Proposed Thompson River reg change

I have caught a few fish on the Thompson.....many with what is considered the worst method for deep hooking, a bottom bounced sand shrimp or roe bag. I can say without hesitation that I have NEVER deep hooked a fish on the T with this method or float fishing or spoons for that matter. Almost all fish are hooked in the corner of the mouth. That being said I have released a handful of fish with line coming from their mouth over the years as well. One of those cut off leaders was to a small fly deeply buried in the throat of a thompson fish as well.....its not just the bait chuckers.The key is not being asleep as the wheel when a fish is biting.
 
I may be wrong..but I think the bait ban is about less encounters, not deeply hooked fish... As for saying fly rods/fly guys stress the fish more on light tackle is plain stupid! A jackwagon that can't fight a fish can cast roe/flies/spoons/sparkplugs/spinglow...etc..Who cares what rod/method he's using. Your only insulting your own intelligence by believing that. Also fishing any kind of bait for SUMMER RUN steelhead this day in age is criminal.
 
Speaking of criminal, fishing a run that should be 5000+ fish strong when its dwindled to less than 700 is, if not criminal, highly unethical. The bench mark for an open season has been reduced from 1500 fish to 1200 fish to 1000 fish and now sits at 800 fish, yet it opened last year and this with forecasts of less than 700. MoE's latest proposal, along with the bait ban is to lower the bench mark to 500 due to the heavy political pressure of the sport fish sector. At this rate I bet I'll see folks squabbling over who gets to catch the last Thompson steelhead in my lifetime. Sad.

Ukee
 
hambone said:
That would be my issue with a fly rod vs gear rod... It takes one hell of a lot longer to land a fish, especially if you're alone.
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With all due respect, hambone, I've been chasing steel since 1976 on flies--- I started using "big" gear long before the dedicated followers of fashion started thinking that "spey" fishing was fly fishing and showed up with the long rods.

I picked up a 16 footer in the UK in the late 70's and when that rod is coupled with 12 to -15 lb maxima, you can pretty much stop a fish in its tracks---very easy to hook, fight, land (and release) a fish lickety-split. Since I fish alone pretty much ALWAYS, I don't do the hero-shot crap--- out come the needle nose pliers and the fish is gone. I very rarely have to nurse it in the shallows ---they swim away

ZERO difference then an experienced gear guy with a big rod (unless there's minimal river bank to stand on mixed with tree-overhang (not a good mix for a long rod, whether gear or fly). This mix you rarely find on the Fraser tributaries like the T so it's generally not an issue.

Like Mikep mentioned, if you're paying attention (as in "fishing" instead of standing on a river and yakking) it's almost always a lip-hook whether you're fishing heavy artillery or nuclear weaponry

Back in the 80's I more or less lived in Spences B. from October through March. The run was strong, the guys on the river knew the deal and didn't act like some of the jerks you see these days. People MOVED through the runs. I've had piles of 5+ fish days on fly up there---many times in the same hole. Not chest-pounding here---just illustrating what you can do with ANY gear when there are fish around.

I'm not necessarily a "humbers" guy, but when I smell moving (as in fresh) fish, the strategy is to get the hook in, beach them QUICK, then get the gear back out into the river to do it again. Anyone with a shred of fly or gear experience knows that's the drill and knows how to get it done. If you fiddle around and don't put the screws in and let the fish peel line it doesn't deserve, you miss your chance at playing with the rest of the pod.

Fishing a fly all those years in the T, did I ever kill a fish? You bet I did--- I didn't make a huge habit of it (mainly because I had lots of hatchery fish in my neighborhood for groceries and never really thought about beating up on T fish ) but when I did decide that blood would flow, I'd usually select a smaller buck and gave it the wood shampoo.

Have I ever killed a T fish on a fly "by mistake"? Yes, I have---I'd had a really good day, multiple fish, so I decided to bring out the handi-cap to slow things down a bit. I lined-up a 9 foot L.L. Beans bamboo trout rod for a 7 weight line and started fishing an UPSTREAM dry fly.

Trout guys who chase brown trout know that sometimes an up-stream cast with a dry fly coupled with a retrieve in perfect time with the fly as it comes back towards you with the current sometimes earns you the ultimate drag-free drift and sometimes that's what a fish wants to see before it busts its move

But trying to wade upstream in the T and effectively cover a hole? A major biotch on those snot-stained rocks. But I wanted me a handi cap and this method was definitely a handi-cap. But like I said, in those days there were fish around....

