The real reason of the Thompson collapse

[Fishmyster]

California. Do you know if there is any freshwater plankton assessments done for the Thompson-Shuswap or Chilcooton waterways? Is there any long term or annual sampling procedure in place for indicator wild salmon streams? As this Sockeye season was so bad do you know of any efforts done that could indicate if there was health plankton available in these waters for 2013-2014?

 

[Dave]

Do some googling fm, there is a ton of limnology data, including plankton surveys, for the Shuswap and Chilcotin areas. DFO has a whole group based out of Cultus Lake doing this and I have to say for someone who is so keen about this subject, I'm surprised you didn't know that.

 

[shuswap]

A couple of things:

1. I’m not quite sure if all the logistics (biological, physical and financial) and even practically have been considered regarding this video surveillance of raw water being pumped continuously past it. Quite a few things immediately come to mind. Might want to revisit it. Just saying. Not trying to ruffle any feathers just saying it could be a challenge to say the least.

2. As Dave says much of this data already exists, especially for large lakes albeit not what it could be as it was back in the days. My recommendation is not to reinvent the wheel and instead research existing sources before trying to develop solutions to issues that might not need a lot of BTUs.

 

[wildmanyeah]

I experience some of the best lake fishing of my life in the Thompson region this year. Really all due to two factors 1. there were far less people do to the fires and 2. the fire ash sparked huge biomass growth in the lakes. Had one of the best fishing experience on Kamloops lake.

Now i do know the Thompson has huge dewatering issues but I don't think loss of biodiversity is the main cause in the downward death spiral the steelhead stock is on. Commercial, Aboriginal and recreational fishing combined with poor ocean survival conditions is the main reason for its downfall. Hard to blame the rivers when they count the smolts going back to the ocean and almost no return.

https://phys.org/news/2017-06-steelhead-trout-population-declines-linked.html

http://www.dailyastorian.com/Local_News/20170904/warning-signs-for-salmon

http://marinesurvivalproject.com/research_activity/list/juvenile-salmon-studies-ca/

 

[california]

California. Do you know if there is any freshwater plankton assessments done for the Thompson-Shuswap or Chilcooton waterways? Is there any long term or annual sampling procedure in place for indicator wild salmon streams? As this Sockeye season was so bad do you know of any efforts done that could indicate if there was health plankton available in these waters for 2013-2014?

Fishmyster - I'm not aware of any data on streams, The data Dave mentions is done on the lakes where the sockeye rear, not the streams.
Would your theory on invertebrate abundance be as relevant for Sockeye? They do not spend a lot of time in the stream, they go to the lake right away. The invertebrate abundance should effect species that spend time in the streams the most. So the most effected should be Steelhead, followed by Coho, Chinook, Sockeye Chums and Pinks.

 

[onefish]

From a practical point of view. The bugs present or not, in October 2017 have zippo to do with the juveniles that were present 3 to 5 years ago.
What did these rocks look like for the previous 10 years or so at this same time of year?
Maybe this condition is normal for this area at this time of year, or, maybe you are on to something, who knows without prior data.
Thompson steelhead primarily spawn in tribs such as the Nicola, Deadman and Coldwater.
I would assume many of these juveniles then rear in these tribs before heading to sea, thus the bug situation in these tribs would be far more significant than the T itself.
IMO, farmers stealing the water, ocean survival, gill nets catching returning adults, are the major factors in the decline of T steelhead, not the lack of bugs.

 

[california]

I experience some of the best lake fishing of my life in the Thompson region this year. Really all due to two factors 1. there were far less people do to the fires and 2. the fire ash sparked huge biomass growth in the lakes. Had one of the best fishing experience on Kamloops lake.

Fire ash is very alkaline from the potassium carbonate content and it makes sense that it would fertilize the lakes. This may be good for the rivers as the ash nutrients and increased alkalinity of runoff should increase the ph of the rivers in the area as well

 

[Whitebuck]

The nets stay out of the Fraser, this run will see an immediate rebound.
As someone who fishes the Thompson ALOT...I can tell you the trout population on this system is very healthy.
Kenny kudos to your efforts, IMO it would be better if you could help us find a way to keep the nets out of the Fraser!!

 

[onefish]

Just to add some perspective to the "no bugs" theory. Last year at about this time a guy was busted for keeping 26 rather good sized trout in the T. The trout he kept are old enough that they would probably have been chowing down on bugs at about the same time as this years returning adults were juveniles.
If you read the article you can see from the photos that the T still grows some pretty decent sized trout.
http://infotel.ca/newsitem/angler-convicted-for-poaching-on-closed-thompson-river/it46027

 

[Fishmyster]

Do some googling fm, there is a ton of limnology data, including plankton surveys, for the Shuswap and Chilcotin areas. DFO has a whole group based out of Cultus Lake doing this and I have to say for someone who is so keen about this subject, I'm surprised you didn't know that.

