Time for federal hatcheries on the Fraser. Orcas need them.

What is the evidence that putting a moratorium on catching wild Chinook will make the stocks increase? We have run that policy with wild Coho for 20 years and I for one do not see that it has done any good.

GLG, your comment surprises me. Coho and chinook have somewhat different spawning and rearing needs and the fact wild coho have not fully recovered because there has been a moratorium on killing them has little bearing on what this potential management strategy ( ie. stop all harvesting) would have on wild chinook populations.

Coho tend to spawn and rear in small streams, many of which are urban and much more susceptible to habitat degradation, warming water, and other anthropogenic causes. Think how many Vancouver Island and Lower Mainland streams that once held robust coho populations, are now under parking lots or housing developments, or have been ruined by poor agricultural practices. Chinook however, especially interior Fraser stocks, spawn in much larger systems and often overwinter in the mainstem Fraser, giving them a bit of a buffer from the reasons coho populations are not recovering. I have worked on, camped on, and angled on most of the well-known Fraser River tributary chinook streams … I can tell you in most cases the habitat is there; what is lacking is spawners.

There is not much we can do about marine survival conditions, but putting more chinook spawners on the gravel is something that can be done, if we want to.
 
Dave it's not just my opinion that a moratorium on wild Chinook fishing is not needed it's from PSF. They are into year 3 of their 5 year study into the reasons why we have this problem. I will wait and see what comes out of this and then look at their recommendations. Till then I'm not ready to pull the trigger when the target is not in sight. After all we all want the same thing to have a health salmon stock. Let's let the science work as that keeps us from lying to ourselves.
 
Dave it's not just my opinion that a moratorium on wild Chinook fishing is not needed it's from PSF. They are into year 3 of their 5 year study into the reasons why we have this problem. I will wait and see what comes out of this and then look at their recommendations. Till then I'm not ready to pull the trigger when the target is not in sight. After all we all want the same thing to have a health salmon stock. Let's let the science work as that keeps us from lying to ourselves.

I'm all for research on this issue GLG, but whatever is found by the PSF won't mean much without spawners.
 
Here is a video for a couple of years back.
 
Dave said it perfect, unfortunetly people who are not around the Fraser or its interior tribs very much do not have the insight or experience with the #1 problem to these stocks. Keep the nets out of the river, numbers WILL rebound.
Sockeye numbers crash from overharvesting:solution lets net the springs harder....what happens to the Spring numbers? lol
But because it is a racial issue, nothing will be done. We will see the East coast cod scenario happen here very quickly..
 
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This below seems to me the biggest issue as @GLG states. Why has juvenille survival of fraser and other SOG river salmon dropped off and stayed so low? This low juvenille survival rate is UNIQUE to the SOG... there are much higher survival rates on WCVI, Central and North Coast of BC. Unless and until we know why this is the case and have solutions for it, restoring salmon populations in these river systems is not as simple as putting in some massive hatcheries to pump out more fry. Obviously it is a very complicated issue and we all would like it if there was a simple fix so that there were more wild salmon for all users groups to enjoy. Unfortunately it's not the case. Hatcheries may be part of the answer down the road, or they may not be. But at this point, with limited resources/funds, the time and money is best spent on finding out WHY juvenille salmon are not surviving at decent rates once they enter the ocean and WHAT can be done to rectify it. Hoping PSF's work and others find these answers sooner than later as time is of the essence.

Dave consider that in the 70's we had a smolt to adult return ratio of between 5% and 15%, now we are getting 1% to 3% and sometime less than that. You can put spawners back but if the smolts don't survive then you're not fixing the problem. PSF just posted on this website a progress report, here is a link to the PDF.
https://www.psf.ca/sites/default/files/FINAL - Email version PSF_Salish_Sea_Project_2016_Report_.pdf
 
I totally agree, marine survival is the key issue here, and I don't propose this is the absolute solution to the problem but people have to understand that for every chinook adult taken from the Horsefly, Morkill, Willow, Bowron, Cottonwood, Nechako, Stuart, etc, etc, is one less set of genes for this particular river. Less gene pool means less genetic diversity for fish living in a changing world. The numbers in some systems are at a critical low and what's needed is a boost in the numbers of those genes and that means more spawners.
 
