Vision for Salmon Report Raincoast 2020

[wildmanyeah]

If you want ocean fishing to be open manage it like cultus lake sockeye, Allow a 30% ER on these stocks and just be content with them going extinct. It's really the only way ocean fishing will be open.

DFO does not have the capability to restore these stocks. It's not ever going to happen. Push for more ER

That's the conclusion I have come to.

If you are hell bent on saving these fish then just be prepared to not fish for the next 30 years.

 

[ziggy]

If you want ocean fishing to be open manage it like cultus lake sockeye, Allow a 30% ER on these stocks and just be content with them going extinct. It's really the only way ocean fishing will be open.

DFO does not have the capability to restore these stocks. It's not ever going to happen. Push for more ER

That's the conclusion I have come to.

If you are hell bent on saving these fish then just be prepared to not fish for the next 30 years.

And if you closed it for 30 years would you also stop hatchery fish production by us and our neighbours? Just curious as to what the impact of hatchery production would have on forage fish etc. during those 30 years and would wild fish compete? Also IMO if we simply stopped hatchery production and our neighbours carried on or even increased theirs, it would still have a significant impact on reestablishing the wild stock. In essence the neighbours would farm our field for us.

 

[wildmanyeah]

That’s my point zingy. Might as well just not try to save them

 

[searun]

There is substantial TAC taken of wild WCVI Chinook in Alaska, and along Haida Gwaii West Coast - esp. in the rec & troll sectors:
https://www.psc.org/fund-project/terminal-abundance-of-wcvi-chinook-salmon-year-2-of-3/

as far as Fraser Chinook, this report is particularly informative (esp. Fig H-5, p.72):
https://www.psc.org/download/52/workshops/3671/sbc_chinook_decline_panel_report.pdf

Thanks, the WCVI stock aggregate is somewhat difficult to use as a case study on stream-type chinook. Very few of those are actually in the mix as they migrate far off shore. Recent work to overlay what we know about CWT and DNA through the run reconstruction is showing in many areas the stock is mostly hatchery origin. My DNA data shows 80+% (even tho few are actually marked).

That is not to say some Stream-type chinook are not travelling near shore, but the incidence is very low along most areas of WCVI. So my point was that stream-types due to their far ocean migration route takes them largely out of harms way until they turn towards JDF to round the corner to the Fraser.

Reviewing the CWT data it is clear that the highest removals from fisheries is in the Fraser, and even JDF which is oft vilified by some, isn't any where near what happens in the Fraser....that we know about. With illegal netting, yes that is a huge risk.

That said, I hold to my points which is why are we chasing the shiny penny of fishery closures as "the" answer....let's address the big ones - predation, water quality, habitat...and a recruitment boost with some enhancement so there are fish actually using all the stuff we fix up (hopefully).

 

[wildmanyeah]

Again with the habitat what are you going to fix and where?

From my understanding when the salmon reach the upper Fraser tribs they are having pretty good spawning successes. Then in the spring when dfo conducts juvenile sampling in the lower Fraser they are getting decent amounts of upper Fraser chinook. Yes confirmed with DNA.

It’s somewhere after this this that the bottleneck is occurring. They are bigger in size and sea lice are not an issue, they migrate past fish farms at lightening speeds so they are not an issue.

It’s really comes down to seal predation, bad ocean conditions, killer whale predation and then ultimate fishery removals. But the fishery removals are now close to 5% at lest domestically. The last 15 years of netting in the Fraser is what offed these fish when ocean conditions were declining.

 

[searun]

Yep, that is why I listed predation first...Thompson Steelhead should have been the canary in the coal mine a long while back. It plays a larger role in declines that most of us think. We do know that the Albion test fishery shows a lot more fish entering the river than appear to be making it up to the spawning grounds after accounting for stock monitoring FN fisheries. I have heard rumour that up to 30% cannot be accounted for - so bad is the difference between Albion, that there is a correction factor deducted from Albion to make sense of the difference. Perhaps we should call it what it is...illegal netting. Organized crime stealing from the community....time to stop looking the other way. That said, we need to look at the other factors much more than chasing the easy targets.

