Chinook Salmon- eyesight range

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I have heard that the chinook salmon have very poor eyesight with a range of about 5feet, and they rely more on lateral line and other instincts to feed and avoid dangerous encounters.
Should you have any information on this it would be appreciated.
Thanks
 
Salmon have excellent eyesight; however, they are near-sighted. They also have a very acute sense of smell and can hear. Without getting into environmental conditions/effects and just talking about the SALMON ‘senses’ there are three that are important and in this order - vibration (hearing), sight, smell and again, all three are important.

Salmon have no ears, but they do have ear parts and they can indeed hear, but not like us. Feel free to turn on all the radios you want, as loud as you want unless you have an underwater speaker. LOL They are first drawn by the vibrations picked through the lateral line, which sends the signals to the ear parts and that equates to hearing. A flasher creates vibrations, which the salmon hear drawing them to that noise (predominantly sounds like baitfish).

Now your eyesight comes into play. The distance underwater visibility is limited, so far-distance vision is of no use to a salmon, but close to the bait… you bet they can visually see it! Size, shapes, and colors all start coming into play. Match the hatch!

Salmon also have a very keen sense of smell, but salmon do NOT follow a scent trail like a halibut. Smell is the third and least of the senses involved, which (IMHO) unless there is a 'bad' scent, scent has little to do with any SALMON feeding (bite). And yes, the environment does! Once the salmon is drawn to and attracted by the bait - it will strike and will do it out of instinct! Again, unless that bait has a bad scent, then they will avoid it like the plague! Especially is it smells like… Jelly Fish and gasoline!

Smell comes into play and is the predominant factor migrating back to natal waters. The smells of a river and/or watershed are "stamped" into a salmon's brain. The salmon makes a scent memory and uses that to navigate home.


DSC01311-1-2.jpg
 
Thanks Charlie for your explanation.
I have s bet with a good friend that the visability is about 5 feet or so when they get close to the bait.
Do you think I am close??? lol
 
I have read that salmon have an incredible sensible sense of smell which is demonstrated by the fact that they can smell their natal river water in incredible small concentrations in the approaching stretches of the ocean.
 
I would say the eye sight is much further than 5ft. I have had salmon following a lure without flasher from quite a distance and depth. One could argue they 'felt' the lure's action more than they saw it but given salmon go for bucktails and other flies without much wiggle and action I tend to believe they can see quite far - if I had to guess a number I'd say 100' easily (given the visibility is there).
 
OK, Thanks again Chris. Guess I will have to suck it up on the bet.lol
 
quote:Originally posted by acedave3


OK, Thanks again Chris. Guess I will have to suck it up on the bet.lol
Well, I never would have made that bet to start with! You can win on a technicality? Salmon can NOT see five feet – down! They can NOT see down at all down! :D

You are going to have a hard time finding any reference or studies done on the distance a salmon can see – good luck on that one! I really haven’t researched how far a salmon can see - I've had no need, but you are probably closer to the figure than the 100 feet number? I'd be asking for a qualified reference before paying that bet off? :D

FYI… salmon very much can sense a bucktail or fly 30-35 feet away through its lateral line, but I don’t really think it will be seeing it, until much closer... that gets back to they are near-sighted! Think about that salmon striking out if instinct in a fast moving glacier river, where they can’t see six inches!
 
OK i had to laugh at this staement charlie not that im going to debate you on it... just an observation

quote:Especially is it smells like… Jelly Fish and gasoline!

But what about all the years ol charlie white did the thing of dipping his lures into his "blidge water" christ he even marketed it im sure there was gas and oil and whatever in that bottle or all the people who like to pollute the ocean by spraying down there bait with wd-40, all that stuff is petrolum based.

Me personally all that stuff is a gimmick, if you have convidence in what knows what has worked for you before than it will work again and the ultimate the fish have to be biting there could be 100 of fish below your boat but if there not feeding chances are your not going to get them !!!!!
If we only knew what triggers a bite hey guys????? thats what we really have to figure out.

My guess is fish can see for quite a long distance depending on the clarity of the water when you see your clip going down to 40 ft im sure they can see that far as well if not more,and i do believe they can see colors as well or why else would the diferent species of fish not be so colorful????.