It didn't take long before a 12 lb doe come up off the bottom and literally inhaled my dry fly off the top. No boil, no commotion, just a diminutive sucking sound. I got her to the beach in short order (when fishing light gear, especially bamboo, I hand-line them to the beach---not hard to do with 12 lb maxima) ---and that's what I did with that doe

But WTF---No sign of the big bushy deerhair fly in her maxilla ---she'd inhaled it and I saw right away that the fly had snagged the filaments of one of her gills---I could already see the telltale red blush starting to gather in the shallows. That doe bled to death at my feet and I had to put her on my card (legal in those days). But man oh man, it was a long hard walk back to my truck knowing there were approx. 10,000 unfertilized eggs in her skein that would never get up the Nicola or Deadman's Creek.

I tell this story just to illustrate that a hook is a hook ---DON'T let a fly guy say that somehow his shiat doesn't stink. I've even repeated that collateral damage with a wet fly on "the swing"------big buck up on the Skeena many years ago--- same deal---it inhaled the fly and nicked a gill filament. That incident really sucked because it was in a C&R section of the river

Yah, a hook is a hook --if you worry about the unintended consequences of your fishing habit, DON'T FISH, and don't go saying that your gear is somehow "better" for the fish then someone else's gear.

It's patently false that an experienced gear guy can minimize the amount of lactic acid built up in a fish because they can put it on a beach faster then am experienced fly boy. The operative word (so far the word's been lacking in this thread ) is the word "cracker" (aka scissorbill) ---

An inexperienced fly guy and or an inexperienced gear guy? Now you have an argument to hang a hat on---they'll both beat up a fish in equal measure and if you see them doing it, point out the error of their ways in short order.
 
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sharphooks said:
With all due respect, hambone, I've been chasing steel since 1976 on flies--- I started using "big" gear long before the dedicated followers of fashion started thinking that "spey" fishing was fly fishing and showed up with the long rods.

I picked up a 16 footer in the UK in the late 70's and when that rod is coupled with 12 to -15 lb maxima, you can pretty much stop a fish in its tracks---very easy to hook, fight, land (and release) a fish lickety-split. Since I fish alone pretty much ALWAYS, I don't do the hero-shot crap--- out come the needle nose pliers and the fish is gone. I very rarely have to nurse it in the shallows ---they swim away

ZERO difference then an experienced gear guy with as big rod (unless there's minimal river bank to stand on mixed with tree-overhang (not a good mix for a long rod, whether gear or fly). This mix you rarely find on the Fraser tributaries like the T.

Like Mikep mentioned, if you're paying attention (as in "fishing" instead of standing on a river and yakking) it's almost always a lip-hook whether you're fishing heavy artillery or nuclear weaponry

Back in the 80's I more or less lived in Spences B. from October through March. The run was strong, the guys on the river knew the deal and didn't act like some of the jerks you see these days. People MOVED through the runs. I've had piles of 5+ fish days on fly up there---many times in the same hole. Not chest-pounding here---just illustrating what you can do with ANY gear when there are fish around.

I'm not necessarily a "humbers" guy, but when I smell moving (as in fresh) fish, the strategy is to get the hook in, beach them QUICK, then get the gear back out into the river to do it again. Anyone with a shred of fly or gear experience knows that's the drill and knows how to get it done. If you fiddle around and don't put the screws in and let the fish peel line it doesn't derserve, you miss your chance at playing with the rest of the pod.

Fishing a fly all those years in the T, did I ever kill a fish? You bet I did--- I didn't make a huge habit of it (mainly because I had lots of hatchery fish in my neighborhood for groceries and never really thought about beating up on T fish ) but when I did decide that blood would flow, I'd usually select a smaller buck and gave it the wood shampoo.

Have I ever killed a T fish on a fly "by mistake"? Yes, I have---I'd had a really good day, multiple fish, so I decided to bring out the handi-cap to slow things down a bit. I lined-up a 9 foot L.L. Beans bamboo trout rod for a 7 weight line and started fishing an UPSTREAM dry fly.

Trout guys who chase brown trout know that sometimes an up-stream cast with a dry fly coupled with a retrieve in perfect time with the fly as it comes back towards you with the current sometimes earns you the ultimate drag-free drift and sometimes that's what a fish wants to see before it busts its move

But trying to wade upstream in the T and effectively cover a hole? A major biotch on those snot-stained rocks. But I wanted me a handi cap and this method was definitely a handi-cap. But like I said, in those days there were fish around....

