2010 Halibut Catch Recommendations

[Bogman]

Lets do the simplest of math 6,590,000# of quota this year divided by 424licenses = 15,542# on average. A far cry from the 100,000# you seem to think the average is. Start doing the $$$ math using that starting point.

"Who would have ever thought it would be this much fun catching them one at a time"

 

[Little Hawk]

quote:Originally posted by r.s craven

So what can an individual do to bring about change ??
we have all written letters to our local M.P.'s as well as the minister of fisheries with little result.
We as a group lack power for 2 main reasons, no funds to challenge
the gov't in court and dicsension in our own ranks.

I would like to know what else can be done ?

I know you are passionate as anyone about our fisheries Crave, but maybe this is a good time to remind everyone about the importance of attending SFAB meetings to keep our fingers on the pulse and try to organize ourselves. It seems to be the only organization DFO pays any attention at all to these days, even if it ain't much.

I do know this, big turnouts at meetings generates good karma and focus amongst us and anxiety within DFO and government. The last thing they want is to see a group, be it the Natives', commies', whatever, charging at them in a united-front. With other initiatives (like the WSA) seemingly sidelined at this juncture, the SFAB seems the most potent conduit available to us.

"Some could care less if there's any fish left for our kids!"

 

[Barbender]

quote:
Lets do the simplest of math 6,590,000# of quota this year divided by 424licenses = 15,542# on average.

That is just Halibut Bogman. If you add the other species into the mix as you aptly pointed out that should more than triple their numbers. Also most halibut fishermen I know have close to 100 000 lbs quota not 15 000lbs. Like I said I hold nothing against them, I like the idea of fishermen making money it is good for the economy. What I dont like is greedy fishing companies taking my fish away because the demand for wild seafood is in so much demand.

 

[fisher69]

quote:Originally posted by Barbender

quote:
Lets do the simplest of math 6,590,000# of quota this year divided by 424licenses = 15,542# on average.

That is just Halibut Bogman. If you add the other species into the mix as you aptly pointed out that should more than triple their numbers. Also most halibut fishermen I know have close to 100 000 lbs quota not 15 000lbs. Like I said I hold nothing against them, I like the idea of fishermen making money it is good for the economy. What I dont like is greedy fishing companies taking my fish away because the demand for wild seafood is in so much demand.

Barbender no disrespect but you are not even close. The most last year any one boat can carry was 69,000lbs of hali and maybe 10-15% non directed(rockfish). The non directed is rockfish that may average $.50/lb. Take those numbers subtract a lease, fuel, bait and a high monitoring price tag and try again. If by chance there is no change at IPHC this year then 69g will be reduced by 13.4% and so does the non directed catch. Is there not something out there about leaning about your enemy....(don't take that in the wrong context as I believe DFO is everybody's enemy and the 3 sectors should be standing in a circle beating them over the head)

There are way fewer millionairs sitting on the beach in Hawaii than you think. .

 

[Barbender]

My understanding though is that many halibut boats fish more than just their own quota. Several boats lease other boats quotas so they can double up etc (Hence the term armchair fishermen). However that really is not the point, what is the point is that the value of halibut is increasing significantly due to demand from consumers. The end result is more pressure on the resource which in turns means cuts to the sport fishery.

 

[Governor]

Right or wrong, the only viable answer to returning to a normal sport halibut season is a compensated transfer to the commercial sector to move the failed Thibault halibut allocation policy from 88/12 to 80/20.

Anything less is simply 'moving deckchairs around on the Titanic'

The Canadian public pressuring politicians will make it happen, nothing less.



God never did make a more calm, quiet, innocent recreation than angling - Izaak Walton

 

[Bogman]

Barbender, The increase in effort is not on the commercial side but on the sports side in the last few yew years 88/12 has not changed. How much the commercial fleet gets for there halibut does not increase the 88%, it is what it is. The problem for the sports lies in the decreasing TAC which is not because of over fishing but it is cyclical and we have been on a downward cycle. 12% of a 12 million pound TAC may be enough for the sports sector but 12% of a 6.5 million pound TAC isn't due to increased interest in halibut fishing by sporty's in the last few years.

As to your armchair commercial fisherman comment , believe me there are lots of commercial guys that don't belive in the leasing of quota also. but as for getting rich on it well the numbers still speak for them selves if a guy owns the 15,000 pound average and leases it out for $3.00 and pound thats a $45,000 dollar return on his money . That is really good interest on the value of quota these days but there are so many factors involved and I don't type fast enough to explain them all. Not all the quota are original gifted quota as everyone on here likes to call them . The guy that bought my quota at 55,000 pounds is now holding about half af that due to lower TAC and if my estimates are correct on what quota is worth today has lost approx $400,000 . How do you think he feels.