MY thought for the morning LOL

Good luck Wolf

Blue Wolf Charters
www.bluewolfcharters.com
 
You will catch more fish with your gear above them rather than below.
My 2c.
Do they see up better than down?
 
Looking up, the lure/bait will be silhoutted (sp?) against the bright surface. Better to be too shallow than too deep
 
Charlie,

I believe that your information about fish sense of smell in feeding and strikes might need reexamining. There have been numerous scientific studies in contolled environments that conclude the exact opposite. Studies have shown that scent detection can be be up to 85% of the method of determining feeding behaviour. These studies have been done in both SW and FW environments.

This is why bait bans are so prevalent in B.C rivers and lakes.
 
quote:Originally posted by wolf

OK i had to laugh at this staement charlie not that im going to debate you on it... just an observation

quote:Especially is it smells like… Jelly Fish and gasoline!
Nothing to debate, put a Jelly Fish on and/or soak the bait in gasoline, and let me know how many salmon you catch! When “flossing” for non-feeding salmon in an estuary, it doesn’t matter what your bait smells like! LOL
quote: My guess is fish can see for quite a long distance depending on the clarity of the water when you see your clip going down to 40 ft im sure they can see that far as well if not more,and i do believe they can see colors as well or why else would the diferent species of fish not be so colorful????.
Salmon can very much see color? They can also see those dots Nog puts on his lures! LOL

But, when it comes to sight… start reading! :)
That '5 foot' number is closer than you think? Salmon have a window they can see in and they can NOT see like us! I really didn’t want to get into a debate about a salmons sight, but they are very much “near-sighted”. The can see VERY well to about five feet or so, then things start going downhill quickly! There have been all sorts of studies done over the years and they are old, have fun trying to find them!

These do pretty much some it up though:
quote: “Salmon have three sensing mechanism they use to find their prey. They are sight, smell and lateral line response. If you are trolling and your lure passes within a few feet of a salmon and he sees it, you will probably catch him. The problem is that in the ocean and most other bodies of water the salmon can't see more than four or five feet. The water is too murky. If you are relying on sight alone, you probably won't bring home many salmon.

The third sensing mechanism is the one you want working for you. Down a salmon's side and on his head and back there are tiny hair-like projections called cupula. Each of these has a nerve cell at the end. These cells are used to pick up vibrations in the water. If a salmon is swimming thirty feet down and a school of baitfish swims across the surface above him, he knows exactly what's going on. His lateral line cells pick up the vibrations made by the wiggling tails of the baitfish. He doesn't see them or smell them but he knows exactly where they are. If some of them are wounded and swimming erratically he knows he has his next meal. This is the mechanism you want to take advantage of. If your lure is putting out erratic vibrations twenty or thirty feet from a salmon you can pull him like a magnet. He will follow the vibration like a radar beam and attack your bait. This is why we say action on your bait or lure is the most important strategy you can use”
http://www.protroll.com/books/?id=2&p_id=2

quote: A diving plug decked out as prescribed on three levels: the visual, the nasal and the aural. Because salmon are both bottom huggers and quite nearsighted, capable of seeing little beyond three feet in front of them, a large flashy plug stands the best chance of getting the fish's attention. The salmon's second (if not first) most important sense is probably smell. Lab tests have shown that salmon can detect dissolved substances in concentrations as low as one part per 100 million. Besides masking human scent, sardine oil enhances the salmon's already keen smell-o-vision. Finally, there's the disturbance factor. A big plug throbbing through the water emits low-frequency vibrations- subtle auditory signals that are picked up by receptors along the salmon's lateral line.
http://www.alaskakingsalmon.com/article.html
quote: Since salmon are nearsighted they have to always use low frequency sound waves to find food in far away places.
http://library.thinkquest.org/3881/Factsaboutsalmon.html
http://cybersalmon.fws.gov/salmon facts.pdf



quote:Originally posted by finaddict

Charlie,

I believe that your information about fish sense of smell in feeding and strikes might need reexamining. There have been numerous scientific studies in contolled environments that conclude the exact opposite. Studies have shown that scent detection can be be up to 85% of the method of determining feeding behaviour. These studies have been done in both SW and FW environments.