Thanks Dave. I will look that material up when I have time. I knew some of it was out there but thought someone could fast track me to recent say 10 year trend in the shuswap area?

 

[Fishmyster]

A couple of things:

1. I’m not quite sure if all the logistics (biological, physical and financial) and even practically have been considered regarding this video surveillance of raw water being pumped continuously past it. Quite a few things immediately come to mind. Might want to revisit it. Just saying. Not trying to ruffle any feathers just saying it could be a challenge to say the least.

2. As Dave says much of this data already exists, especially for large lakes albeit not what it could be as it was back in the days. My recommendation is not to reinvent the wheel and instead research existing sources before trying to develop solutions to issues that might not need a lot of BTUs.

My concept of auto monitoring inverts, fish and water quality my not be as complicated as I first described. Presently I can get on my computer and view water levels on many streams thru out the province. There is equipment out there for ph meter and logging. The aquaculture industry uses such tools in there hatcheries. It would take some creative minds to devise the bio monitoring station but not impossible. My idea was more of a large aquarium with a flow thru water feed, no pumps needed. One issue of water chemistry nature is that contaminating events can happen very quickly and then the water restores to a non lethal state quickly after hiding the cause of the contaminant. I am just trying to think outside the box and pin down what could be stressing the ecology.

Some of the data that doesn't seem to exist much is annual stream invertebrate trends for B.C. streams. If you know of any please send them to me. ty.
Attached is some of what I did have sent to me. If you read thru look at the invert populations for 2012-2014. The population drops to 20%in 2014 from what it was in 2014. The people conducting the study couldn't conclude why the drop in population happened with the random water quality tests they had. They did mention high levels of aluminum that should be investigated. Again, the nature of water chemistry doesn't necessarily reveal toxicity in random sampling and continuous monitoring could be done automatically with the assistance of invertebrates and technology. My fantasy anyway.

 

[Fishmyster]

Fishmyster - I'm not aware of any data on streams, The data Dave mentions is done on the lakes where the sockeye rear, not the streams.
Would your theory on invertebrate abundance be as relevant for Sockeye? They do not spend a lot of time in the stream, they go to the lake right away. The invertebrate abundance should effect species that spend time in the streams the most. So the most effected should be Steelhead, followed by Coho, Chinook, Sockeye Chums and Pinks.

I agree fully with you here. Steelhead have always been my favorite fish to angle for so this is where most of my observations and analysis is targeted. Chemistry events that alter biological or benthic composition may not disrupt all species up the food chain equally.

Some more informative information for you guys: My angling career started about 1975. As a child I spent many days in the streams or on lakes fishing. In the mid 1990s about five years into my steelhead guiding there was an incident well embedded in my memory. There is a big rock in the Stamp river at the head of the "store pool". I often nudged my boat against the rock to hold position as my guests cast across the fast water to a steelhead lay. Every time we bumped the rock thousands of small midge like bugs would take to the air. After a few casts we would have to leave from insect inhalation. Well one day they were all gone! Now these insects had been there for all of the first years of my fishing career all winter long and now there were none. I was sick to my stomach knowing well that something bad had happened. Rumor was there had been some acidic rain happening and that fisheries didn't know what it was going to do to the fish. I had called my local MOE biologist to report the situation. He was the representative for freshwater biology. His comment was, "don't worry mr. Myers, they just quit hatching for the season". Well the quit hatching for the next twenty years too and still to this day don't hatch there anymore. After the high water receded that spring there was no bugs anymore of any species. The algae was gone, the once common cased caddis were gone, even the staining on the rock was gone. It looked like bleach had been poured down the river! And then later in the spring when the sun came out the dydimo algae bloomed. Another reaction was that salmon carcasses slowed in decomposition. This was all something I did not understand back then but am much more educated about now. Evidence of this same effect is in most coastal streams I have visited.
Another vivid memory of mine was time I spent growing up on French creek. My grand parents lived on the creek and I lived with them from 12-15years old. would have been 1981-1983. As kids we were often told to get out of the house and go play down by the creek. We would come back complaining that the bugs were too bad! Yes that creek had lots of bugs. There was everything from whirlygig beetles to damsel flies to cased caddis to snails to stoneflies...ect. There was also lots of green algae. I used to extract caddis and feed the fish often. Well in 2014, while looking for a place to bow hunt, I decided to look and see if even French creek had suffered the same fate as the Stamp river. I went to the exact same pools I played as a child. There wasn't a bug anywhere in sight not in the water, under the rocks or in the air! I was not surprised.
There are many more similar experiences to share but I will save them for another time. I will ad though that I have been looking for any documentation of invertebrate population trends from the same time era of when I witnessed the demise and there isn't much to be found. I have talked to our local "anadromous fish specialist". When questioned about invertebrates he said that is another departments responsibility. When I asked him about water quality he said, "that is the environmental protection departments responsibility". When I go to either of these departments the response is that the fresh water biologists are the people to talk to. Yes the typical run around.
So it is difficult for me to fully back my claims with scientific papers or reports because the people responsible have not kept proper records or documentation of the losses. If anyone knows of invertebrate sampling from back in the 1980s I would be happy to see them to match with modern day observations.

