Dave S
Active Member
http://www.usedvictoria.com/classified-ad/Fender-Step_16973117
maybe this would work, maybe not.....
maybe this would work, maybe not.....
Getting back onboard... and survival.
- Thread starter Foxsea
- Start date
Foxsea
Well-Known Member
Thanks, Bret. It's great that everyone has brought up somewhat different but very valid considerations.
The hypothermic patient should not be encouraged to aid in their own rescue, if at all possible - the activity will accelerate their hypothermic progression. Water is 400 X more dense than air so cold water chills the body very quickly. Dealing with advanced hypothermia is a distinct possibility. Your practise of giving a pre-trip orientation is a commendable way of educating the guests or crew, before a critical incident arises. PFD's should always be worn, as you indicated.
I have recertified in OFA many times - hypothermia, like shock must be recognized quickly, treated agressively and appropriately. You may be treating a patient with a reduced level of conciousness. A supressed metabolism may make the pulse weak or undetectable. Chest compressions may not be advisable. As you noted, warming extremities too quickly can cause the core temperature to drop further, leading to ventricular fibrillation and death.
In all situations, getting cold, wet clothing off asap is a critical first step, as you said. Move the patient into a very warm cabin, if possible - inhalation warming is a highly recommended treatment. Be careful to handle the patient gently - they are susceptible to V.F. If a warm cabin is not available, cover them with blankets or sleeping bags, place a toque on their head and a scarf or towel on the neck as well, reducing further heat loss. Warm packs, if available, should be placed under the arm pits and around the groin area, again ensuring that the body core is warmed first. This can become a very serious medical emergency and certainly merits a Mayday call for professional advice.
A great site for education on understanding and treating hypothermia: http://www.hypothermia-ca.com/hypothermia_publications/fieldchart.htm
http://www.hypothermia-ca.com/mayday/mayday.html
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As an aside, I hope everyone is aware of the revised Boat Safety Regulations that came out in Oct 2010 (see www.boatingsafety.gc.ca) and the new requirements for a "boat reboarding device" and a heaving line. In my case I bought a portable ladder than can hang on the side or the back of the boat, in order to meet the new regs. I realized after the fact that the ladder wouldn't do me any good if I am in the boat by myself and fall in because the ladder is normally stored in the cuddy... I am now in the process of searching for an appropriate swim grid type ladder that permanently attaches to the back of the boat.
One of the reasns I went to the Seattle Show was their education program. All of the seminars were professionally recorded and will be sent out to participants in the next week or so,
I was able to attend women's day where they provided excellent semianrs on Radar, navigation, tides, currents and most interestin for me the use of the Life Sling.
The instructors were both excellent one was a registered Captain and the other was involved in a lot of technical issues with the state government and the USCG.
They used real life rescue information in their class.
There was a 90 minute talk on the Life Sling, Real world use and a long discussion of how 3 crew members (Daughter,Son and Father) in a sailing race (WA State) all ended up overboard through a series of freak events while trying to rescuue the first crew member who fell overboard. Only one crew member (the least experiences) was left onboard within a matter of minutes
The crew of the boat who reversed course and affected a live rescue of all three overboard sailers were recently awarded the Andrew B Hansen Rescue Medal (not yet posted as of this date)
www.ussailing.org
Most of our boats are at a disadvantage in getting an overboard crew member aboard, compared to sailboats that have winches and halyards to assist in getting the person aboard.
This seminars were based in the idea of a couple on the boat and one of the two falling overboard.
I will see if I can get permission to post up the Life Sling seminar
NOTE: While the LifeSling is USGC approved it is Not Transport Canada Approved and does not replace a lifebuoy
ca.binnacle.com
I was able to attend women's day where they provided excellent semianrs on Radar, navigation, tides, currents and most interestin for me the use of the Life Sling.
The instructors were both excellent one was a registered Captain and the other was involved in a lot of technical issues with the state government and the USCG.
They used real life rescue information in their class.