This is why bait bans are so prevalent in B.C rivers and lakes.
Not disputing that in the least, but we are still talking about SALMON, right? As already stated, all three of the salmon senses are important; however, actively feeding offshore salmon will USUALLY be attracted first by the lateral line, then sight and smell – but not always. If a salmon is swimming along and runs into something that smells good... it is going to eat! :)

All fish have a well-developed sense of smell and MANY use smell first… as in halibut, shark, etc.
I would love to use the sense of sight to see/read any scientific studies stating otherwise, concerning Chinook salmon? :)
 
LOL LOL but charlie what about that "blige water" that he used to sell and people who use wd-40 ???? there has to be some coralation to gas and fish that want to eat a lure spread all over:D:D:D;) in it????


Wolf

Blue Wolf Charters
www.bluewolfcharters.com
 
quote:Originally posted by Charlie
Not disputing that in the least, but we are still talking about SALMON, right? As already stated, all three of the salmon senses are important; however, actively feeding offshore salmon will USUALLY be attracted first by the lateral line, then sight and smell – but not always. If a salmon is swimming along and runs into something that smells good... it is going to eat! :)

I would love to use the sense of sight to see/read any scientific studies stating otherwise, concerning Chinook salmon? :)
Sorry Charlie, I should have been more specific. Studies that I have read were all on salmonids; Oncoryhnchus to be specific, Chinook, Coho and steelhead.

I don't have these reports saved anymore, but if I can dredge them up, i'll post'em

Cheers
 
Actually “I” am more interested in “finaddict” dredging up those numerous scientific studies. I would love to read them![?]

But, if someone wants to get into the gas and oil smell thing… and is really interested in salmon and their sense of smell, just do an internet search looking for what’s called "fish olfactory" (smell) or "fish gustatory" (taste) and start reading your heart out, as you will have enough come up to keep you busy for a looooong time!:)

Want to start with… YOU STINK! At least to a salmon you do! LOL[:0]:D
That was the finding of D. R. IDLER, U. H. M. FAGERLUND, AND HELEN MAYOH et al, in 1956, and they used “Parker, G. H., J. Exp. Zool., 1910, 8,” as a reference. I know you weren’t fishing, were you even born then? LOL
“The properties of a repellent for migrating salmon present in mammalian skin are discussed. PSerine which is present in the washings of human skin has been shown to have repellent activity at extremely high dilution.” 535.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2147578/pdf/889.pdf

Now concerning your gas and oil question… you can do this two ways? You can Google “fish olfactory” and spend hours reading (which I have done), or you can read the article I ran across by Phil Garberich written in 2001 and pretty much sums it up. The whole article is well worth the read! http://www.flyanglersonline.com/features/readerscast/rc131.php
quote:FISH ATTRACTANTS
Many of the bait scents and so called fish attractants sold on the market today do not really attract, but cover up the negative scent combinations. In fact, many oil-based attractants would be undetectable because their molecules are too large for the receptor sites. Products such as Cossacks Bait Products Shrimp, Herring, and Salmon Egg Oils; Riverside Lures Real Craw; Smelly Jelly; Edge Products Hot Sauce; Fish Formula; and Mikes Shrimp Oil are thought to be primarily oil based. I'm sure there are many others.

Products that claim to be based on amino acids would be Berkley's attractants along with Pharmacal's Baitmate Live and Dr. Juices Elixirs.

Plant extracts are very effective in covering human odors. Scents such as banana oil, garlic and anise are extracts from plants. Some plant scents are Cossack Bait Products Anise and Garlic Gel; Fish Formula Sparkle Scales; Mister Twister Banana Oil; Mike's Glow Scent Jel and Anise Oil. Plant extracts do not really attract, but provide an odor that the fish is not really accustomed to smelling, yet is not offensive if used properly.

Fish "attractants" were developed primarily for the warm water species like Bass. If you were fly fishing for catfish or carp, the application of scents might be considered because they are species that rely most heavily on smell and taste. But for the fish species that rely primarily on sighting their source of food, my recommendation is to forget formulated "fish attractants". There are two reasons: the first is that the application of a formulated scent cannot be accurately controlled. Too much scent is worse than no scent at all, or even having a slightly negative scent. The second reason is that if a scent gets too old, or too hot, it may change into a toxic substance that does just the opposite of what it was designed to do. Enough said for "attractants".