The LAST thing that is needed is more hatcheries, more narrowing of the genetic diversity of these fish, and pumping out of ever more genetically similar fish selected to best survive in concrete tanks for the first part of their lives. In order for these fish to increase in number it has been mentioned there needs to be more Chinook spawners (not egg donors) which would mean massively decreased utilization by all sectors of the fishery. Orcas can eat a variety of salmon species in the late summer and fall, but rely on Chinook almost exclusively in the winter and spring as its the only species large enough to feed them during that time, so why do we allow sport fisheries on immature Chinook all winter if we are really interested in the Orcas? Its a taboo subject of seal and sea lion culls, while seals are not an important predator of salmon in the open ocean, various studies have shown they are of juvenile salmon, so are a direct competitor to Orcas and are not an endangered species . They have learned to come to the table for easy meals of the massive releases of hatchery coho and chinook smolts in factory rivers. Its a fair point perhaps they shouldn't be culled for taking advantage of our unnatural practice of flooding estuaries with fat, predator naive salmon smolts waiting for their next pellet meal to fall from the sky though.
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The LAST thing that is needed is to try to solve this complex problem with a with an incredibly difficult "solution" as complete closure of the Chinook fishery. A simplistic, single focus approach will not be implementable, nor will it be successful over time. The Area 19-20 sport fishing takes approximately 2-4% of the total numbers of all returning Fraser River chinook. So we shut down salmon fishing to create all sorts of negative impacts and pain on local economies all over the coast of a $1billion sector to save 2-4% of the population - huh? Good luck in trying to tell the commercial and especially the FN's they are completely shut down! Not to mention the public outcry and political aversion of a seal cull!

While I agree to and would support a reduced chinook fishery (we have been doing this increasingly over the years with increased regulations and localized closures) to help runs return, a complete closure is not the answer. It didn't work for coho for the last 10+ years and it will not work for chinook either. You need a multi-pronged approach of increase hatchery production, reduced harvesting, reducing Alaskan by-catch harvesting, more habitat restoration, and committed watershed and water resource management to support increased salmon survival. The DFO Wild Salmon Policy with it's decreased harvesting rates, while decreasing hatchery production has failed. Time to try a multi-pronged approach solve a complex problem with many tricky variables to contend with IMHO.
 
All these openings should help the Orcas and put a lot more fish on the spawning beds....
http://www-ops2.pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fraserriver/firstnations/HTMLs/CommunalOpeningTimes.html
This opening is going to be a bloodbath on endangered Stuart socks and springs....

Maybe a long term solution would be to pay FN to keep the nets out of the river.
Pay for their allotment to go towards the rec fishers which in turn would help the local VI and other area economys.
Just a thought...
FYI...they are selling springs for 2$ a lb right now.
 
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The LAST thing that is needed is to try to solve this complex problem with a with an incredibly difficult "solution" as complete closure of the Chinook fishery.
If you are referring to my post no where do I refer to a complete Chinook closure, but do suggest a winter chinook closure, or at least reduced takes when the Orcas depend exclusively on smaller populations of immature fish could be in order. But you do bring up a good point. Very clearly Chinook stocks are not sufficient to support the current commercial, sports, FN and needs of Orcas. Stocks keep declining despite efforts at habitat restoration and over the decades construction of dozens of hatcheries and massive increases in the numbers of smolts pumped out by those hatcheries. Maybe that is the only way to save the Chinook species. Stop the damaging factory production of inbred Chinook smolts , stop fishing the remaining wild fish. Yes I know its a a pipe dream that will never happen, sporties, FN and Commies will continue to fight over a dwindling number of Chinook, each blaming the other (although Whitebucks post above is pretty depressing that so many chinook are being killed right now on the Fraser on FN openings) , masssive hatchery overproduction will continue to pump genetically inferior fish that swamp out wild smolts, and we will continue to prove we have learned NOTHING by allowing deep pocket commercial sport fishing interests pressure the building of new Chinook hatcheries on rivers like the Wannock for a quick fix for US lodge customers at the long term expense of wild salmon.
 
