Unlicenced fishing charters a growing concern

[agentaqua]

http://www.thenorthernview.com/news/374645401.html

 

[Dogbreath]

How much credibility does a news source that uses a photo of an Atlantic fish have anyway?

Couldn't they find a Hali or a Spring?

In Prince Rupert?

And this quote from the article

“Are we going to have 500? Is that OK? Because it’ll just kill the fishery like it did in Campbell River,” Weaver said.

Yet more ignorant bull-the fishery in Campbell River died because of falling Salmon numbers and after that the charter business collapsed.

 

[uclueletcharters]

This is going on everywhere it's very similar to Air BnB problems in many communities creating a shortage of long term accommodations and in this case it undermines those who play by the books and takes away from their income which feeds their family. Whether they can get it under control will be interesting as it would take a large amount of man power to watch for extended periods of time to determine who's being deceptive. Definitely something for the Municipality/City to enforce, who knows if they would be willing to allocate some of the annual budget for bylaw officers to chase.

If the city won't do anything report them to Revenue Canada and they will send out investigators. Revenue Canada penalties will well exceed what the municipality will do.

I run everything through the books keep it clean with no worries on the mind, which unlicensed guys can't.

 

[aheny]

I don't understand why people would go unlicensed. The process isn't that overwhelming. I just spent the last 6 months creating a fishing charter business, checking with transport Canada, DFO, worksafe bc, my insurance company, and my municipality. Get some tickets/licenses, follow some procedures, work safely and legally and there is no issues.

 

[uclueletcharters]

Agreed then you can use the income to finance new power or what ever plus you do get to expense a lot as it is an expensive business to operate properly. But for some they are looking for quick cash with the smallest investment ( fly by night guys ) in which case they can under cut the legal competition and so on and so forth but eventually it catches up when their motors need replacing etc lol. There usually good for a couple of years then they go broke and or fade away or it's a bush league operation

 

[Aces]

We've had this problem for years and the only way we got a handle on it was thru bylaw enforcement thru our municipal government and that took years to get them on board. Now they are finally going after the unlicensed vacation rentals

 

[agentaqua]

One of the real probs wrt enforcement is that the fly-by-nite Charter guys really don't need a licence to charter - as long as they are only taking their "friends" out to fish, and they have personal fishing licences. They don't even need a business licence then. The expectations wrt daily costs/rates and trip limits are then set by these fly-by-niters and the guys who are generally following the rules most of the time have to compete with the fly-by-niters. It's a big issue...

 

[finaddict]

And a tough one to police. I regularly take out buddies to go fishing and yes they are legitimately good friends. I am taking members of my hockey club out a couple of times in the next month and we will all split all costs equally. Having said that, it could be just as easy for me to take them all out and have them pay for everything. At that point is it buds going fishing together, or is that guiding? I get so much fish over the summer for myself, that any fish caught with these guys will be taken home by them. They will use my rods, my gear and I'll buy and prep all the bait (I am a little particular about that). we will go in my truck. Afterwards if we get anything, we will go to my place and I will fillet their catch and package in in vacuum bags. All in all it is pretty damn similar to what any guide (legit or not) would do. I guess the difference is I insist on splitting all costs equally.

I know one thing for sure,. After a day of doing this with my friends (most of whom are clueless about all the requirements for fishing), I am exhausted and there is no way in hell I would want to do it for a living, or even for spare cash. It is simply too damn much work. All you licensed guides have my utmost respect. You work VERY hard for the money and I am just too anal-retentive about my boat and my gear to let others beat the sh*t out of it all the time.

 

[trophywife]

as soon as money is exchanged technically it is considered working, all the rules are supposed to be applied. Insurance being the biggest one i feel. imagine what would happen if an accident occurred and it was found out monies where exchanged= no insurance. so whether i am charging full guiding rates or my buddies are just chipping in.... i am covered. i dont know if commercial insurance is valid if an operator is not not TC qualified. For sure the insurance company will take the operators money, but will they cover the operator once they find out that the TC regulations where not followed.

