SFI-Open House Campbell River

since 65-70% of the catch is coming from the lodge/charter sector why not put better recording requirements there.

Irrelevant there fish4all because 100% of the recreational halibut TAC was caught by recreational fishermen.
It matters not if I go to a lodge or use a charter to fish for halibut.
It's me that fishes for halibut not the lodge or the charter.
Your statement implys that somehow the charter or lodge is responsible for the TAC.
False ...... nice try..... won't work as most are smarter then that.
GLG
 
Wow that is a big statement. Where did you get that number.

wow you guys are defensive. The number came from the DFO groundfish unit. The point is if you focus on the lodges and charters (say mandatory logbook) you are capturing 65-70% of the catch. I am only talking about recording catch.
 
Irrelevant there fish4all because 100% of the recreational halibut TAC was caught by recreational fishermen.
It matters not if I go to a lodge or use a charter to fish for halibut.
It's me that fishes for halibut not the lodge or the charter.
Your statement implys that somehow the charter or lodge is responsible for the TAC.
False ...... nice try..... won't work as most are smarter then that.
GLG

completely irrelevant post glg. all i was pointing at was better recording for where the bulk of the fish is being taken from. seems like a no brainer..... but then again.
 
I did not know you were posting about "better recording"
Regardless how do you know that the guides/lodges arent recording there catch?
Seems to me that most, if not all, are doing so right now.
If they are not perhaps you should be talking to DFO and not us.
GLG
 
Why is the commercial sector continuing to use this useless statement. Lodges and guides are an outlet for rec guys to get fish, so we are all in the same umbrella. Fish 4 all please respond to this I want to here your side on this, and help me understand why the sector feels like guides and lodges are under a different category?

Because it serves their purpose to see the recreational sector divided!!! The sooner we all band together the better. Thanks High 5 for seeing through that statement he made.

And...for the record the vast majority of lodges fully participate in the log book program, and the SFI is working hard to help expand the program to all guide operators. The program is still in its infancy, so with time we should expect to see improved participation, but again this is only a small portion of the overall angling effort.

Notwithstanding, I still favor a halibut tag system where the license is turned in to DFO at season's end. That way we get 100% of the catch reported. Then we can put an end to garbage statements the commercial sector is throwing at us.

By the way F4all, the ITQ system with no requirement for the quota holder to actually fish it if you really study how it progresses over time eventually leads to the small single operators being squeezed out of the fishery as the big guys buy up quota and use fewer and larger vessels to catch their quota. Just go and study what has happened in countries that are 30 years ahead of us. When you do, it will become abundantly clear there is no future for small vessel owners in this fishery as time marches on. I'm sure you already know this, but the guys who are leasing quota just to survive are slowly being squeezed out as their profits are undercut by purchasing quota for $5.50 a pound and then when the big buyers flood the market and the price drops their margins are squeezed to the point where it is hard to break even. Too many seasons like that and you know the outcome as a business owner. Wake up! Your days are numbered unless you are able to change the system to require the quota owner to actually fish their quota.
 
Searun...I agree. Jimmy has the ability to control the entire fishery to his benefit under the present system. He is the largest quota holder and also one of the largest retailers. The small guys get screwed and big business laughs all the way to the bank.
 
Irrelevant there fish4all because 100% of the recreational halibut TAC was caught by recreational fishermen.
It matters not if I go to a lodge or use a charter to fish for halibut.
It's me that fishes for halibut not the lodge or the charter.
Your statement implys that somehow the charter or lodge is responsible for the TAC.
False ...... nice try..... won't work as most are smarter then that.
GLG

I'm not sure about the rest of the provinces, but here in British Columbia, any hunter who uses the services of guide or outffitter when hunting is required under the BC wildlife act to fill out a mandatory report and declaration. This report lists all information including; Guide, Hunter, area and all species harvested etc.. All reports are submitted to the ministry.

Hunting guides are no different than sport fishing guides other than one helps harvest animals and one helps harvest fish. If it works for hunting, why can't it work for fishing(reports could be sent to dfo)? For some reason the fishing guides keep trying to dance around this.
 