Good post California. Until sports fishers decide to actually stop harvesting these endangered chinooks, First Nations will continue to fish them to near extinction. Sad but true and as usual, it's the sporties who have to take the high ground and start this initiative.
 
Good post California. Until sports fishers decide to actually stop harvesting these endangered chinooks, First Nations will continue to fish them to near extinction. Sad but true and as usual, it's the sporties who have to take the high ground and start this initiative.

Dave are you saying that FN's are targeting the endangered runs and not the CU's that are not of a concern? If so then you need to contact these guys with your evidence as we don't want to create the situation that brought about the 2009 event.

"In 2009, a serious incident on the Fraser River during the summer salmon season demonstrated the deteriorating situation on the Fraser between competing interests in the lower Fraser fishery. A confrontation between a respected First Nations chief and a boat containing 2 recreational anglers escalated into violence among fishermen, and resulted in the discharge of a pellet gun into the face of the chief. The anglers fled and charges were never laid, but the confrontation galvanized First Nations and sport fishing leaders into action. Fortunately cooler heads prevailed and resulted in the beginning of dialogue seeking solutions to growing conflicts."

http://fraserriverpeacemakers.ca/
 
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FN were/are targeting chinooks and I suspect very few actual FN fishers (I'm not including band managers, chief's, or fisheries reps from bands) realize nor care that some of these stocks are in danger. I have no idea what started the confrontation in 2009 and I applaud the efforts by all to make sure it doesn't happen again.
 
Common occurance during barfishing season when they're drift netting.
Purposely setting to drift into the bar guys anchored up at Grassy.
The incident I think in 2009 happened because the bar guys kid almost drowned after they drifted into into the boats for the 4th or 5th time that day.

A lot more to the story than what is being posted...
 
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Good post California. Until sports fishers decide to actually stop harvesting these endangered chinooks, First Nations will continue to fish them to near extinction. Sad but true and as usual, it's the sporties who have to take the high ground and start this initiative.

I think this is a pretty naïve position to believe that if the recreational sector unilaterally stopped harvesting chinooks from endangered runs that the FN's would reduce their harvesting in a significant and verifiable way. Do you have any evidence to support this, or is it just an opinion?

Are you familiar with the DFO regs. for areas 19 and 20, especially the zone 1 and slot size restrictions we are under? Do you realize that SVI has some of the most restrictive harvesting regulations on the whole coast? Do you realize that area 19 and 20 fishers harvest only on average 2-4% of the total number of Fraser River chinook, and even less than for those from endangered runs? How does shutting down ALL chinook retention and possibly ALL salmon retention in the process to save 2-4% of the returning chinook solve anything? It doesn't and it won't, other than punish one sector, and the hundreds of local businesses, communities and regional economies that make it up!

It not just the "sporties" that have to take the high ground, ALL harvesting sectors need to for there to long term success at increasing wild chinook numbers. Like to know why you think the rec sector has to take the "high ground" to start this initiative? What do you think the rec sector has been doing for the last 2 decades with all the harvesting restrictions we come under? Pinning this solely on the recreational sector as the only ones that need to be cut back sounds a lot like what certain anti-rec. sector staff at DFO and eastern based politicians have been recommending for the last decade. A narrow focussed approach that is unworkable IMHO. All sectors need to work together to help increase the Fraser River chinook numbers in a multi-pronged approach as described in the posts above for any meaningful long term success. My 2 bits!
 
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I brought up a total all fisheries (including FN) moratorium as a suggestion for one specific reason. If FN were told by DFO that the sport sector is pushing them for a complete closure including FN and were prepared to launch a public campaign outlining the reasons for declines...including their fisheries and the environmental consequences. FN would back off on their campaign against us and maybe would be more receptive to working with us to pressure government in implementing a recovery plan...which would benefit us all. If you want to win you have to play the game...and the game is poker.
 
Well said profisher. Whole in the Water, I know the sacrifices the rec sector has made, and yes, what I am suggesting is just my opinion.
The argument by FN has always been that when the rec sector or commies are allowed to fish, FN does too. Like it or not that is entrenched in law and they will not voluntarily stop fishing until they are the last user group standing. And even then it will take some very skillful negotiations.
 
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