I do find it amazing that the lodges and other guide operations that third party me only assume i am insured and qualified..

if i work on peoples homes or on a strata, the first thing they do is usually ask for proof of wcb and liability insurance.

there will always be an element of shady biz practice no matter what trade you ply. unfortunately it is up to the customer to seek a reel professional.

 

[agentaqua]

You are right Trophywife - but try to prove that money did exchange hands....
What if the boat operator insists he is just taking his "friends" fishing??
That's a real problem.

 

[trophywife]

well, when his "friend" is dead or can no longer support himself or his family i am sure the mighty court/insurance company will do some heavy investigating... as long as nothing happens, this will probably continue unfortunately.

 

[finaddict]

If there is a previous relationship and the amount of money exchanging hands does not even cover the costs, I highly doubt it would be considered illegal guiding. Interesting discussion and one that has been on this forum before.I have always been fascinated by the guides perspective vs. the recreationalists (is that even a word?) perspective. I see no issue with having my friends contribute their fair share to the the costs.

Just out of curiosity, what qualifies someone as a "Reel professional"? there are many lodges and guiding outfits that simply put a warm body in the stern and have them travel 5 km to the hot spot and just drag some meat in the water, and yet these are considered guides, and there are others who have been in the business for decades and know damn near every possible movement each fish can make. To me these are the true pros. Its not just a job to them its a way of life and a passion for fish and people that 99% of the anglers just cannot emulate. Yet there are no courses or formal qualifications that separate the two. I have fished this coast for 40 years, does that make me qualified? Cause I sure don't feel like I should be.

 

[agentaqua]

Great questions and observations, finaddict. If I could share my experiences...

I think there are well-intended, successful, competent people in all industries and - in this case - on the "other side of the fence" (i.e. bona-fide charter operators verses taking "friends" out). I think experience, familiarity with the areas and professionalism will keep most people safe most of the time.

I think that the "rape, pillage and plunder" mentality - however - is often wrapped-up in some weird adolescent need to prove oneself through competition. That's an issue in both camps. Sometimes that comes out through allocation limits, and daily catches and catch limits. The more an industry becomes established - generally - the more professional the participants become - since they what know the consequences can be (as long as there is adequate enforcement).

However - generally-speaking - the ones with not just familiarity with the area - but with a sense of belonging and stewardship - tend not to get as overwhelmed by the so-called "rape, pillage and plunder" competition mentality. Fly-by-niters tend not to have this sense of belonging and stewardship as much in my experience.

In addition those making their living on the sea tend to understand the consequences better - and should be better prepared than those not.

And as expected - alcohol has been a factor in some bad decision-making...

That's how I see some differences...and similarities...

 

[SpringFever2359]

Here's how I see the difference..

There's the "Professional Guides" who are licensed,insured,qualified(with all tickets required) and do this either fulltime or part time.

Then there's the "Fly by Nighters" who have no license,may or may not be insured,may or may not be qualified, but still do it for $$cash either fulltime, part time,casual....

Then there is the rest of us recreational people who are not licensed,or qualified with all tickets (l have some) that take out there close buddy's and or family for some fun..
Will I stop taking my best friends or my dad/son?..never..will they help with gas or launch fees?..friends yes, family maybe lol

 

[uclueletcharters]

SPF552 - Exactly friends will always fish with friends and everyone supports that. The only people that would be pissed about the article are the one's doing non legit business It wouldn't hit any notes with licensed guides or true rec fishermen

 

[aheny]

And a tough one to police. I regularly take out buddies to go fishing and yes they are legitimately good friends. I am taking members of my hockey club out a couple of times in the next month and we will all split all costs equally. Having said that, it could be just as easy for me to take them all out and have them pay for everything. At that point is it buds going fishing together, or is that guiding? I get so much fish over the summer for myself, that any fish caught with these guys will be taken home by them. They will use my rods, my gear and I'll buy and prep all the bait (I am a little particular about that). we will go in my truck. Afterwards if we get anything, we will go to my place and I will fillet their catch and package in in vacuum bags. All in all it is pretty damn similar to what any guide (legit or not) would do. I guess the difference is I insist on splitting all costs equally.

