Radar Reflectors

[casper5280]

I'm just in the middle of taking a Radar course and the topic of Radar reflectors was discussed the other night. Most boats I see all have the Plastimo type of Radar reflector( the clear plastic tubes with the reflector inside the tube either in the 2" or 4" size) After doing a review of the different reflectors out there, these types are of almost of no use of all. One review even went as far as saying tying on a empty 6 pack to your VHF antenna would do a better job than this type of reflector. The best rated reflector is the Sea-Me reflector but it does require power to make it work and is also one of the more pricer units. Just wondering if anyone has one of the Sea-Me reflectors and what there thoughts on it are? Another top rated one is the Large Tri-Lens reflector(about $900), they have 3 sizes(mini,medium,large)anyone have one of these?
With the prices of some of these reflectors I'm wondering if it is just better to spend the money on a AIS transceiver. A Class B AIS transceiver is about $900. In my case I have a AIS equipped VHF radio and find it does a great job of picking up AIS equipped ships.
So my questions are:
1) Do you have a Radar Reflector and if so what kind
2) Do you have a AIS receiver or transceiver
Any other comments would also be welcomed.

 

[Ofishal]

I have a radar reflector, one of those tube type, but if you have your radar on you should give off plenty of signature.....no? Ais is only good if the wack job flying through Race Passage in the pea soup fog right at you has a Ais receiver, mind you, he has to have radar too

 

[Mighty Sylvan]

I have the tube reflector and an aluminum t-top not to mention a mouth full of fillings so between the three I hope I can be seen.

 

[CIVANO]

Davis model SD151 is economical and folds up if you want. Others fishing around me in the fog say the boat looks huge on their radar when I put it up.
http://www.landfallnavigation.com/sd151.html

 

[reelfast]

any reflector is better than NO reflector. the ratings are relative things but it is pretty clear that without a reflector of some sort, you are most likely a pencil dot on the radar screen, fading in and out. next time take a look at just how big a boat appears on your radar screen and then take a look at the reflector they have up. its either going to be a passive round one or one in a tube.

 

[Foxsea]

So my questions are:
1) Do you have a Radar Reflector and if so what kind
2) Do you have a AIS receiver or transceiver
Any other comments would also be welcomed.

The Seame is actually a transponder - not a reflector. It amplifies the return signal.

Yes and yes - Davis Echomaster - cheap and fairly effective. http://www.theradarreflectorsite.org/
I have it on a short pole that I stick into a rocket launcher on the hardtop when it's foggy. (After almost being run down by a un-named but very large guide boat near Rats Nose last summer, while hali fishing in the fog.) It doesn't help when no one's on watch, (as was the case in our situation.) Apparently couldn't hear our horn sounding, either.
More info: http://offshore.ussailing.org/Assets/Offshore/SAS+Studies/radar+reflector+tests.pdf

Standard Horizon: VHF and GPS interlinked - receiver not transceiver.
You will need MMSI number for DSC. MMSI stands for Maritime Mobile Service Identity and is used for radios with Digital Selective Calling, as well as Automatic Identification System (AIS) transponders. You can obtain an MMSI number free-of-charge.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/oep-navigation-radiocomms-faqs-1489.htm

Application: http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/sd-sd.nsf/vwapj/cpc2307AnnexA_e.pdf/$FILE/cpc2307AnnexA_e.pdf
It took well over a month for me to get the number. Be careful inputting the MMSI number - you cannot change it.

There is a plan that will have most navigational aids equipped for AIS - that would be very nice. Search and Rescue uses DSC to help locate recreational boaters in trouble. So get that MMSI number and input.

Another thread here discusses the importance of battery management and maintenance - all this great stuff needs power.

 

[casper5280]

The Seame is actually a transponder - not a reflector. It amplifies the return signal.

Yes and yes - Davis Echomaster - cheap and fairly effective. http://www.theradarreflectorsite.org/
I have it on a short pole that I stick into a rocket launcher on the hardtop when it's foggy. (After almost being run down by a un-named but very large guide boat near Rats Nose last summer, while hali fishing in the fog.) It doesn't help when no one's on watch, (as was the case in our situation.) Apparently couldn't hear our horn sounding, either.
More info: http://offshore.ussailing.org/Assets/Offshore/SAS+Studies/radar+reflector+tests.pdf

Standard Horizon: VHF and GPS interlinked - receiver not transceiver.
You will need MMSI number for DSC. MMSI stands for Maritime Mobile Service Identity and is used for radios with Digital Selective Calling, as well as Automatic Identification System (AIS) transponders. You can obtain an MMSI number free-of-charge.
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafety/oep-navigation-radiocomms-faqs-1489.htm

Application: http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/sd-sd.nsf/vwapj/cpc2307AnnexA_e.pdf/$FILE/cpc2307AnnexA_e.pdf
It took well over a month for me to get the number. Be careful inputting the MMSI number - you cannot change it.