There was a 90 minute talk on the Life Sling, Real world use and a long discussion of how 3 crew members (Daughter,Son and Father) in a sailing race (WA State) all ended up overboard through a series of freak events while trying to rescuue the first crew member who fell overboard. Only one crew member (the least experiences) was left onboard within a matter of minutes
The crew of the boat who reversed course and affected a live rescue of all three overboard sailers were recently awarded the Andrew B Hansen Rescue Medal (not yet posted as of this date)
The Arthur B. Hanson Rescue Medal - US Sailing
The Arthur B. Hanson Rescue Medal is an award given to skippers of pleasure boats or race support vessels who effect rescues of victims from the water. The award is made for rescues in U.S. waters, or those which occur in races originating or terminating in a U.S. port. The purposes of the award...
www.ussailing.org
Most of our boats are at a disadvantage in getting an overboard crew member aboard, compared to sailboats that have winches and halyards to assist in getting the person aboard.
This seminars were based in the idea of a couple on the boat and one of the two falling overboard.
I will see if I can get permission to post up the Life Sling seminar
NOTE: While the LifeSling is USGC approved it is Not Transport Canada Approved and does not replace a lifebuoy
Buy Lifesling 2 Resue System Softpack in Canada Binnacle.com
ca.binnacle.com
Max123
Well-Known Member
I'd like to add one thing. Ability to throw a rope is a lot harder than it looks - its a skill, and is worth a few practice throws. I've been water skiing, and driving boats for skiing my whole life, and everytime I tell someone else to throw the rope, I instantly regret it. For some reason people always think that the best way is to swing it around really fast over their head like some kind of lasso. This technique has exactly 0% chance of success (and high chance of knocking someone else out).
Key things about throwing a rope:
1) Only throw out the back of the boat. Do not throw forward (you will just run over the rope and get it tangled in the prop). Throwing off the side doesn't work well either because you don't have enought room to make a clean toss.
2) Don't stand on top of the rope (seriously), keep the rope at the stern.
3) Do not coil the rope. The only way a rope will unspool cleanly is if it was reeled in as a pile (same as an anchor rode).
4) When you want to throw, go to the side of the boat, hang the handle over the gunnell (this is key so you can throw with a clean unobstructed movement). Hold the rope with about 18" of slack. The balance of the rope should be on the floor in front of you (not behind you). Do one or two underhand test arcs with your arm and then throw the handle with a long sweeping underhand (I say again, do not spin the rope).
5) Aim over/beyond the person - you aren't trying to hit them in the face.
If you miss, leave the handle in the water and move the boat to bring the handle to the person in the water. Drive the boat alongside the person (not too close, on the driver's side so you have good visibility), and then swing the boat in a circle around the person (think like you are follow the path of a number 6). The rope will trail behind the boat, and when you circle the boat, the rope will be 'cinched' around the person in the water.
Personally I don't like throw bags. You only get one chance to throw (since they need to be packed to work properly) and are not heavy enough to throw any decent distance. I even own a monkey's fist - still not enough weight. There is no beating a classic water ski rope, and the handle can double as a step - pull the person in, and then hitch it to the cleat. Also, most ski ropes float.
A water ski rope is between 60-75ft, and with some practice you can toss that rope 50-60ft - you will surprise yourself how far a good underhand toss can go.
If you are using a throw bag: practice, practice, practice. Its not easy. One trick is to dip the throw bag in the water. The bag sucks up a bit of water weight and can be tossed a lot further.
Key things about throwing a rope:
1) Only throw out the back of the boat. Do not throw forward (you will just run over the rope and get it tangled in the prop). Throwing off the side doesn't work well either because you don't have enought room to make a clean toss.
2) Don't stand on top of the rope (seriously), keep the rope at the stern.
3) Do not coil the rope. The only way a rope will unspool cleanly is if it was reeled in as a pile (same as an anchor rode).
4) When you want to throw, go to the side of the boat, hang the handle over the gunnell (this is key so you can throw with a clean unobstructed movement). Hold the rope with about 18" of slack. The balance of the rope should be on the floor in front of you (not behind you). Do one or two underhand test arcs with your arm and then throw the handle with a long sweeping underhand (I say again, do not spin the rope).