It didn't take long before a 12 lb doe come up off the bottom and literally inhaled my dry fly off the top. No bill, no commotion, just a diminutive sucking sound. I got her to the beach in short order (when fishing light gear, especially bamboo, I hand-line them to the beach---not hard to do with 12 lb maxima) ---and that's what I did with that doe

But WTF---No sign of the big bushy deerhair fly in her maxilla ---she'd inhaled it and I saw right away that the fly had snagged the filaments of one of her gills---I could already see the telltale red blush starting to gather in the shallows. That doe bled to death at my feet and I had to put her on my card (legal in those days). But man oh man, it was a long hard walk back to my truck knowing there were approx. 10,000 unfertilized eggs in her skein that would never get up the Nicola or Deadman's Creek.

I tell this story just to illustrate that a hook is a hook and don't let a fly guy say that somehow his shiat doesn't stink. I've even repeated that phenomena with a wet fly on as normal downstream swing---I killed a big buck up on the Skeena years ago--- same deal---it inhaled the fly and nicked a gill filament. That incident really sucked because it was in a C&R section of the river

Yah, a hook is a hook --if you worry about the unintended consequences of your fishing habit, DON'T FISH, and don't go saying that your gear is somehow "better" for the fish then someone else's gear.

It's patently false that an experienced gear guy can minimize the amount of lactic acid built up in a fish because they can put it on a beach faster then am experienced fly boy. The operative word (so far the word's been lacking in this thread ) is the word "cracker" (aka scissorbill) ---

An inexperienced fly guy and and inexperienced gear guy? Now you have an argument to hang a hat on---they'll both beat up a fish in equal measure and if you see them doing it, point out the error of their ways in short order.
Click to expand...

Poignant, heartfelt, and so true. Thanks for that, should be expended into an article, let me know if you're interested in doing that, I have a space on the web that would benefit from your insight.
 
Fishtofino said:
In over 25 yrs of fishing the Thompson i only had 1 deep, bleeding hook placement that probably was fatal and that was on a suspended maribou jig.

If you watch your float and set fast you mostly hook them in the corner of the mouth.....just ask Derby.

I hated watching the fly chuckers take 20 minutes to land them on their fish on light gear, talk about stressing out the fish. I'll bet the lactic acid buildup when the water was still fairly warm early in the season wasn't kind to a lot od fish
Click to expand...

Never caught one there.. :)
 
Yah, I agree with you, Sharphooks. Last year was my first year that I had the privledge to begin the lifestyle that is steelhead fishing. I'm fortunate to have a couple rivers close to where I live that are hatchery enhanced and allow retention and one of which I can throw bait from dec. on. A very experienced steelheader, a guy i look up to as far as the #'s he brings in, once told me, the biggest part of fishing ( and hooking) steelhead on gear, is bobber reading and knowing the runs year to year. He fishes wool where everybody else is throwing guts and he'll hook-up after guys have been fishing a hole for almost an hour just because he knows the run and where the fish are laying and can identify the strike and set fast. In by limited experience steelheading, I have found that in "most" cases steelies are quite finicky on the strike and lots of hits go by unnoticed until the fish has already "tested" the offering and released it. I can imagine that throwing bait might fool the fish into holding onto the offering for a little bit longer before trying to release it, but if a fish is really aggresive i don't think it makes an ounce of difference what your slinging, be it fly or bait the fish will take it deep. The only bit of advise I can give too the fly purest's,and most already fish by these ethics, is use gear suitable to the species being targeted ( no 5-6 wieghts for winter steelies) and don't sit and post popular holes. The way I look at it is fly guys have the ability the fish a lot of water that gear fisherman would pass up and I've seen many a fish smack swung flies in knee deep water that I wouldn't attempt to fish with gear. Where as I see some guys swinging flies in the in the deeper slower pocket water that gear fishers love taking up 2-3 spots with their long rods and never really getting the fly into the "zone". I like to fly fish as well and i would never walk in between a bunch of gear guys and start slinging line into the run they were fishing and i am always willing to give to next angler who wants to fish the spot that i have been fishing for a while. I fish steel strictly for the fun of the challenge and that beautiful moment when you land a nice crome bar out of a freezing flow, after crossing rivers and wading through bushes, pop the hook give it a quick handshake and watch it swim back behind the rock where you hit it then going back at'er for its mate. Tight lines to all the other steelie addicts out there and never forget to respect the fish,the river, and your fellow anglers.
 