"Who would have ever thought it would be this much fun catching them one at a time"

 

[Governor]

quote:Originally posted by Bogman

Barbender, The increase in effort is not on the commercial side but on the sports side in the last few yew years 88/12 has not changed. How much the commercial fleet gets for there halibut does not increase the 88%, it is what it is. The problem for the sports lies in the decreasing TAC which is not because of over fishing but it is cyclical and we have been on a downward cycle. 12% of a 12 million pound TAC may be enough for the sports sector but 12% of a 6.5 million pound TAC isn't due to increased interest in halibut fishing by sporty's in the last few years.

As to your armchair commercial fisherman comment , believe me there are lots of commercial guys that don't belive in the leasing of quota also. but as for getting rich on it well the numbers still speak for them selves if a guy owns the 15,000 pound average and leases it out for $3.00 and pound thats a $45,000 dollar return on his money . That is really good interest on the value of quota these days but there are so many factors involved and I don't type fast enough to explain them all. Not all the quota are original gifted quota as everyone on here likes to call them . The guy that bought my quota at 55,000 pounds is now holding about half af that due to lower TAC and if my estimates are correct on what quota is worth today has lost approx $400,000 . How do you think he feels.

"Who would have ever thought it would be this much fun catching them one at a time"

You may not realize Bogman but the sport sector catch peeked four or five years ago and has been dropping ever since.

The tragedy and mistake of gifted quota is very evident. Beside being looked upon as a instant free government retirement program by commercial players, it made huge over night windfalls for those original 400 + players. And a few additional 'lucky' gamblers along the way too. The commercial groundfish guys are on the verge of raking in the dough soon too as quota is high on the to-do list there.

It is completely clear that the poor sap that bought your 55,000 lbs of quota is being f**ked by the system. The halibut market is no different than the TSE, NASDAC or NYSE stock market... fear and greed ... money money money all the way. Just think of the unwise investor that bought JDS Uniphase shares at $125.00 each (is it $5.00 today?) What about Nortel - great investment. No guarantees of riches there either. It's high stakes gambling just like the halibut quota market. But protecting the goose that lays your golden eggs is vital to the commercial sector, even if it is clear the system of individual transferable quota is broken and truly rewards only the few original players and those around as fish stocks increase in abundance.

The point you commercial-sympethizers seem to forget is I do not go fishing for profit, I go fishing for pleasure and to feed myself quality food. I really don't want fear and greed and money money money to run the sport sector as it has been doing since Thibault made his terrible mistake! [xx(]

God never did make a more calm, quiet, innocent recreation than angling - Izaak Walton

 

[Bogman]

Govenor, I realize alot in the sport sector as I now manage a lodge in the Charlottes. Right or wrong what has happened in the past as far as Halibut quotas go , what happened has happened and It will not change . You can fight all you want and some in the sport sector have asked ,with my past experience in the commercial sector , if I will join this fight but it is a losing battle and it is not the road to take. We , sports, commercial and first nations need to work together and make changes and create a system that works for us all. I believe DFO will be behind us all the way if we can work together. If we stay divided I am sorry to say but there is no hope.

"Who would have ever thought it would be this much fun catching them one at a time"

 

[Governor]

quote:Originally posted by Bogman

Govenor, I realize alot in the sport sector as I now manage a lodge in the Charlottes. Right or wrong what has happened in the past as far as Halibut quotas go , what happened has happened and It will not change . You can fight all you want and some in the sport sector have asked ,with my past experience in the commercial sector , if I will join this fight but it is a losing battle</u> and it is not the road to take. We , sports, commercial and first nations need to work together and make changes and create a system that works for us all. I believe DFO will be behind us all the way if we can work together.</u> If we stay divided I am sorry to say but there is no hope.

"Who would have ever thought it would be this much fun catching them one at a time"

I disagree on two points Bogman.

First, it depends on what you fight for and who you fight with, whether or not a fight is winable or worthy of one's efforts. I have always been for working together and still to this day agree that a coalition of sport, comm and FN would be more powerful than one group alone. The government in Ottawa made this mess for all of us and they need to be the ones pressured into correcting the problem.

Personally, I am okay with a compensated transfer to make the halibut quota system work under compromise. However, I believe the best system for public to access any of Canada's common property fish resources are through priority access (exactly like chinook and coho). Anglers shouldn't be pi$$ing around with money to buy/lease fish from another sector, it is absurd. Plus I want to ensure this halibut mistake is not repeated with other species when new quota system are developed. If commercial fishermen work better with quota that's absolutely fine by me but it is wrong to drag other groups into that system where there are different objectives to accessing the resource. Just think where FN would tell us all to go if we lobbied government to give them a small "percentage" of the stock for FSC regardless of abundance (yes, I know it is protected as a right under law but still the analagy makes my point)

Fighting for the system to be improved is honourable. I fight to pursue the correction of a govenment wrong doing in order to avoid witnessing further damage to the incomes of those people who currently rely on their clients access to the resource and the wrong of needlessly taking away the Canadian public's opportunity to catch halibut. Having early announcement of seasons, knowing what you can catch and when the season opens and closes are requisit to sustaining viable and predictable fisheries as well as maintaing lodges and charter businesses. Commercial fishing is no different.