BC boy there are no guides trying to dance around this. The SFI and WCFGA are actively working to promote the log book program which has only recently started, not to mention DFO wasn't ready to expand it until mid summer of 2012. Moreover, the program is voluntary at this point and I believe DFO isn't yet in a position to expand the program to mandatory status, but we would support that 100% if DFO could find the funding to do so. The facts are clear, guides are not dancing around anything on this subject. That said, the issue of catch reporting is beyond the guide/lodge sector. If the commercial fishing sector truly desires accurate recreational catch data, then lobby DFO to fund a program so all anglers are required to record their catch and turn in that data at the end of the season. Meantime let's not continue trying to pit the recreational sector against itself.
 
Searun...I agree. Jimmy has the ability to control the entire fishery to his benefit under the present system. He is the largest quota holder and also one of the largest retailers. The small guys get screwed and big business laughs all the way to the bank.

Absolutely, it is a brilliant business strategy, and in fact at this point because the big buyers control the market they can effectively drive pricing in whichever direction best suits their purposes at the time. There is no need for one or two owners to have full control of the market either. If they did, they would be at risk of crossing our Federal Competition laws. Thus the benefit of the present situation because they do not need to have full control of the market to gain a similar benefit. They are able to drive price in a direction that suits them while not having the risk associated with full ownership...in other words they do not have to dance around the anti-competition laws because they do not have a monopolistic hold on the market.

Over time the only way for anyone still seeking to remain viable in this form of ITQ is to either get big or get out, because without an economy of scale it is difficult to exist when someone else effectively controls the sale price of your fish to the processor.
 
BC boy there are no guides trying to dance around this. The SFI and WCFGA are actively working to promote the log book program which has only recently started, not to mention DFO wasn't ready to expand it until mid summer of 2012. Moreover, the program is voluntary at this point and I believe DFO isn't yet in a position to expand the program to mandatory status, but we would support that 100% if DFO could find the funding to do so. The facts are clear, guides are not dancing around anything on this subject. That said, the issue of catch reporting is beyond the guide/lodge sector. If the commercial fishing sector truly desires accurate recreational catch data, then lobby DFO to fund a program so all anglers are required to record their catch and turn in that data at the end of the season. Meantime let's not continue trying to pit the recreational sector against itself.
Glad to hear that guides are improving the log book system, eventually moving to a madatory system is the way to go. For all rec fisherman (guided or un guided, the halibut tag system(tags for individual hali) vs halibut stamp might keep slightly better numbers and sounds like a good idea. Or go with a stamp and require catch to be recorded on the licence similar to springs, have prepaid postage on the back of the licence and a the end of the season drop it in the mail box. Its not just the commercial sector that wants accurate rec. catch data, from all the chat on this forum,it sounds like many rec fishermen want it too.
 
To add to this I will, as I have been all along, suggest that I agree fully that a change to rid us of non working quota holders is needed. "Use it or loose it" as some have called it.

I would also add that along with that and even more importantly in my opinion. the vessel quotas should have remained and must go back to being the property of the crown. Then ONLY leased( not obtain ownership) from the crown at a reasonable rate through ether license fees or something else that will provide a realistic expectation of profit for the working fisherman, without driving the price beyond the reach of average families and businesses that make up the population of this country. there should be no option to sublease this quota (as you do not own it) for profit The only aspect of an IVQ that should resemble an ITQ in anyway is the mechanism needed to transfer quota to properly account for and utilize BY-Catch.

Yes I realizable that there has been much money invested by a few after the original gifting and that needs to be addressed in the process. I do not however believe it is the responsibility of the sport sector to provide this compensation in any form as we continue to work towards achieving a fairer portion of the Canadian Crown TAC. DFO and federal Government created this highly flawed and destructive mess and they NEED to start cleaning it up PERIOD.

Again this is how I see it.
 
