an informal poll

quote:Originally posted by wolf

Well I personally never understood a deflecter anyways

...everything you'd ever want to know...
http://theradarreflectorsite.org/

...from the site in the articles and blogs section good overview on "Can you be detected"

Summary
Pleasure vessels are not strong radar targets, multipath pulse cancellation limits detection
range in calm sea conditions, shadowing limits detection when the waves are larger than the
freeboard, and the radar horizon is limited because the target is on the surface. Fog and rain
attenuate the signal and reduce the probability that a pleasure vessel is detected. Clutter from
waves and rain may make detection impossible regardless of the scanner power.
As skipper of a pleasure vessel in good weather and calm seas, you may think in terms of
being detected by low-power recreational radar at half a mile or so and by professional radar on a
large ship at four miles or so. Detection range improves about three to one as the seas build to
seven feet or if a good radar reflector is mounted on the vessel. Other than that, darkness, light
drizzle, moderate fog, and waves to three feet have little effect on detection range.
Detection in bad weather is problematic. Thick fog and drizzle extending over large
areas may attenuate the radar signal greatly and reduce detection range severely. If the rain
surrounds your vessel, clutter restricts detection to ranges shorter than the rain clutter limit range,
which is about one mile in light rain, half a mile in moderate rain, and even shorter in heavier
rain. This is independent of the radar. Detection range may be better if your vessel is large or if
you have a good radar reflector, but the skipper of a recreational vessel should not count on
being detected at more than half a mile in moderate rain.
Waves generate a clutter limit. Outside the clutter limit, wave clutter has little effect on
detection. Inside, detection is possible only if the target is larger than the wave clutter. Three-
foot waves are not much of a problem. Five-foot waves require a moderately large radar
reflector; eight-foot waves require about 10 m2; ten-foot waves probably preclude detection
entirely. The sea clutter limit is proportional to antenna height and sea state; the larger ships, i.e.
higher antennas, experience the larger clutter rings, up to several miles. Detection range may be
better if your vessel is large or if you have a good radar reflector, but the skipper of a recreational
vessel should not count on being detected at less than a mile in eight-foot waves.
It does not take much in the way of rain or waves to limit detection of a pleasure boat to a
mile or less. A vessel approaching at 20 knots would have no more than three minutes to detect
you, identify you, track you and determine risk of collision, and decide on a course of action. A
large vessel would not be able to maneuver to avoid you under these time constraints. Your best
option is to proceed with extreme caution in bad weather.
Radar Reflectors Improve Detection
A radar reflector is a small device that is a very strong reflector of radar waves. (A one-
foot diameter radar reflector is often as strong a radar target as an entire sailboat.) One benefit
from a radar reflector is that it overcomes the pulse cancellation effect of smooth seas, as long as
you mount it high enough, because the radar target is no longer close to the surface. As a rule of
© Philip G. Gallman, 2009 7
thumb, mounting a radar reflector of the same RCS as the vessel hull 16 feet (5 meters) above
the water overcomes the flat-sea pulse cancellation effect. With a good radar reflector, correctly
mounted, the detection range table is applicable even in calm seas. A second benefit is that radar
reflectors mitigate wave shadowing and improve detection reliability when the waves are about
the same height as the target vessel’s freeboard. A radar reflector mounted 16 feet above the
waterline would be above the waves and would not be shadowed except in extreme conditions.
A third benefit is extension of the radar horizon because the reflector is some distance above the
waterline.
Unfortunately, nothing is free, and one must understand the second effect of pulse
cancellation by smooth water. While the radar reflector generally increases the maximum range
at which radar first detects you in smooth water, it also makes you invisible to radar in rather
broad rings, or blind zones, around the radar scanner. However, since the blind zones are at
ranges greater than the maximum detection range without a radar reflector, there is still a net
improvement from mounting a radar reflector.
On balance, a radar reflector is a relatively inexpensive device that improves detection in
many situations. In my opinion, every pleasure vessel should have one.
Radar Reflector
• Improves detection in all conditions if it has larger RCS than
the vessel it is mounted on
• Increases maximum detection range in calm seas, even if it’s
RCS is no larger than the vessel’s
• Overcomes intermittent detection caused by waves shadowing
the hull
• Extends the radar horizon
• Is invisible to radar in broad rings around the scanner in calm
seas, depending on the heights of the scanner and radar
reflector


TenMile
<'((((><
 
ya I have been off shore 60 miles fishing black cod and in the charlottes fishing halibut ( do you want my resume or is that enough to prove that I"ve been off shore enough for you.) and those freighter do move fast. as for reflectors we had a old radar that would pick up logs in the water. don't get me wrong you can never have to much safety stuff on board.
 
Hmmm…
I have a Fog Horn, Radar, Reflective Tape, and I run in the fog and offshore a lot, probably too much for my own good!

My radar will also pick up a log in the water and it will also pick up a fiberglass kayak, under the right conditions! The problem lies in the sea clutter and waves mostly around the boat. A good reflector will give a stronger signal. I can tell when a boat has a reflector, just by the size of target on my screen. The reflector helps separate the boat from the sea clutter giving it a more pronounced target for me to spot. Truth is neither really helps much over a couple of miles, but it is within a mile that concerns me and a reflector regardless of where it is mounted, as long as it is on the front of the boat, is going to help me miss you!

