Shell is closing all California hydrogen stations
- Thread starter Aquaholic
- Start date
sly_karma
Crew Member
Hydrogen is worse for electricity demand than EV, two thirds of the energy is used in production, storage and distribution before it turns the wheels of a vehicle - and that's for green hydrogen. Grey and blue hydrogen are just fossil fuel pretending to be eco-friendly, ie, the oil and gas industry trying to flip consumers to another centralized production- distribution-retail modeled on the existing FF system.
Where H2 could make sense is applications that require long runs between refuels. Trains, ships, longhaul trucks, mining amd industrial operations come to mind. Massive batteries - or multiple batteries in a quick-change system - is heavy on resources and the vehicles themselves become so heavy they become locked in a spiral of reduced payload - more battery - reduced payload.
The other area where hydrogen has real potential is as a way to store energy. The easiest way would be as a fuel cell, the basic technology used in H2 cars: use electricity to electrolyse water into H2 and O2, store them until needed, then combine to produce electricity and water. Large, grid-scale fuel cells could be used to help fill the troughs and flatten the peaks of grid demand.
Either of these are a more buildable option than the tens of thousands of H2 storage/retail stations that would be needed across the country for hydrogen private passenger vehicles to be successful.
fish brain
Crew Member
Actually a hydrogen future is more possible than most people think. There are companies working on developing "White or Geological" Hydrogen, which has the potential to be a game changer. Now it will be a chicken and egg problem. We have the supply, but we have no market, We have no market because we don't have the equipment to use it, we don't have the equipment to use it because there is no distribution infrastructure. And around the argument goes. We now need business to tell the governments that they can make money off this, and the governments need to invest in the infrastructure.
I rememebr when Toyota had the first verion of the Merai with a $35,000 discount.
You can fill up at the Esso at Westview road and Highway 99 and 4 other places in BC
As of June 2023, five stations are open in HTEC's BC network. HTEC opened the stations in Vancouver and Burnaby in partnership with Shell, and the stations in North Vancouver, Victoria and Kelowna are in partnership with 7-Eleven Canada.
www.toyota.ca
With a range of up to 647 km on a single fill Vancouver/Kelowna should be possible. Of course if you run out unlike an Electric where you can plug in at someone's house, you just can't hook your Hydrogen vehicle up to the nearest Magical Garden Hose (symbolistict turn of phrase)
You can fill up at the Esso at Westview road and Highway 99 and 4 other places in BC
As of June 2023, five stations are open in HTEC's BC network. HTEC opened the stations in Vancouver and Burnaby in partnership with Shell, and the stations in North Vancouver, Victoria and Kelowna are in partnership with 7-Eleven Canada.
Hydrogen Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles (FCEV) | Toyota Canada
Learn about Toyota’s Hydrogen Fuel Cell Technology and get to know Mirai - Toyota’s hydrogen Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle (FCEV).
www.toyota.ca
With a range of up to 647 km on a single fill Vancouver/Kelowna should be possible. Of course if you run out unlike an Electric where you can plug in at someone's house, you just can't hook your Hydrogen vehicle up to the nearest Magical Garden Hose (symbolistict turn of phrase)
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sly_karma
Crew Member
It's still the same centralized production-distribution-storage-retail network like oil and gas. Most of it still needs to be built to bring it to scale. The FF industry spent decades doing it, but there was little competition from other energy sources. The hydrogen industry has to achieve something similar in a handful of years, but where is the funding? The auto industry has already invested its money in battery electric vehicles, because the production and distribution systems are already in place, all that is needed is the retail side. The barrier to adoption is very low compared to the billions needed to make H2 from any source available on street corners. Drivers can potentially produce their own fuel at home, it will be very hard to pull people back to market-priced fuels of any kind once they get a taste of that.
fish brain
Crew Member
I agree with pretty much everything you said. You articulated my chicken and egg conundrum well.
With regards to fueling battery electric at home. I foresee a future where EV charger are metered and charged a different rate, or some other means of providing the income to provide the expanded generation needed to supply the EV market as they become more prevalent.
Aquaholic
Crew Member
And to make up for the gasoline tax that is embedded into the price per liter. They have to make that up somehow.
sly_karma
Crew Member
Agreed, although all vehicle users should demand that the taxes collected be placed in a specific fund dedicated to roads, and said taxes assessed in such a way that address use of infrastructure.
I'd like to see km driven and axle loading factored into road user charges, which would actually see EVs paying a little more. It's time the trucking industry paid its way, they beat the roads pretty hard yet pay little. 80% of road wear and tear done by 10% of the vehicles.