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owner operated laws are not likly to happen althow even i would like it to be; most of the salmon seine fleet is not oweroperated how will jimmy fish 20 or thirty seine boats; there is a small percentage of total allowable catch that can be landed on a licenced halibut boat; i think it is around sixty ;thousand lbs; this was meant to keep quotas from being gobbled up by a few players ;halibut quota to be owned must be atteched to a boat with a halibut licence;however it can be leased to other halibut licened boats; laws a little different in alaska where quota holder must be on board boat when his quota is fished;
 
wstcoaster;261448 laws a little different in alaska where quota holder must be on board boat when his quota is fished;[/QUOTE said:
I don't hate that either. actually brought that up the other evening.Something similar could be used here to allow a fisherman to still fish his quota in the case of major breakdown to his vessel,or some other season ending catastrophe. Only he would not be leasing his quota to that boat (as he would not own it) but be employing the services of the boat and or captain and crew to continue fishing his remaining leased quota.Same as a truck driver having to rent a tractor to continue hauling wen his breaks.
 
halibut quota to be owned must be atteched to a boat with a halibut licence;however it can be leased to other halibut licened boats; laws a little different in alaska where quota holder must be on board boat when his quota is fished;

And how many of these boats were pulled from the water as soon as the industry managed to get the great Halibut quota rip off scam approved by government and have since sat as moss growing derelicts never fished because the new fish lord slipper skippers no longer have to do any actual fishing? They can sit back and collect their Halibut quota lease checks forever. Seems like welfare to me, provided by the government supported gifting of a common resource.
 
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well westcoaster I can agree with you on the fact that under the ITQ system it has allowed large owners to gobble up the majority of boats and gain control over both production and processing. Ultimately over time the small owner operators will be squeezed out of the business which in my view isn't a good thing for the fishing industry. I think the only way to avert certain disaster in the industry is to put an end to the current ITQ system in favor of something like Ray described where you fish it or lose it back to the crown. Ultimately the crown should hold ownership over the actual quota.
 
Glad to hear that guides are improving the log book system, eventually moving to a madatory system is the way to go. For all rec fisherman (guided or un guided, the halibut tag system(tags for individual hali) vs halibut stamp might keep slightly better numbers and sounds like a good idea. Or go with a stamp and require catch to be recorded on the licence similar to springs, have prepaid postage on the back of the licence and a the end of the season drop it in the mail box. Its not just the commercial sector that wants accurate rec. catch data, from all the chat on this forum,it sounds like many rec fishermen want it too.

1) Record halibut on the Lic similar to springs but add a length measurement.
2) Annual limit on lic
3) Return your lic when purchasing your NEW lic for a 5 $ Credit.. then there is some accountability.
4) Ensure the sportfishers fish are not double recorded by a guide that he fished with. (both reporting the same fish)
 
You need to think about who is going to get all these licenses and add them up?
DFO is getting rid of people not adding them.
The only way this will work is via electronics. Forget paper think computers.





1) Record halibut on the Lic similar to springs but add a length measurement.
2) Annual limit on lic
3) Return your lic when purchasing your NEW lic for a 5 $ Credit.. then there is some accountability.
4) Ensure the sportfishers fish are not double recorded by a guide that he fished with. (both reporting the same fish)
 