PREVENTING OFFENSIVE ODORS ON THE FLY
The first thing an angler should do is to try and eliminate the offensive odors that could be transferred to the fly. At the top of the list should be insect repellents. If you use an insect repellent on your hands, don't touch the fly. If you want to sabotage your fishing buddy, just spray insect repellent in his fly box.
Next comes tobacco and nicotine. If you smoke or chew tobacco when you are fishing or tying flies, take precautions so that the smoke or tobacco does not come in contact with the fly. Don't store flies or fly tying materials in empty tobacco tins or cigar boxes.

Gasoline is pretty high on the list of transferable odors. Gas up the night before your fishing trip or wash your hands thoroughly before you handle your fly. Fly anglers who fish from boats with outboard motors are likely to transfer this odor to the fly. Humans give off a very offensive amino acid called L-Serene. Of course this scent is transferred to the fly you tie or handle. (And whatever you do, don't spit on the fly for good luck.) Never wet your fingers with saliva to apply dubbing. Although you can't eliminate it totally, washing your hands with Lava or Ivory bar soap before tying flies or handling them will help immensely. Wetting your hands in the stream or lake before tying on a fly will help.

Another major offensive odor to fish is sun tan lotion, and just about any other hand lotion or soap that is designed to be fragrant and lubricating. Dishwashing detergents are known to be offensive to fish. So don't wash your hands with liquid soaps before tying flies.

The actual fly itself can contain a host of scent combinations. Although there has never been a study to my knowledge of the resident chemicals and scents built into a fly, you only have to imagine the possibilities. Since there is no practical way to inject an attractive flavor (an amino acid that duplicates the living organism) into the fly, I prefer a "no-odor" fly, and hope my presentation is good enough to get it into the fish's mouth before he tastes it.

One of the best odor cleansing operations you can give your fly is to use the vegetation, moss, mud and weeds that are present on the waters you are fishing. Don't cuss the next time you retrieve a load of moss or weeds on your fly, you have just made your fly more acceptable to the fish. ~ Phil Garberich
BTW… WITF is “blidge water” If ole Charlie White (may he RIP) was selling people his “blidge water” as a salmon attractant – GODD FOR HIM, THERE IS A ‘SUCKER’ BORN EVERYDAY! LOL!! Now if you are referring to the BILGE? I hate to tell you this, but I could eat out of my bilge (yes, it’s that clean) and not worry about any kind of pollutants? If you have any gas or oil in your bilge, you need to get something fixed!
 
lol - jellyfish? Come on we all know there is zero proof that jelly fish repel salmon. I've had my lines covered with the stuff and caught fish as has just about everybody that fishes.

Have you seen the charlie white video where he literally dips his lure into an oil/gas filed inboard engine bilge, puts it out and catches fish after fish. Selling it would be a gimmick for sure, but didn't seem to slow his fishing down.

Because a fish is near sighted does not mean its blind after 5 feet, it means it doesn't have detail at greater distances - they can still see whats out there, they would just have to come closer to see detail.

I think you are stretching things a little thin and making blanket statements, when in fact NOBODY knows the exact answer. 60 year old studies, pro troll website, fly fishing articles are not exactly my idea of credible references.

Time to go fishing I think .....



http://www.fishingvancouverisland.org
 
A couple of personal observations while underwater in saltwater with salmon:

I rarely have seen salmon underwater while scuba diving as I suspect they keep away from divers and out of range of visibility most times. Once however a fairly big chinook lazily swam by me about 15 feet away ( the visibility that day was quite decent at about 30 feet) The chinook seemed to not notice me or just not care about my presence ( despite noisy vibrating bubbles coming out my regulator ) When I moved slowly toward the chinook, it noticed .....and darted off like a rocket. If it was attracted by the bubbles I would think divers would see salmon way more often so I am at a loss as to how I got so close that day.

Another time I was about 40 feet below a school of coho all circling above me at maybe 30 feet. As I looked up I could see them silloetted against the sunshine from my depth at about 70 feet. My air bubbles floated up to them but they didn't seem to bother the coho. After the dive we dragged a couple lines through the school and landed a couple of them !!