And the ironic part of this is that Hugh Gordon facilitated an multi-sector agreement two years ago where sport (SFAB), commercial (PHMA) and FN (NTC) plus Pacific DFO all signed off on a resolution paper that paved the way to resolve the halibut allocation debacle. After a year of not even having the courteousy of replying, Ottawa came back and said simply "no".

So I know who the enemy are and my fight is not over regardless of whether you are in or out.



God never did make a more calm, quiet, innocent recreation than angling - Izaak Walton

 

[fisher69]

quote:

Personally, I am okay with a compensated transfer to make the halibut quota system work under compromise. However, I believe the best system for public to access any of Canada's common property fish resources are through priority access (exactly like chinook and coho). Anglers shouldn't be pi$$ing around with money to buy/lease fish from another sector, it is absurd. Plus I want to ensure this halibut mistake is not repeated with other species when new quota system are developed. If commercial fishermen work better with quota that's absolutely fine by me but it is wrong to drag other groups into that system where there are different objectives to accessing the resource. Just think where FN would tell us all to go if we lobbied government to give them a small "percentage" of the stock for FSC regardless of abundance (yes, I know it is protected as a right under law but still the analagy makes my point)

How are the chinook and coho on the south coast making out with this priority access, no accountability you speak of?

 

[fisher69]

quote:Originally posted by Barbender

My understanding though is that many halibut boats fish more than just their own quota. Several boats lease other boats quotas so they can double up etc (Hence the term armchair fishermen). However that really is not the point, what is the point is that the value of halibut is increasing significantly due to demand from consumers. The end result is more pressure on the resource which in turns means cuts to the sport fishery.

Just for clarification.

Yes boats can lease fish from other boats but you can't exceed the 1%. That means if you own 10,000 you can only lease another 59,000 to top up to the 69,000. And there is no increase pressure from the commies as they have to stay wihtin the 88%. Any increase in pressure comes from this sector.

 

[reelfast]

fisher69, i wonder if you can post an example where the text matches the numbers. confused............

 

[fisher69]

quote:Originally posted by reelfast

fisher69, i wonder if you can post an example where the text matches the numbers. confused............

If you read the management plans on the DFO website it might explain a little bit.

Basically any 1 commercial halibut boat can catch a maximum of 1% of the commercial halibut TAC. So this year coming up if the commercial halibut TAC is 5,900,000 then any 1 licensed boat can only catch 59,000 lbs of halibut. If he only owns 10,000lbs then he can lease an additional 49,000lbs if he chooses.

Now along with the Halibut there is what is called non directed fish(rockfish). Because there is a concern over certain species of rockfish(yelloweye, quillback..ect) a boat is limited to a percentage of non-directed along with their directed catch.

For example: A licensed halibut boat catches 10,000 lbs of Halibut, he can also catch approx 15%(rough number) of rockfish to go with it. Now every species of rockfish has a trip limit(a percentage of the total halibut on board) and also a yearly limit. This is where the management plans explains how much of each species of rockfish a boat can land on a trip.

From what I read it is a very complicated system when you start to look at all the different species.

Hope that helps but I almost confused myself re-reading this.

 

[reelfast]

thanks, now i understand where the percentages apply and how the purchase of additional quota apply.

 

[Bogman]

quote:Originally posted by reelfast

thanks, now i understand where the percentages apply and how the purchase of additional quota apply.

Reelfast, SO you are clear here the 59,000 that fisher69 is talking about is LEASED for 1 season only not purchased.

"Who would have ever thought it would be this much fun catching them one at a time"

 

[reelfast]

jeez bogman, here i thought i had it. from the example, i was reading that the person leased 49,000 for that one season since he already had 10,000 pounds gifted(?). did i miss it again?

 

[Bogman]

NO you are correct. 10,000 owned ,not gifted, and 49,000 leased for one year. Sorry if I confused you.

"Who would have ever thought it would be this much fun catching them one at a time"

 

[fisher69]

quote:Originally posted by Bogman

NO you are correct. 10,000 owned ,not gifted, and 49,000 leased for one year. Sorry if I confused you.

"Who would have ever thought it would be this much fun catching them one at a time"

Thanks for that point of clarification bogman. Just because a person owns 10,000lbs does not mean it was gifted. He may have had to buy it to stay viable.

 

[OldBlackDog]

quote:Originally posted by fisher69

quote:Originally posted by Bogman

NO you are correct. 10,000 owned ,not gifted, and 49,000 leased for one year. Sorry if I confused you.

"Who would have ever thought it would be this much fun catching them one at a time"

Thanks for that point of clarification bogman. Just because a person owns 10,000lbs does not mean it was gifted. He may have had to buy it to stay viable.

However, just to repeat "ALL" of the quota was originally gifted.