Yo, BGM, do whatever you'd like with my post---no pride of authorship there---it's all open source, just a blurb to illustrate a point. Thanks
 
UkeeDreamin said:
Speaking of criminal, fishing a run that should be 5000+ fish strong when its dwindled to less than 700 is, if not criminal, highly unethical. The bench mark for an open season has been reduced from 1500 fish to 1200 fish to 1000 fish and now sits at 800 fish, yet it opened last year and this with forecasts of less than 700. MoE's latest proposal, along with the bait ban is to lower the bench mark to 500 due to the heavy political pressure of the sport fish sector. At this rate I bet I'll see folks squabbling over who gets to catch the last Thompson steelhead in my lifetime. Sad.

Ukee
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I know you are entitled to your opinion... because of course we all are...just be careful when it turns into casting stones when you are not qualified to do so.....just saying :)
 
Perhaps it is..so far on this thread everyone that has stated there opinion comes from of position of fishing for or knowing of steelhead..... I can respect the above statement from any of them...just checking your qualification..... :) opppss...just saying ;)
 
Because, of course, everyone's expertise and knowledge stated on an internet forum matches their actual skills and experience, right? Suffice it to say I'm a professional fisheries biologist who's been working in the BC Interior for over 20-years and been fishing salmon and steel since my teens. I know from hands on experience the trials and tribulations of the Thompson system and it's tributaries the Bonaparte, Deadman, Nicola, Coldwater and Spius, as well as the smaller steelhead tribs like Maka and Guichon. Each of the major tribs should have runs of Thompson steel in excess of 1000 fish and now the entire run will be lucky to get 500. That means a lot of the sub-populations may be effectively genetically extinct, if that means anything to you. These are summer run fish that hold up in the pools and runs of the Thompson to overwinter before running up their spawning tribs to do their thing in the spring. Essentially makes them sitting ducks to get fished over and over and over again for the three month open season. That fact raises questions of angler ethics in it's own right even in seasons of abundance. But, when the stock has dwindled to a critical level it definitely raises the issue. Many of us die hard Thompson addicts haven't fished it since the numbers got below 1200 on a regular basis.

It's interesting to me that many "sport" anglers cry foul when regulators make bone-head decisions to restrict access or harvest when there is available abundance, like on the halibut issue, but when fisheries managers make equally boneheaded decisions to open fisheries that clearly shouldn't be, there's no protest or lame rationalizations like, it's better to have eyes on the water (like there wouldn't be on the beloved T whether or opened or closed!).

Hope my creds meet your Thompson expertise standard Derby. Or, better yet, that you offer up some valid commentary on the issue raised that you seem to take issue with and the quality of your facts and arguments will define our respective credibility.

Just saying.

Ukee
 
In the late 80' there were locals in Spences Bridge who went nuts when Ian McGregor and his colleagues pushed to have the Thompson shut down last day of December. Their argument? There were fresh fish arriving throughout January, February and March and they should be allowed to keep fishing them.

If this anecdotal (hearsay) evidence is correct, those new arrivals (also known as potential spawners) would not have been accounted for in the Albion counts.

My own anecdotal comments (derived from logging thousands of hours of river time from Juniper Beach to Lytton over a 25+ year span-- the upper river fish (Ashcroft etc) appear to have been almost either extirpated or the populations significantly dented to no longer be a viable self-sustaining population, and the Nicola spawners are the last man standing

This would dovetail with upriver fish (longer migration) being the ones who begin their up-river push into the Fraser first and because of this unfortunate timing, suffer the worst from ending up as incidental catch (aka --dead) in chum salmon nets

I'd be interested to hear your comments, Ukee. Are there documented numbers of new arrivals in the winter months that don't show up in the chum fisheries?
 
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this is an amazing thread with some unreal opinions of some very knowledgeable people. Keep it up boys, reading this thread is excellent for a lot of reasons!
 
