How Deep Are You Really?

Seafever

Well-Known Member
My fishfinder does not show the downrigger balls at depth although I like the finder basically.

I've never owned one that does show me........

I know there are some models of finders that do that ......

Does yours do it? If so what make/model is it?

What makes have that capability?
 
I would guess my 12's loose about 20 feet for every 100 feet of depth, so at 200' i am probably only at about 160' .. But my sounder is the same as yours, going to switch to 15's i think


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I would switch to 15's too....but my downriggers are the 30 inch boom electrics bought back many years ago (single belt) and I'm leery of doing that.
 
If you want to see rigger balls, you need a wider beam transducer. This comes with cost.

I have a B75H CHIRP transducer Isolated thru-hull on a welded transom bracket (Custom setup). Relatively narrow beam only about 9-15 Degrees. Only time I can see the cannon balls is when they are right below the boat (not trolling). I went with the narrow, because I don't really want/need to see them on the sounder (actual depth on them is usually about 10ft shallower than what it shows on the counter with blowback, 15lb balls). I almost went with a B75M, which has a 16-24 Degree cone, and can definitely see the CB's with that I'd say. Also penetrates deeper, however I really don't need to see anything deeper than 300 feet or so, and the narrow cone has the highest sensitivity, if not the largest 'sweep' I will still see any fish or bait DIRECTLY under the boat, which is all I care about! :)


The hull truth forum has a lot you can learn about this kind of stuff, I would look it up on there if I were you! That's where I learned. It's all about cone angle, however with a wider cone, comes compromises with shallow and deeper resolution, accuracy, etc. Wider cone means, the deeper you go, the wider the field-of-vision is, so if you mark at 300', that fish could be 50'+ to either side of your boat easily!
 
Most sounders could show the DR balls IF you point the transducer back a bit ( you would not show accurate depth readings then ) - the average angle of the DR line means the balls are behind the beam of the Trans. ( unless you have a wide beam trans )
The shape of the DR line is a shallow 'c' arc - it is NOT a straight line from DR pulley to ball, so the angle you would need to change on the trans is not as steep as the DR line angle. Just how much to tip the trans depends on your variables of trolling spd, DR line dia, depth, ball weight, amount of terminal gear, etc
 
I would switch to 15's too....but my downriggers are the 30 inch boom electrics bought back many years ago (single belt) and I'm leery of doing that.

For what it is worth I have been running 15's on my single belt 30 inch Scotties for about 4-5 years now with no issues. The riggers are actually 24 inch boom that I put 30's on.
 
If you know the angle of your downrigger line and the length you have out you can calculate how deep your ball is.

Depth = sine (downrigger angle) x length of downrigger line out.

So if you're downrigger line is at 45 degree angle and you have 100 feet of line out your ball is at : .71 * 100 = 71 (feet).

If your downrigger line is at a 60 degree angle and you have 100 feet of line out your ball is at: .86 * 100 = 86 (feet).
 
As the guys above correctly pointed out, lots of factors come in to play as to whether you can (or cannot) track your gear on the screen of your sonar while fishing.

Strength of frequencies in the transducer and beam angle of those frequencies are probably the two most important factors as to whether you can or cannot track gear. A 1 Kw transducer is going to be firing way more power down into the water then a 600 W transducer will and the strength of the return signals will be that more visible on your fish finder/sonar screen. Add to your 1 Kw transducer a 25 degree beam (the newer ones have that) and you'll have that much larger a viewing "window" beneath your boat

Next--- the downrigger line you're using---are you lined with cable or braid, and if braid, what diameter is the braid? ---the bigger the diameter of your braid, the more "blow back" you'll be getting---the more blow-back, the bigger the chance your gear will NOT be visible in the beam angle of your transducer. The old style downrigger cable, although less convenient to use, tended to promote LESS blow back and consequently, your gear was probably a bit easier to track via sonar

Last---tide action and weight of your cannon ball.

At high or low slack tide, even using 250 lb test Scotty braid, your gear will be pretty much directly under your boat, so even with a 10 lb cannonball chances are it'll show up on a 600 Khz transducer at 200 feet of depth (unless you're ripping along at 3 knots). As soon as the tide starts moving, so does your gear beneath the boat resulting in gear being pulled outside of the sonar viewing window

But add a 15 lb cannonball, it'll tend to show even at speed on your fish finder if you have everything dialed in (proper gain, clutter etc). Some guys get creative and attach glass balls to their downrigger (Christmas tree bulbs, etc)---You're basically mimicking the swimbladder of a fish when you do that, creating an easier "target" and thus, a more identifiable return

As pointed out above, the new CHIRP technology is pretty stunning for target definition. You can fine tune which frequencies the transducer is using based on the depths you're fishing at or the fish species you'll be chasing. It offers a full "palette" of frequencies rather then just the 50/200 used by the older transducers.