There is a plan that will have most navigational aids equipped for AIS - that would be very nice. Search and Rescue uses DSC to help locate recreational boaters in trouble. So get that MMSI number and input.

Another thread here discusses the importance of battery management and maintenance - all this great stuff needs power.

Yes you are right about the Sea-me being a transponder but still falls in the class of a radar reflector.
The Davis Echomaster on a pole is a great idea, but unless mounted in the rain position does not work to it's full potential. But I still like the idea.
Yes the Standard Horizon VHF is only a receiver but you can buy the transceiver for a extra $900. And yes I do know about the MMSI #. Mine was returned within 2 weeks. Yes I was very, very careful inputting the # into the VHF as you say you only get one shot at it I believe.
Foxsea you are absolutely right about battery management, because without that none of this stuff works properly if at all.

 

[finaddict]

Tube type radar reflector And Furuno 24 mile radar. With my radar transmitting, I am told I light up pretty good. The tube reflector is not the best, but its better than no reflector at all and its legal.

No AIS, but I just recently hooked up my VHF to my GPS and radar (NMEA 0183) and received my MMSI. Between that, the immersion suits, the PLB EPIRB and the Viking 6 person Cannister liferaft, I have a little more confidence out there. No substitute for caution and awareness, but when things go bad out there they can go really bad too quickly for anyone to even know there is a problem, so I prefer to be as safe as I can.

 

[hambone]

I thought the hard edges of most boats with the exception of wood works good enough no?? I wouldn't spend lots on a fancy reflector, the cheap fold together ones IMO would be all you'll ever need and then you can put them away when not needed.

 

[reelfast]

I thought the hard edges of most boats with the exception of wood works good enough no?? I wouldn't spend lots on a fancy reflector, the cheap fold together ones IMO would be all you'll ever need and then you can put them away when not needed.

i know that glass boats don't reflect worth a hoot but i thought my tin boat would be ok. so i watched a tin boat headed my way on the radar and guess what, the boat got about 1 mile off and looked just like the glass boats, a tiny dot on the radar screen. don't fool yourself, without a reflector, you are invisable.

 

[Foxsea]

Between that, the immersion suits, the PLB EPIRB and the Viking 6 person Cannister liferaft, ...QUOTE]

And that's all stowed in the other side of your catamaran? lol
We're safe on the water but the irony is that most people get killed while driving. So stay out fishing! ;-)

 

[Foxsea]

I'm just in the middle of taking a Radar course and the topic of Radar reflectors was discussed the other night. Most boats I see all have the Plastimo type of Radar reflector( the clear plastic tubes with the reflector inside the tube either in the 2" or 4" size) With the prices of some of these reflectors I'm wondering if it is just better to spend the money on a AIS transceiver. A Class B AIS transceiver is about $900. In my case I have a AIS equipped VHF radio and find it does a great job of picking up AIS equipped ships.

Any other comments would also be welcomed.

You may have seen this, Casper but I'll post it anyway:

These results are drawn from an independent test conducted in California by a well known chandler. more info
It should be noted that no reflectors tested here attain the required 10m2 RCS, or sustain a level over 240o of >2.5m2 and have gaps well in excess of 10o. When heeled emulating a reflector at sea, their performance deteriorates further. Please refer to the Performance Charts for other reflectors tested since, by the admiralty.

Table 1. Ranking of Reflectors Based on a Minimum Return of 2.5~m2 not heeled X-band S-band
Reflector >2.5m2 RCS(m2) Gap° >1.0m2 RCS(m2) Gap°
Davis Echo Master, Vertex Up **63% 7.00 17 57% 1.71 21
Davis Echo Master, Double C.R. 48% 5.05 31 13% 0.90 78
Lensref (4î R) 30% 2.37 103 0% 0.44 ---
Davis Echo Master, Catch Rain 26% 2.00 54 0% 0.49 ---
Blipper Model 210-7 11% 1.66 43 26% 0.74 66
Radar Flag (Flat) 9% 3.89 157 11% 3.38 149
Blipper Model 210-5 (4î R) 7% 1.39 96 8% 0.49 185
Davis Emergency (5.7îR), C.R. 2% 1.25 117 0% 0.30 ---
Mobri (2îR) **0% 1.08 --- 0% 0.46 ---
Cyclops #1 (5.4îR) 0% 0.57 --- 0% 0.22 ---
HYE (5î) Catch Rain 0% 0.47 --- 0% 0.12 ---
Radar Flag (Draped) 0% 0.40 --- 6% 0.38 169
High Gain Rotation (4î R) 0% 0.38 --- 0% 0.22 ---
Mobri (1îR) **0% 0.22 --- 0% 0.16 ---