 

[OldBlackDog]

Great reply, however this has been known for years and the powers to be will not address it.

Yep, that is why I listed predation first...Thompson Steelhead should have been the canary in the coal mine a long while back. It plays a larger role in declines that most of us think. We do know that the Albion test fishery shows a lot more fish entering the river than appear to be making it up to the spawning grounds after accounting for stock monitoring FN fisheries. I have heard rumour that up to 30% cannot be accounted for - so bad is the difference between Albion, that there is a correction factor deducted from Albion to make sense of the difference. Perhaps we should call it what it is...illegal netting. Organized crime stealing from the community....time to stop looking the other way. That said, we need to look at the other factors much more than chasing the easy targets.

 

[Whole in the Water]

Great reply, however this has been known for years and the powers to be will not address it.

Yup we understand about all the problems of what has happened in the past. BUT is doesn't mean it has to stay that way. WE the people, the citizens of this country can change things if we make it a priority, even a political priority!

I say lets have less of this 'ongoing, unproductice doom and gloom, it was like this in the past and it is unlikely to get better in the future' talk. This just leads to giving up and is hopeless and useless in improving anything in life. If some folks want to give up on improving things for BC salmon, that is their choice, but I say to those that don't want to give up let's keep working together to bring back salmon populations - it is possible. It will take lots of time, $$$ and effort, but it is possible - if we truly want to make it happen!

I say we cannot let what happened to the essentailly extinct salmon populations in Europe, UK, and eastern North America happen here. Time to wake up and throw off the negatively put our energy into solutions not just reciting how bad it is and how nothing can be done to improve. The bottom line is that each person by their attitudes and actions is either part of the problem, or part of the solution - I say be part of the solution! My 2 bits.

 

[Whitebuck]

You guys keep saying illegal netting.
Yes it is major problem, however DFO gives FN so many openings that they.dont even have to poach. We had over 50 legal openings last spring when we were told about there was gonna be no netting.
The netting on the South Thompson stock this late summer was daily and that stock got absolutely wiped out. This is the Albion reference that you are referring to!
The increased netting on these stocks over the last 20 years is what did these stocks in. Seal predation is huge as well.

As for habitat restoration yes it would help for some of the Thompson tribs however most of the upper spawning areas are pristine and mint. As Dave said its about getting spawners to grounds.

Go walk the Stuart, Torpy, Macgregor, Slim and Westroad rivers prime habitat just no fish.

Until the nets stay out of the Fraser and the seal issue is addressed these stocks are as good as extinct!

 

[wildmanyeah]

that's why yah gotta push for more ER and write this stock off its doomed either way. the nets are going to stay in the river so might as well push for more ER and open the ocean.

 

[terrin]

Again with the habitat what are you going to fix and where?

From my understanding when the salmon reach the upper Fraser tribs they are having pretty good spawning successes. Then in the spring when dfo conducts juvenile sampling in the lower Fraser they are getting decent amounts of upper Fraser chinook. Yes confirmed with DNA.

It’s somewhere after this this that the bottleneck is occurring. They are bigger in size and sea lice are not an issue, they migrate past fish farms at lightening speeds so they are not an issue.

It’s really comes down to seal predation, bad ocean conditions, killer whale predation and then ultimate fishery removals. But the fishery removals are now close to 5% at lest domestically. The last 15 years of netting in the Fraser is what offed these fish when ocean conditions were declining.

Any scientific study to back your statement with regards to Fish Farms not being an issue or is that just your opinion? Everything got a lot worse in the early 90's around the same time the Fish Farms arrived but that may be just a coincidence.

 

[wildmanyeah]

Any scientific study to back your statement with regards to Fish Farms not being an issue or is that just your opinion? Everything got a lot worse in the early 90's around the same time the Fish Farms arrived but that may be just a coincidence.

It’s amazing for how long you have been on the forums how little you have actually learned about fish stocks.

I could maybe put together a case for some other stocks and fish farm impacts but early Fraser chinook not a chance.

 

[terrin]

It’s amazing for how long you have been on the forums how little you have actually learned about fish stocks.