5) Aim over/beyond the person - you aren't trying to hit them in the face.
If you miss, leave the handle in the water and move the boat to bring the handle to the person in the water. Drive the boat alongside the person (not too close, on the driver's side so you have good visibility), and then swing the boat in a circle around the person (think like you are follow the path of a number 6). The rope will trail behind the boat, and when you circle the boat, the rope will be 'cinched' around the person in the water.
Personally I don't like throw bags. You only get one chance to throw (since they need to be packed to work properly) and are not heavy enough to throw any decent distance. I even own a monkey's fist - still not enough weight. There is no beating a classic water ski rope, and the handle can double as a step - pull the person in, and then hitch it to the cleat. Also, most ski ropes float.
A water ski rope is between 60-75ft, and with some practice you can toss that rope 50-60ft - you will surprise yourself how far a good underhand toss can go.
If you are using a throw bag: practice, practice, practice. Its not easy. One trick is to dip the throw bag in the water. The bag sucks up a bit of water weight and can be tossed a lot further.
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CIVANO
Well-Known Member
One of the reasns I went to the Seattle Show was their education program. All of the seminars were professionally recorded and will be sent out to participants in the next week or so,
I was able to attend women's day where they provided excellent semianrs on Radar, navigation, tides, currents and most interestin for me the use of the Life Sling.
The instructors were both excellent one was a registered Captain and the other was involved in a lot of technical issues with the state government and the USCG.
They used real life rescue information in their class.
There was a 90 minute talk on the Life Sling, Real world use and a long discussion of how 3 crew members (Daughter,Son and Father) in a sailing race (WA State) all ended up overboard through a series of freak events while trying to rescuue the first crew member who fell overboard. Only one crew member (the least experiences) was left onboard within a matter of minutes
The crew of the boat who reversed course and affected a live rescue of all three overboard sailers were recently awarded the Andrew B Hansen Rescue Medal (not yet posted as of this date)
The Arthur B. Hanson Rescue Medal - US Sailing
The Arthur B. Hanson Rescue Medal is an award given to skippers of pleasure boats or race support vessels who effect rescues of victims from the water. The award is made for rescues in U.S. waters, or those which occur in races originating or terminating in a U.S. port. The purposes of the award...
Most of our boats are at a disadvantage in getting an overboard crew member aboard, compared to sailboats that have winches and halyards to assist in getting the person aboard.
This seminars were based in the idea of a couple on the boat and one of the two falling overboard.
I will see if I can get permission to post up the Life Sling seminar
NOTE: While the LifeSling is USGC approved it is Not Transport Canada Approved and does not replace a lifebuoy
Buy Lifesling 2 Resue System Softpack in Canada Binnacle.com
Here is another manufacturer somewhat cheaper
Lalizas Life Link Man-Overboard Rescue System - 20440 $107 usd
This brand was mentioned in the seminar, and it's lower cost was tactfully stated as it's only redeeming feature. According to the speakers there is a noticable difference between the original and others. Another factor tobe considered is the amount of bouancy in the tow slings
I was intrigued by your post and I like to save a buck when possible but I won't compromise safety to save money so I tried to find out some comparative information on the Lalizas and the Life Sling
I was unable to find out the buoyancy of the Lalizas and if it had either or both USCG and UL approval.
Buoyancy of the Life Sling is : 21 lbs
Specifications:
- Color: Yellow (flotation collar and line) with white storage bag
- Buoyancy: 21 lbs
- Floating Retrieval Line Length: 125 ft.
- Regulatory: UL and USCG approved
- Dimensions (storage bag): 12-1/2" W x 22" H x 5" D
The Binacle has the Life Sling for sale for 369.00 Cnd with Free shipping.
Slings, Scoops & Ladders - Practical Sailor
Since 1974, Practical Sailor’s independent testing has taken the guesswork out of boat and gear buying.
www.practical-sailor.com
I wrote to Lalizas and asked them the following questions
Good Morning
1. Is the Lalizas Life Link Man-Overboard Rescue System certified or approved by the following organizations :
a) certified by UL (Underwriters Laboratory,
b) approved by the USCG (United States Coast Guard )
2. What is the Measured Amount of Buoyancy (in Pounds and/or Kilograms) provided by the Lalizas Life Link Man-Overboard Rescue System?