Angling opportunities will disappear if catch monitoring doesn't improve


By Neil Cameron, Campbell River Courier-Islander November 21, 2012


A halibut divided cannot swim. And without a province-wide buy-in to catch monitoring, the Sport Fishing Institute of British Columbia cannot properly fight to allow its members more access to a common property resource that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans gave to the commercial fleet.
That was the message SFI Executive Director Owen Bird gave as part of a meet and greet with Campbell River sports fishers in Campbell River last Wednesday.
About 30 concerned anglers attended the meeting and the main topic of conversation was the halibut allocation in which 85 per cent of the Total Allowable Catch is given to the commercial sector and 15 per cent to the sports sector. The disparity, one that forced the sports industry on the west coast to close its halibut season early the last two years, did not sit lightly with any in the room.
Bird said SFI is continuing to petition DFO for a more equitable split, but it first needs better numbers as to what the sport sector actually catches per year. Usually that information is collected in what is called a creel survey, in which various dock-side interviews capture such things as effort and species landed.
Bird said while the Campbell River area is a model for creel survey results, other more remote parts of the province make it difficult to gather that kind of information. And, not only that, some anglers refuse to give catch record information as part of their protest for what they see as the federal government handing over a common property resource to private interests.
That, said Bird, is understandable but it doesn't help move the negotiations along.
Those who don't or won't report halibut catch information have "a rationale," said Bird, but, "I'm not saying it's an appropriate or right rationale. There are people who are very disheartened, and displeased with fisheries and how they go about things or how they perceive fisheries go about things, and that's how they choose to behave and react.
"The fact is that we are a significant participant in the fisheries and we need to be able to, with a straight face, say this is what we're up to, this is what we're doing," said Bird, adding that in some areas they have great data, but not so in others. And in those other areas it's causing real problems.
"In particular areas it's a big problem, it's going to really damage opportunities, and fisheries is sort of poised and saying look we don't have confidence in the estimates we're making now so let's play it safe - and you can't blame them for that approach - let's play it safe and use the precautionary principle and your's going to see opportunities for angling disappear and you all know that once you take them away it's awfully hard to get them back."
The lack of some "catch monitoring, more and more, is having a pretty significant effect on our ability to negotiate, to talk, to defend against those in other sectors or even in the government that seem to believe the recreational sector is unchecked."
The problem is that the commercial fleet, with on board cameras and other reporting criteria, provides DFO with pretty accurate catch records. And since there are only about 430 licences for halibut, with a lot of the quota holders leasing them out and not even fishing, keeping track is much easier than trying to keep track of about 230,000 sports fisherman spread all along the coast.
Last year regulations were changed by DFO, in conjunction with the angling community and mostly the Sport Fishing Advisory Board of BC, to change the halibut possession limit to two fish, but one of which can't be larger than 83 cm.
That somewhat controversial regulation did have objectors, but it was credited by Bird as one of the reasons the 2012 halibut season ended on Sept. 9 instead of early July.
Bird also cautioned that negotiating with DFO over the halibut issue is a dangerous one because it could conceivably lead to the same type of 'quota' system for salmon and other species. He said that is especially so with the 'peace' (or maybe better called 'piece') offering DFO offered to sport fishers in that they could lease quota from the commercial sector.
"We have to be really careful about not buying into this whole business of quota for the recreational sector, we don't want to step off that curb unless we're absolutely forced to and there's nothing else to do because once we do that for halibut, then so too go salmon and on it goes," he said.
"It's a really slippery slope. There has to be some acknowledgement that Fisheries is like a train and they've left the station and they're all jazzed up about quota management."
When DFO increased the allocation from the sports sector from 12 to 15 per cent after relentless pressure, the commercial sector filed for a judicial review because it believed the extra three per cent was "theirs" and they wanted to be compensated for it.
And while the catch monitoring by sports fishers isn't perfect, said Bird, it isn't the vacuum that the commercial sector would have the government believe.
"No our sector is not perfect by a long shot in regards to catch monitoring but we've taken great strides, the lodge operations provide almost a census of information. For the halibut management association to claim that the recreational fisheries is unchecked and totally out of control and is not doing catch monitoring is patently untrue, it's totally false," he said.
Former Campbell River Mayor Charlie Cornfield was in attendance and he said that not only was he not in favor privatizing a common property resource, but that the creel survey information the SFI needs should be gathered and provided by DFO, not the other way around.
"I don't support anything that has to do with privatizing what is rightfully ours," said Cornfield.
"About your analogy of the train, that says it's already left the tracks. I never bought a ticket on that damn train, but I'm riding it so I want it to be as comfortable as possible and I want to get off as soon as I can.
"Providing this kind of creel data isn't the sports fisher's job, it's the government's job. That's what they get paid to do and it's obviously important in their decision making so forcing someone else to gather and provide that information is simply wrong."
© Copyright (c) Postmedia News
 
"I don't support anything that has to do with privatizing what is rightfully ours," said Cornfield.
"About your analogy of the train, that says it's already left the tracks. I never bought a ticket on that damn train, but I'm riding it so I want it to be as comfortable as possible and I want to get off as soon as I can.
"Providing this kind of creel data isn't the sports fisher's job, it's the government's job. That's what they get paid to do and it's obviously important in their decision making so forcing someone else to gather and provide that information is simply wrong."
© Copyright (c) Postmedia News

By that same logic is it the gov't responsibilty to hire Environmental monitors for project construction, Collect WQ samples for pulp mills, etc. etc. I don't think so.

We, the sportfishing community, need to accept some level of responsibility here or else we are just pissing up against a wall. How inconvienienced would you be sumbitting you annual catch at the end of the year? hell, even monthly via a web portal. Granted, you won't get all users but you will capture that majority. At least enough to provide a decent depiction of the harvest.

I would expect more from the past mayor as he is more than well informed on the merry-go-round that is prov/fed politics and decision making currently.
 
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