I could maybe put together a case for some other stocks and fish farm impacts but early Fraser chinook not a chance.

Well I say it is all connected and if you can show that Fish Farms don't impact on Chinook smolts when they swim by I'm all eyes.

 

[terrin]

It's just to easy to just blame the collapse onto FN but I also agree netting on the Fraser is an issue as well.

 

[searun]

Gota question the fish farm connection on Fraser steam-types...what we know about them is they are far migrating offshore fish...so would likely avoid FF....but they are prime smarties for harbour seals when they come out of the river as very large smolts as compared to their ocean-type cousins from rivers like the Chilliwack.

Like most people I don't like the out of control illegal netting, but feel with this government we are powerless to influence action. Hoping that the community will start seeing the illegal netters as thieves who are stealing from them and driving a wedge between their community and others. I respect and support FSC fisheries, but I strongly dislike poachers. They are thieves.

So rather than get too focused on what we can't apparently control, I think its healthier for us to move onto things we might actually be able to influence....like pressing government to do something about predation, habitat, water quality....and recruitment (yes we need a strong push for enhancement). As was stated, we have a lot of habitat that is devoid of fish.

And if we don't set aside our differences, and work together to act soon, it will be all over but for the crying.

 

[agentaqua]

I think it is death by a thousand cuts - and where we can identify bottlenecks - we should do what we can where and when we can to alleviate that.

The FF connection may not be the worst and/or the most obvious - but releasing novel disease vectors onto naive stocks can have very large geographic impacts as returning salmon mingle and bring it home. China is a long ways away from North America and look at where we are wrt COVID-19. Not wanting to derail this thread with another FF debate - as the ISAv, PRv and other disease vectors have been covered in depth on other threads. Just stating what should be "the obvious"...

 

[ziggy]

Perhaps salmon ranching like Alaska does will be the solution? What we’re doing now certainly isn’t working. More net pens and expanded hatchery production.

 

[agentaqua]

Certainly salmon ranching would avoid many of the many issues of having long-term Atlantic farm stock interacting w especially juvenile salmon, 4 sure Ziggy The issue of ocean capacity & excessive stock enhancement by Russia, Alaska, BC & others has long needed a solution, however. It can be solved - but the politics & economics gets in the way...

 

[terrin]

It’s amazing for how long you have been on the forums how little you have actually learned about fish stocks.

I could maybe put together a case for some other stocks and fish farm impacts but early Fraser chinook not a chance.

Found this but maybe you have some more recent information.
Catch data for some Chinook stocks are incomplete because they do not include all components of freshwater harvest and/or because there is incomplete accounting for recreational fishery catches.
Additional CWT indicator stocks are needed, especially for Upper Fraser River spring Chinook salmon stocks, which have a yearling juvenile life history and offshore ocean distribution pattern, and which appear to have had the most dramatic recent declines in spawning escapements.
With many confounding factors involved in explaining time trends in abundance of spawners, CWT studies are the best means to estimate marine survival, rates of maturity, ocean distribution, and total exploitation rates over the life of Chinook salmon. It is therefore critical that these CWT data series be established for indicator stocks with life history types that are currently under-represented, such as stream-type spring Chinook for which adults and immature fish have an offshore ocean distribution.
In many cases, data on age-at-return, body size, and sex composition are inadequate for analysis and must be included in future annual monitoring.

 

[searun]

I think it is death by a thousand cuts - and where we can identify bottlenecks - we should do what we can where and when we can to alleviate that.

The FF connection may not be the worst and/or the most obvious - but releasing novel disease vectors onto naive stocks can have very large geographic impacts as returning salmon mingle and bring it home. China is a long ways away from North America and look at where we are wrt COVID-19. Not wanting to derail this thread with another FF debate - as the ISAv, PRv and other disease vectors have been covered in depth on other threads. Just stating what should be "the obvious"...

I think the point I was trying to make was in the realm of probable causes FF was way down the list. In a world where DFO has access to very limited resources I think it is more profitable to focus on the lower hanging fruit in this instance. I'm not a FF fan....quite the opposite...just suggesting we prioritize which battles are more likely to bear fruit.