Thank you for your help.
Sincerely.
Hopefully, I get an answer sooner than later.
Thanks for mentioning the Lalizas system. I will share my response when received
Now We Wait.........
Tsquared
Well-Known Member
We keep a boarding ladder lashed beside the cabin. If you don’t have that, you could use your stern tie up line by tieing the un attached end to your midships cleat with the rope looping down into the water so that the person in the water can put a foot on the rope and use it as a step.
Foxsea
Well-Known Member
These systems are used after someone is in the water. I know how important quick retrieval is - no argument that having a plan is good.
But, staying inside the boat is even better, obviously.
How do people fall in?
1) impairment by dope or alcohol
2) standing to a) urinate over the side
b) reach the net to the too far-away fish
c) attempting to retrieve an object gone overboard
d) attempting outboard engine repairs
3) weather-related, sinking, accident or collision
Tragically, my brother's 46 year old neighbour died off Nit Nat, attempting engine repairs - cold-induced heart attack. A friend's 52 year old husband died near Renfrew while attempting to boat a fish - cold-water shock and heart attack. Unfortunately, eventual retrieval was for these fatalities. In both cases the heart attacks occurred within minutes of immersion.
Having a clear protocol to avoid the high-risk activities of 1) and 2) could make a retrieval plan redundant. Lose a fish. Wait for help. Be safe!
But, staying inside the boat is even better, obviously.
How do people fall in?
1) impairment by dope or alcohol
2) standing to a) urinate over the side
b) reach the net to the too far-away fish
c) attempting to retrieve an object gone overboard
d) attempting outboard engine repairs
3) weather-related, sinking, accident or collision
Tragically, my brother's 46 year old neighbour died off Nit Nat, attempting engine repairs - cold-induced heart attack. A friend's 52 year old husband died near Renfrew while attempting to boat a fish - cold-water shock and heart attack. Unfortunately, eventual retrieval was for these fatalities. In both cases the heart attacks occurred within minutes of immersion.
Having a clear protocol to avoid the high-risk activities of 1) and 2) could make a retrieval plan redundant. Lose a fish. Wait for help. Be safe!
trophywife
Crew Member
the harbour boat i use has rope with a foot hold loop. 3' long, bundled up and zip tied to the rear transom cleat. its neat and out they way. i practiced with it and showed my dad how to use it. just a clean cheap suggestion.
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Alex_c
Well-Known Member
In addition to avoiding risk factors that could result in falling overboard, if you spend a lot of time on the water in the colder months, it’s probably not a bad idea to acclimatize your body to cold water. Either by cold swimming, ice baths, or showers. Even a week or so of daily cold exposure can reduce the shock response to the cold (there are studies that back this up, and anecdotally it was true for me). Slowly working your way up to more intense exposure is probably a good idea.
This brand was mentioned in the seminar, and it's lower cost was tactfully stated as it's only redeeming feature. According to the speakers there is a noticable difference between the original and others. Another factor tobe considered is the amount of bouancy in the tow slings
I was intrigued by your post and I like to save a buck when possible but I won't compromise safety to save money so I tried to find out some comparative information on the Lalizas and the Life Sling
I was unable to find out the buoyancy of the Lalizas and if it had either or both USCG and UL approval.
Buoyancy of the Life Sling is : 21 lbs
Specifications:
Note: Approved for use as lifting sling only on sailboats longer than 20 ft. LOA and powerboats with lifting point 10 ft. above water
- Color: Yellow (flotation collar and line) with white storage bag
- Buoyancy: 21 lbs
- Floating Retrieval Line Length: 125 ft.
- Regulatory: UL and USCG approved
- Dimensions (storage bag): 12-1/2" W x 22" H x 5" D
The Binacle has the Life Sling for sale for 369.00 Cnd with Free shipping.
Slings, Scoops & Ladders - Practical Sailor
Since 1974, Practical Sailor’s independent testing has taken the guesswork out of boat and gear buying.