I have always been interested in how some colours appear to salmon underwater. The warmer colours like reds and yellows completely dissappear when you get below about 30 feet. But what I find hard to grasp is that salmon often do seem to be attracted to warmer colours at depths much greater than that. For example sockeye biting on pink mini plankton hootchies down at 60 or 80 feet ? Red light is filtered out at that depth therefore to a diver a red lure will look grey and absolutely colourless. So why would a salmon be atttracted to warmer colours at deeper depth when there is no warm colours ? Green and blues are visible at much deeper depths. Can salmon somehow see warm colours at deeper depths than humans ? hmmm ?
 
quote:Originally posted by Poppa Swiss

lol - jellyfish? Come on we all know there is zero proof that jelly fish repel salmon. I've had my lines covered with the stuff and caught fish as has just about everybody that fishes.
"The smell of your lure or bait is important, but it is more of a turn-off than a turn-on. Salmon do not find your bait by smell. Once they do find it, however, if it smells wrong they will turn away. The best example is a bait that has snagged a jellyfish. The salmon will always turn away as soon as he smells the jellyfish. Remember that a salmon has an uncanny sense of smell. This is how he traces his way to his place of birth when on his spawning mission. He can smell differences in the water so minute that sophisticated instruments cannot even measure them. The lesson: Keep your bait and lures clean. Avoid getting obvious strong smelling substances like gasoline, motor oil or tobacco on your hands. If you hook a jellyfish, always change your bait."
http://www.protroll.com/books/?id=2&p_id=all

I suggest you contact Dick Pool? Obliviously you know more than he? LOL [:0][:I]
Let's see..."Dick Pool has spent many years researching salmon techniques. He is best known for his work using an underwater TV camera. He produced two movies showing the results to thousands of salmon fishermen. "Salmon Attack" played at the popular West Coast Sport and Boat Shows for a number of years. His other movie "Pacific Ocean Salmon Fishing" was released on home video."
http://www.protroll.com/books/?id=2&p_id=7

Oh, forgot... sorry, didn’t list your credentials, but, wait… I seem to have a problem, I can’t find any? [:0][:0]
I can respect everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but based on credentials sorry again, I personally will stick with Dick Pool! [:p]:D
 
quote:Originally posted by Peahead

.....Red light is filtered out at that depth therefore to a diver a red lure will look grey and absolutely colourless. So why would a salmon be atttracted to warmer colours at deeper depth when there is no warm colours ? Green and blues are visible at much deeper depths. Can salmon somehow see warm colours at deeper depths than humans?......
Same thing with Rockfish-have had them all over anything Red in 60' of water.There was Crab larvae spilling out of the mouths of every one we took so that explains part of why they liked the Red B-52'S we were jigging with but Black or Purple squids didn't receive nearly as much attention.

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quote:Originally posted by Poppa Swiss

Have you seen the charlie white video where he literally dips his lure into an oil/gas filed inboard engine bilge, puts it out and catches fish after fish. Selling it would be a gimmick for sure, but didn't seem to slow his fishing down.

Because a fish is near sighted does not mean its blind after 5 feet, it means it doesn't have detail at greater distances - they can still see whats out there, they would just have to come closer to see detail.

I think you are stretching things a little thin and making blanket statements, when in fact NOBODY knows the exact answer. 60 year old studies, pro troll website, fly fishing articles are not exactly my idea of credible references.
Obliviously you know more than these people , also? LOL

Olfactory stimuli provide fish information that sight cannot. Most fish species are nearsighted, and water in ecosystems varies greatly in clarity. So a sense of smell is a powerful tool. It helps in: locating food or prey, identifying conspecifics or mates, and sensing and evading potential predators. "Fear", for example, can be induced by smell. In several fish families, small schooling fish, when physically injured by a predator, release a pheromone called Schreckstoff from their damaged skin cells. The pheromone creates a sense of panic, causing the school to disperse and to swim away from the danger, whatever it may be. Other types of chemical stimuli include hormones, amino acids, nucleotides, ammonia, and lipids.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/5/fish

Have fun… me I HAVE read some of the following so - I’ll just stick with Phil Garberich recap, at least until I find your missing references! LOL
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Zeiske, E., Theisen, B. and Breucker, H. (1992). Structure, development and evolutionary aspects of the peripheral olfactory system. In Fish Chemoreception (ed. T. J. Hara), pp. 13–39. London: Chapman & Hall.

Have a great day! :D
 
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