there is a sport fishery for Chinook heading to the Fraser on the coast the natives have confirmed (several times in the highest court) right to fish. The hierarchy of fishing rights has been clearly established in the courts, Its Native Food &Ceremonial, Sport, Commercial. Starting next year on WCVI due to the recent court case (and it will be extended everywhere, by 2020) it will be Native F&C, Native Commercial, Sport, Commercial. Politically and legally DFO hands are tied. Legally the only way they can shut down Fraser FN netting is to shut down all sport fishing for chinook. By 2020 it will be much worse as much more will have to be allocated to FN before Sport. For now they do what they can, which is to reduce the largest user of the resource, and reduce Sport removal. Politically they wont take the heat that a Sport and Commercial shutdown coast wide would entail, and unfortunately is probably needed in order to also stop the netting. Therefore with native netting continuing, and the sport take continuing to be significant, the stocks will continue to be over exploited, and reductions will just follow the decline until we get into an east cost cod fishery situation.