Here are a couple of screen shots of what gear looks like with the newer transducers on the market:

In all these shots, the lower line is just a naked 8 lb cannonball; the upper line is a spinning, cut-plug herring

The next three screenshots are all the results of a thru-hull 1 kw straight 50 Khz transducer--- that explains the "blobby" target definition--- lower frequency--good for depth but not so good for target definition---







This shot is "bombing" the face of a cliff with a plug-cut herring--- the numerals disappeared off the screen because there was huge wave action (and bubbles) across the face of the transducer, but because it was a 1Kw thru-hull, it got a pretty good picture of not only the spinning herring but the cannonball perturbing balls of bait as it bounced down the cliff




This shot was using a 1 Kw 200 Khz transducer ---you can see that with the increased frequency, there is much sharper target definition

With the higher frequency you can just about count the individual rolls of the plug-cut




This last shot show target separation with the new CHIRP technology--- even though this was taken in shallow water, this transducer has the same crisp target definition in deeper water . With a 25 degree beam, I fully expect it to track even an 8 lb cannonball in 200 feet of water and provide evidence as to whether my plug-cut herring is still spinning like it should



Equipment--- the rule of thumb in sonar---spend your money on the transducer---the head unit (sonar/fish finder) is of secondary importance in target resolution although having a bigger screen is a good thing

The technology is increasing so fast that for a modest sum of money, lets say $ 400 - 800, you could get a good Lowrance or Garmin head unit that only a few years ago would have cost $ 1,000 +

Add to that a good quality 600 W transducer (Airmar!!!) that's PROPERLY INSTALLED on your transom (not getting dirty water from prop-wash or through-hull fittings etc) and you should be able to track your gear down to 200 feet of water depending on the gear/cannonball/tide action etc and how nimble you are with MANUAL manipulation of the settings (gain/clutter/signal strength etc)

Bump up the transducer to a 1 Kw---that'll make your modest-priced sonar head unit light up like a Christmas tree!
 
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Trendsetter.......yes......thanks....but it's still "guesstimation" to a certain extent...

Sharphooks...thanks...good info......in the pic where it shows "2.25" is that your gear going up (or down) the side of the reef? Quite precise.!!.....

in the last pic I don't see anything tracking on that one......



(I was hoping by now in this day and age they would have invented some small inexpensive sending units that clip on the d/line near the ball and transmit the depth to a unit on deck. Guess that 's never going to happen soon.

Seen one sender unit on a planer device but they are mega expensive......so not practical at all.


My needs would basically be in the surface to 300ft foot range......mostly..........)
 
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i have a newer lowrance HDS5 and i can watch myself jigging on the sounder in depths up to 100feet. It's pretty cool but i've never been watching the screen when a fish has hit. I wonder if it shows a boomerang right before the strike?!

With regards to the cannon balls I can usually track my lead down to about 90-120feet when trolling at 2.5mph depending on how strong the tide is. That is with 10's or 12's. It's usually pretty close, within 5 or 10 feet of what the counter on the downrigger says.

Remember that the angle of your line at the surface is not constant all the way to the ball. This little graph (http://www.lakemichiganangler.com/tips/photos/trolling_graph.jpg) resembles what's actually happening. Looking at the numbers i'd say that Jeffy's guess is pretty close.
 
If you know the angle of your downrigger line and the length you have out you can calculate how deep your ball is.

Depth = sine (downrigger angle) x length of downrigger line out.

So if you're downrigger line is at 45 degree angle and you have 100 feet of line out your ball is at : .71 * 100 = 71 (feet).

If your downrigger line is at a 60 degree angle and you have 100 feet of line out your ball is at: .86 * 100 = 86 (feet).
That assumes that the cable is a straight line from boat to downrigger ball. In reality, it's curved.
 
Ive drift jigged for halibut in over 250'+ feet of water and my HDS7 could track the two pound ball right to the ocean floor. Pretty amazing!

Have yet to see my downrigger balls on the screen unless I am not moving.
 
The shape of the DR line is a shallow 'c' arc - it is NOT a straight line from DR pulley to ball, so the angle you would need to change on the trans is not as steep as the DR line angle. Just how much to tip the trans depends on your variables of trolling spd, DR line dia, depth, ball weight, amount of terminal gear, etc

This is correct. If you're line is going out a 45 degreen angle at the boom, the line isn't keeping that angle all the way down - there's more at play then just that.


If you're trying to fish bottom at 150, drop your ball until you hit bottom then real up - you'll be very surprised how much line it takes at times - often an extra 50' of line is needed to touch in deep water.
 
This is correct. If you're line is going out a 45 degreen angle at the boom, the line isn't keeping that angle all the way down - there's more at play then just that.


If you're trying to fish bottom at 150, drop your ball until you hit bottom then real up - you'll be very surprised how much line it takes at times - often an extra 50' of line is needed to touch in deep water.

Very true, but you'd be surprised just how close you get using the angle to calculate depth. Especially if you have your line clipped close to the ball; the drag from the flasher & ball combined reduces the curve of the downrigger line.
 
Very true, but you'd be surprised just how close you get using the angle to calculate depth. Especially if you have your line clipped close to the ball; the drag from the flasher & ball combined reduces the curve of the downrigger line.

ya for sure, at least close enough but if you really want to fish on the bottom, you gotta touch and crank up to be sure.
 
Something I learned the other day when at Harbour Chandler....If you use the 300ft rolls of Power pro 200lb braid it is considerably thinner than the stainless wire and does not fill up the drum as close to as much as the wire does. The depth on the scotty downriggers is based on the larger size wire. A local guy tested it and found that with the 300ft of power pro 200lb he was at 10% less depth than he thought he was. eg...when it said it was 100ft he was only 90ft and that is straight down not moving in minimal current. its says 180ft u are only 162ft...plus of course blow back, which puts u even less depth. So in order to fill up the downrigger more completely to match the wire readings u need 450ft of braid.

It makes sense if it is doing one full rotation of the drum and u are kicking out 90% of the length of the thicker wire.
 
I have the stock Lowrance 200hz transducer on my old X18, tilted back 1 notch and i see my balls at 170 ft using 15 lb balls.
 
Burnsy22...funny you should say that......I just respooled both d/r's yesterday with 450ft per side of the PowerPro 200.....

Was told emphatically that the Powerpro 200 has less blowback than Scotty stuff.

I was using the Scotty thin stuff.........but it was starting to show it's age............
 
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