UkeeDreamin said:
Because, of course, everyone's expertise and knowledge stated on an internet forum matches their actual skills and experience, right? Suffice it to say I'm a professional fisheries biologist who's been working in the BC Interior for over 20-years and been fishing salmon and steel since my teens. I know from hands on experience the trials and tribulations of the Thompson system and it's tributaries the Bonaparte, Deadman, Nicola, Coldwater and Spius, as well as the smaller steelhead tribs like Maka and Guichon. Each of the major tribs should have runs of Thompson steel in excess of 1000 fish and now the entire run will be lucky to get 500. That means a lot of the sub-populations may be effectively genetically extinct, if that means anything to you. These are summer run fish that hold up in the pools and runs of the Thompson to overwinter before running up their spawning tribs to do their thing in the spring. Essentially makes them sitting ducks to get fished over and over and over again for the three month open season. That fact raises questions of angler ethics in it's own right even in seasons of abundance. But, when the stock has dwindled to a critical level it definitely raises the issue. Many of us die hard Thompson addicts haven't fished it since the numbers got below 1200 on a regular basis.

It's interesting to me that many "sport" anglers cry foul when regulators make bone-head decisions to restrict access or harvest when there is available abundance, like on the halibut issue, but when fisheries managers make equally boneheaded decisions to open fisheries that clearly shouldn't be, there's no protest or lame rationalizations like, it's better to have eyes on the water (like there wouldn't be on the beloved T whether or opened or closed!).

Hope my creds meet your Thompson expertise standard Derby. Or, better yet, that you offer up some valid commentary on the issue raised that you seem to take issue with and the quality of your facts and arguments will define our respective credibility.

Just saying.

Ukee
Click to expand...
Wow!!!! Dude thank you for this. Awesome post,great info. I was trying to stay out of this, but man, I cant help but comment. I cannot agree more and say how shameful that the so called "sportsman" is allowed to pin cushion a dwindling stock of magnificent lengendary creatures, and yes hearing the same old sorry excuse, we have to, cause if we don't then there will be no eyes and ears on the river if you close it. I call BS !!!!!
 
UkeeDreamin said:
Because, of course, everyone's expertise and knowledge stated on an internet forum matches their actual skills and experience, right? Suffice it to say I'm a professional fisheries biologist who's been working in the BC Interior for over 20-years and been fishing salmon and steel since my teens. I know from hands on experience the trials and tribulations of the Thompson system and it's tributaries the Bonaparte, Deadman, Nicola, Coldwater and Spius, as well as the smaller steelhead tribs like Maka and Guichon. Each of the major tribs should have runs of Thompson steel in excess of 1000 fish and now the entire run will be lucky to get 500. That means a lot of the sub-populations may be effectively genetically extinct, if that means anything to you. These are summer run fish that hold up in the pools and runs of the Thompson to overwinter before running up their spawning tribs to do their thing in the spring. Essentially makes them sitting ducks to get fished over and over and over again for the three month open season. That fact raises questions of angler ethics in it's own right even in seasons of abundance. But, when the stock has dwindled to a critical level it definitely raises the issue. Many of us die hard Thompson addicts haven't fished it since the numbers got below 1200 on a regular basis.

It's interesting to me that many "sport" anglers cry foul when regulators make bone-head decisions to restrict access or harvest when there is available abundance, like on the halibut issue, but when fisheries managers make equally boneheaded decisions to open fisheries that clearly shouldn't be, there's no protest or lame rationalizations like, it's better to have eyes on the water (like there wouldn't be on the beloved T whether or opened or closed!).

Hope my creds meet your Thompson expertise standard Derby. Or, better yet, that you offer up some valid commentary on the issue raised that you seem to take issue with and the quality of your facts and arguments will define our respective credibility.

Just saying.

Ukee
Click to expand...

Excellent post.....and I don't bye any means have your experience as a biologist but have had the pleasure of talking to a few of them & some good technicians over the years when the Ministry use to employee them..... I'm pretty sure we have crossed paths and know some of the same people over my years in my dealing with steelhead issues when you worked for the Ministry..... that being said I have a question for you? I would be interested in knowing your thoughts on the hook mort. rate is on winter and summer/fall run steelhead....cheers :)
 
She was just diagnosed with a tumor in her heart...

Maybe just one more trip to the T left in her...depressed run---clip the bend off the hook? Wouldn't be the first time I've fished that way, though the last time was for different reasons...

Maybe that's the next regulatory step--- You don't get the cake and you don't get to eat it, too, but some times that's what you have to do to remember what cake used to taste like...






 
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Thanks, Derby. I almost started blubbering when the vet talked euthanasia. What's that, I asked--- a young kid in Beijing?
 
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