 

[Dave]

I can recall doing some invertebrate sampling on the Thompson River near Savona and Walachin, for the International Pacific Salmon Fisheries Commission, back in the 80's. This data may be available online, good luck finding it.

 

[Fishmyster]

Thanks Dave. About an hour of searching and reading but no luck yet. There sure was some really good science done in the past! Possibly the invertebrate sample work is sitting in a box and hasn't been uploaded? If historic records of Thompson invertebrate community structure have been lost for good, do you have personal recollection that I could go by? I would like to visit the same sites and make a comparison.

 

[Capilano]

Thanks Dave. About an hour of searching and reading but no luck yet. There sure was some really good science done in the past! Possibly the invertebrate sample work is sitting in a box and hasn't been uploaded? If historic records of Thompson invertebrate community structure have been lost for good, do you have personal recollection that I could go by? I would like to visit the same sites and make a comparison.

1979-80 Thompson River Biological Survey - Savona and Walhachin
http://a100.gov.bc.ca/appsdata/acat...75785596_fa40fa9f2a414358baa2d67fe37da781.pdf

Selected Biological Studies of the Thompson River System
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/Library/15020.pdf

Assemblage Structure of Riparian and Drifting Invertebrates Along Environmental Gradients in Two Streams of Southern BC
https://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/library/ffip/Vadas_RL1997.pdf


Related: Sediment quality in the Fraser River basin
https://manualzz.com/doc/18172732/3.5-sediment-quality-in-the-fraser-river-basin-by-roxanne...

Potential Effects of Contaminants on Fraser River Sockeye Salmon
https://www.watershed-watch.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Exh-826-NonRT.pdf

 

[Dave]

Thanks Dave. About an hour of searching and reading but no luck yet. There sure was some really good science done in the past! Possibly the invertebrate sample work is sitting in a box and hasn't been uploaded? If historic records of Thompson invertebrate community structure have been lost for good, do you have personal recollection that I could go by? I would like to visit the same sites and make a comparison.

I think what Capilano has posted is far better than my memory ... pretty sure I was involved in the second report listed above.
I'm sure there are tons of valuable research papers sitting in boxes, just waiting to get looked at again and finally published. At the technical level, I was part of many projects that didn't get published, mainly due to lack of funding for analytical work.

 

[Fishmyster]

Thanks Capilano that is exactly the stuff I was looking for! The second one has the best information on macro stream inverts. I will read deeper for sample sites and seasons then plan a comparison survey mission. Could be interesting!

 

[agentaqua]

Ya - thanks Capilano. That BCMoF forestry library link you posted (https://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/library/) has lots of older stuff on there - bit of an exercise getting through it as they don't have much of an index that I can find - but some good stuff in there!

have a look at these ones:
https://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/library/FFIP/Bradford_MJ2000CanJFishAquatSci.pdf
https://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/library/FFIP/Holtby_LB1990CanJFishAquatSci.pdf
https://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/library/FFIP/Culp_JM1986JNAmBentholSoc.pdf
https://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfd/library/FFIP/Reece_PF2001CanJFishAquatSci.pdf

 

[Fishmyster]

Well thank you California for finding this report.
http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/library/15020.pdf
I have read thru this informative report. On page 138 is the invertebrate sampling done at Savona in 1975. The survey indicates a far greater abundance and diversity of inverts than I found in 2017, which was none!!! 1975 invertebrate sampling indicates ecology was adequate to support reasonable fish populations which was confirmed by s/h returns. My 2017 video survey indicates no future for s/h. In the 1974 invertebrate survey it is recorded that there was hundreds of inverts occupying a .11 m2 area of stream bed including up to 10 species of what should be visible macro invertebrates. 2017 video indicates 0 diversity! I still am amazed how this missing ecology still goes under the radar???
Dave, If my video did possibly miss all the benthic ecology please inform me of how. I am willing to visit the area this April to reconfirm and sample for inverts again and do want to make sure it is done right and in the same manor as done in the report.

 

[Dave]

Fishmyster, that was a long time ago! If this is the same study, I was part of an IPSFC team to install and monitor the artificial substrate samplers at Savona and Wallachin. If you want to do this again using the same methodology ... well, that's a lot of work.
Good on you for taking this on.