Table 2. Ranking of Reflectors Based on a Minimum Return of 2.5~m2 heeled X-band S-band
Reflector >2.5m2 RCS(m2) Gap° >1.0m2 RCS(m2) Gap°
Davis Echo Master, Double C.R. Heel=20∞ 43% 4.54 36 19% 1.02 78
Davis Echo Master, Vertex Up, Heel=10∞ **19% 3.81 85 11% 0.89 142
Davis Echo Master, Vertex Up, Heel=20∞ **13% 3.52 85 20% 1.03 79
Blipper Model 210-5 (4î R) Heel=20∞ 6% 1.22 175 2% 0.36 292
Lensref (4î R), Heel=20∞ 0% 1.32 --- 0% 0.18 ---
Cyclops #1(5.4îR), Heel=20∞ 0% 0.52 --- 0% 0.24 ---
High Gain Rotation (4î R), Heel=20∞ 0% 0.42 --- 0% 0.27 ---
Mobri (2îR), Heel=20∞ **0% 0.37 --- 0% 0.17 ---
Mobri (1îR), Heel=10∞ **0% 0.07 --- 0% 0.04 ---
(** Note high sensitivity to angle of heel for this orientation and reflector)
C.R. = catch rain
R = radius

 

[Theb55]

If you are near shipping lanes boating regs state that a radar reflector is mandatory, no options. While AIS is required on larger boats, there is no requirements to using them. There are no AIS requirements right now. I opted for AIS receiver. But you still have no choice with respect to the regs.

 

[Foxsea]

I'm just in the middle of taking a Radar course and the topic of Radar reflectors was discussed the other night. With the prices of some of these reflectors I'm wondering if it is just better to spend the money on a AIS transceiver. Any other comments would also be welcomed.

Thinking out loud, Casper:
One of the disadvantages of the Echomaster is the 6 significant zones of nul return. To overcome that, take two units , stacked one-above-the other and mis-align them by 45 degrees. Will the peak return of one then, overlapping the nul zones of the other, result in an enhanced, more uniform (and a certainly larger area to reflect and return a) signal? Cost = $130. Cheap, if it works.
What are your thoughts?

 

[capt hook]

i bought one of those expensive orange tubes to put up the mast cross tree years ago.
yes it worked , but a friends boat boooomed out on my screen...
he got a bleach bottle and filled it with balls of shreads of tinfoil , one full roll he said.
painted it flat black to look official and screwed it in the cross tree and was the biggest blip on the screen.
2.99 and problem solved !!!!

 

[casper5280]

For me it is a mounting issue. Trying to figure out how to mount the Echomaster reflector as I think this is the unit I'm going to go with. I was wondering the same thing with the Plastico units using your mounting idea, but after reading there poor performance rating gunned that idea. But you may have a good solution as your idea is sort of like the Tri-Lens as there's is the same idea, but with 3 in a plastic container.
The Tri-Lens have a good rating but only in the large units, I have yet to read any ratings for the medium or mini units. Still a pricy unit even in the mini size.
Here is a review of radar reflectors that was given out to us the other night in class: http://www.hotribs.com/Library/Radar_Reflectors.pdf

 

[Aces]

i bought one of those expensive orange tubes to put up the mast cross tree years ago.
yes it worked , but a friends boat boooomed out on my screen...
he got a bleach bottle and filled it with balls of shreads of tinfoil , one full roll he said.
painted it flat black to look official and screwed it in the cross tree and was the biggest blip on the screen.
2.99 and problem solved !!!!

Your dragger would have shown up well even without that

 

[reelfast]

while the ratings are interesting reading, i pay most attention to what i see, visually and on the radar screen. the relatively inexpensive 'ball's light up my radar as does the tube style reflectors. want to spend lots of money?? feel free...

an AIS class B transponder, on a fast boat, is pretty much useless as the frequency of signal update is pretty slow. you will have moved a considerable distance before you update your location making it virtually impossible for someone trying to track you in order to avoid you. a recieve only unit is of some utility if what you are trying to avoid are all of the ships with class A transponders.

 

[Foxsea]

For me it is a mounting issue. Trying to figure out how to mount the Echomaster reflector as I think this is the unit I'm going to go with. Here is a review of radar reflectors that was given out to us the other night in class: http://www.hotribs.com/Library/Radar_Reflectors.pdf

A detailed and credible review.Thanks.
The tri-lens is reflector that certainly performs well but it's bulky and heavy. I can't see having one stowed or mounted permanently on a small boat - at least I wouldn't. I like the advantage of units like the Echomaster, that they can be collapsed to a very small package. I'm inclined to buy one more unit, then stack the two on a threaded, stainless rod, run through a short piece of PVC pipe with end caps drilled for the rod so I can drop it into the rocket launcher on the hardtop. That would put the 2 reflectors about 10' above the water for visibility extending over 4 miles. Now I gotta try it.

 

[casper5280]

Yes for the price I think the Davis unit is the best bang for your buck. I'm looking for a unit that will be permanently mounted. I'm amazed at the price of some of these units compared to there performance. Yes it is a good review it was passed on by are instructor, so far it's been a interesting class. Your plan looks and sounds like you will light up as a great target.