A freighter (that shows up like a moving island) doesn't bother me in the least, nor do any other commercial boats, being fishing or otherwise! The later are usually moving slow enough, not to be a problem. But, if you think- for one moment- a freighter or any large vessel, whether they are blowing a fog horn or not, is either going to see you or maneuver to miss you… you are deadly</u> wrong! They are blowing those horns to tell you they are there and for you to get out of the way!

The problem I have is all the other pleasure and sport fishing boats out in the fog and yes, while I am clued to my radar, they are clued to their GPS. They can't see past their bow, and here they come at me running 30 knots! And yes, a lot without reflectors or radar! They have me down to usually running less than 15 knots, just to avoid them… and I am the one that can "see", they don't even have a clue I am there. Nor do most even hear my fog horn over their wide open engines! A few years back I was running in the fog on WCVI and had a boat come right across my bow, within about 150 feet of me, running about 25 knots! He didn't have a clue I was there, until I blew my horn at him! What he didn't and probably still doesn't know is I had to turn and shut my boat down to miss him… and yes I did have the right away, but that doesn't seem to help when you hit someone running 25 knots broadside!

You guys just had someone killed up there, where two boats ran into each other last year and it was due to poor visibility? If you keep playing out there without radar, someone else is going to end up dead! I hope it is not one of you or ME! To the ones that don't have radar, you shouldn't be out there and if you are out there, at least give us (the ones with radar) a fighting chance of avoiding you and yes reflectors will help, along with how about slowing it down, also!

Just my final 2 cents!
 
several of the links to articles explain how a radar reflector works better than i can. but, wolf, if a radar signal hits a reflector at lets say 10 degrees, it is reflected back at 10 degrees, a concentrating effect. your radar arch looks like a big hunk of metalic surface to you, however, the radar signal is going to hit the knife edge of that round tubing, thats it. now perhaps you have enough 'knife edges' in your arch to make that signal hit the sending radar unit, maybe you don't.

my all aluminum boat has about 9' of freeboard so i am quite a large target. nonetheless, it is still a great idea to put a reflector on the boat hook, put the hook in a rocket launcher and have some confidence that you are going to be seen.

any freighter you encounter is operating under the 'right of way' rule know as the 'rule of tonnage', get the hell out of the way 'cause they ain't goin'to'move off track.

i pinged 3M yesterday re the radar reflective tape. they gave me a phone # to call which i will do shortly. i am not sure how the SOLAS tape works to reflect radar as the glass prisms encased in the plastic top coat are microscopic, but i will not argue with real world experience, charlie.

i think the key points here are: consider yourself invisable to someone elses radar in the fog; don't assume because you have radar you can see everything that is going on around you (best to check this is clear air); and most important SLOW DOWN!!!!!!
 
The advantages of a reflector over tape or the hull material of the boat is it's ability to be mounted up high above the waterline. Radar works on a very similar principle to your VHF radio and relies on a reflection that is line of site. On a windy day waves between you and the target can block the reflection of the radar energy (because it blocks the site line). On a calm day, the smooth surface of the water scatters the energy everywhere and can eliminate the return signal. Mounting a large reflector up as high as possible get you seen above the waves and reduces the effects of multipath signals from calm water.

Mounting a reflector on a pole and sticking it into a rod holder on the radar arch is probably the best way to get it up as high as possible. I wouldn't recommend mounting it on a VHF antenna as they are actually pretty fragile inside.

TenMile
&lt;'((((&gt;&lt;
 
quote:Originally posted by beemer

Is your head really made of iron, Ironnoggin ? apparently so

Perhaps that also acts as a radar reflector when I'm out there [:o)]

Except for my little whaler (restricted to the Inlet on good weather days), every boat I run out in the chuck has both radar and reflectors. Methinks the why's have been well covered above.

For those that think different - I Hope you're made of something stronger than iron for the eventuality of an at-sea collision. And even more I hope you don't take someone with you when you join in Darwin's Parade [}:)]

Cheers,
Nog
 
quote:Originally posted by reelfast
[brmy my all aluminum boat has about 9' of freeboard
Wow... that is a lot of freeboard, what kind of boat and how big is it?

quote:i pinged 3M yesterday re the radar reflective tape. they gave me a phone # to call which i will do shortly. i am not sure how the SOLAS tape works to reflect radar...
The tape was already on the boat when I bought it... it looks like SOLAS, but I could be wrong, but it does work. You are right, make sure whatever it is, that it does work and in clear skys is a good time to do that, not in the fog! Let me know what you find out, as I have a couple of spots I would like to touch up.

quote:i think the key points here are: consider yourself invisable to someone elses radar in the fog; don't assume because you have radar you can see everything that is going on around you (best to check this is clear air); and most important SLOW DOWN!!!!!!
I agree with that 100%, especially the SLOW DOWN part!
 
quote:Originally posted by Highliner

Is there any use to a reflector on an aluminum boat then? Or is the issue more about the height of the reflective material?
Yes, a good reflector will send a concentrated beam back to the radar and will make your boat show as a much larger target.

The higher... the better as it will show you farther out, giving more time to avoid you! The time to be seen is not coming down the frontside of a swell with another boat coming down the backside of the swell in front of you and that is what you are risking? That is why everyone is saying... get it as high as you can!

In the sounds, radar has to deal with wind waves and other sea clutter, you may or may not be seen. Offshore, throw in the swells and sea states and you probably won't be seen? Thank goodness, when it is foggy, the sea states are usually calm! It is a VERY lonely feeling off the WCVI in the fog, is it not? At least, I used to think so, until I got radar and found out how many boats are really there... and there are A LOT, all the way up the coast!
 
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