I know one thing for sure,. After a day of doing this with my friends (most of whom are clueless about all the requirements for fishing), I am exhausted and there is no way in hell I would want to do it for a living, or even for spare cash. It is simply too damn much work. All you licensed guides have my utmost respect. You work VERY hard for the money and I am just too anal-retentive about my boat and my gear to let others beat the sh*t out of it all the time.

I had a conversation with Transport Canada about the legal definition of a "Passenger", which distinguishes a business from just fishing with friends. Money changing hands isn't the deciding factor, as there is no problem with having your friends chip in whatever amount you feel covers wear and tear and fuel.
If they pay in advance, its a business and you are a guide. If they pay after, then its not a business. This could allow some people to operate in a way which aggravates those who have invested the effort to create a legitimate business, but they are not actually breaking any laws.

To legally operate a saltwater guide business in Canada, all you need is an SVOP, MED A3, marine first aid, restricted radio operators license, Transport Canada business decal on your boat, an insurance company willing to cover you, and a business.

 

[uclueletcharters]

I think buddy fishing is obvious and a great way for friends to hang out and would not be mistaken for illegal business. You have some excellent points but I'm not sure if when the cash changes hands would make any difference as many businesses take payment for services after the job is done. Not sure I would count on that idea working in the eyes of Rev Can, you know how they work. They go on trips make payment just an average Joe looking to fish also hang around the docks, take pictures etc for an extended period of time then lay down the hammer and make there own assessment which can comes with a tax evasion charge several years of back pay and a penalty of up to 200% on top of what they assess your business at then you have to try and prove other wise. Folks that do it are definitely playing fire with their financial well being when going legit is not a big deal to get set up.

 

[uclueletcharters]

LOL come to think of it last season I saw the same guy on several different days sporadically through out the season and not from around here taking photos and writing down stuff in the parking lot. Was weird he was walking behind vehicles maybe writing down license numbers? Usually up near the hotel and on the road that goes past the docks in the AM then in the afternoon sporadically this individual was around the fish cleaning station and that's when the camera was taking pictures again but didn't seem to be zeroed in on the fish from where he was taking them from. lol. Perhaps a few others noticed this. He was not a DFO or TC guy.

Just glad I pay my taxes

 

[Aces]

I think buddy fishing is obvious and a great way for friends to hang out and would not be mistaken for illegal business. You have some excellent points but I'm not sure if when the cash changes hands would make any difference as many businesses take payment for services after the job is done. Not sure I would count on that idea working in the eyes of Rev Can, you know how they work. They go on trips make payment just an average Joe looking to fish also hang around the docks, take pictures etc for an extended period of time then lay down the hammer and make there own assessment which can comes with a tax evasion charge several years of back pay and a penalty of up to 200% on top of what they assess your business at then you have to try and prove other wise. Folks that do it are definitely playing fire with their financial well being when going legit is not a big deal to get set up.

Years ago i got baited by a couple of guys that insisted on paying cash to avoid the tax. I told them they would have to pay the HST regardless of how they paid. They were supposed to call me later that afternoon to confirm their charter but i never heard back from them....fairly suspicious like a "bait car".

When i got audited last year the Rev Canada investigator was from Victoria, a fisherman with his own boat and was quite savvy. He told me they were well aware of the underground economy in the guiding industry and were checking out all possible avenues.

 

[Fish Bait]

I would say the difference between buddy fishing and chartering is profit. If a person charges for gas, bait, even wear and tear on the fishing equipment and boat, etc., it is sharing costs. On the other hand, if someone charges that plus extra to cover the personal time commitment to the trip, it is chartering.