I wrote to Lalizas and asked them the following questions
Good Morning
1. Is the Lalizas Life Link Man-Overboard Rescue System certified or approved by the following organizations :
a) certified by UL (Underwriters Laboratory,
b) approved by the USCG (United States Coast Guard )
2. What is the Measured Amount of Buoyancy (in Pounds and/or Kilograms) provided by the Lalizas Life Link Man-Overboard Rescue System?
Thank you for your help.
Sincerely.
Hopefully, I get an answer in the next few days.
Thanks for mentioning the Lalizas system. I will share my response when received
Now We Wait.........
Coming as no great surprise there has been no answer from Lalizas.
I have followed up with them
kaelc
Crew Member
Nice to see the options, another argument for a lifting davit for my dingy. I’ve had minor hypothermia before after a charity food bank swim and it was almost funny. I was being interviewed by check news and I realized I couldn’t speak any longer. Just being in the water for a few minutes and head going under 3-4 times. Highly recommend the cold water soaks in the ocean, I used to be able to do 20 minutes head out of the water but up to my shoulders 12 months a year. Lots of dad bod insulation right now but not ready for the shock. Got to get back in the water.
Foxsea
Well-Known Member
You Polar Bears!
I think I'll wear my cruiser suit, instead.
Alex_c
Well-Known Member
Well, I might not have a jammer from cold shock but it will still suck. A suit would be a hell of a lot more comfortable
ziggy
Well-Known Member
I remember doing Liferaft Drill where we had to pull guys out of the water and into the raft. To just pull them out was hard even with a couple of people working it. What we were told to do is push the guy down into the water and let the lifejacket bouyancy pop him up and in one motion drag him into the raft. Works really well.
I had forgotten that technique. We were taught that in Swift Water rescue decades ago. I remember basically being launched into the raft.
Foxsea
Well-Known Member
I wear it in the winter but usually unzipped at the chest - too warm.
I've read that your conditioning technique was used by Harry Houdini in his icy water escapes. He discovered that the cold shock effect was triggered at the face so he immersed his face in ice water, daily. Maybe more tolerable than a full-body experience. I'm still reluctant, though.
Yes, I'd be a snowflake if it wasn't cold.Well I heard back from LALIZAS today after my second follow up. BOLD type face is mine. I deleted his phone number and email address.
Hi Bill,
Thanks for reaching and my apologies if you did not get a prompt reply to your request.
Answering your question, this item has no USCG approval and I am aware they are working on the UL certification.
Our Life Link Man-Overboard Rescue System https://www.lalizas.com/product/156-rescue-systems/2825-rescue-system-life-link meets the International Sailing Federation ISAF. This is used for recreational purposes. You may find the datasheet attached.
Also, manufactured by ISO 9001:2015 requirements from BM TRADA. Product quality is verified by international bodies such as Germanischer Lloyd, Bureau Veritas and Lloyd's Register.
Also, let me take this opportunity to let you know that LALIZAS is now physically presence in Canada to solve and help all your requests. I will like to understand further what you are looking for and how to assist you with. Please tell me more about your business and how we can cooperate together.
Thanks,
Best Regards,
LALIZAS Canada
1355 Pendrell St.
Vancouver
Hi Bill,
Thanks for reaching and my apologies if you did not get a prompt reply to your request.
Answering your question, this item has no USCG approval and I am aware they are working on the UL certification.
Our Life Link Man-Overboard Rescue System https://www.lalizas.com/product/156-rescue-systems/2825-rescue-system-life-link meets the International Sailing Federation ISAF. This is used for recreational purposes. You may find the datasheet attached.
Also, manufactured by ISO 9001:2015 requirements from BM TRADA. Product quality is verified by international bodies such as Germanischer Lloyd, Bureau Veritas and Lloyd's Register.
Also, let me take this opportunity to let you know that LALIZAS is now physically presence in Canada to solve and help all your requests. I will like to understand further what you are looking for and how to assist you with. Please tell me more about your business and how we can cooperate together.
Thanks,
Best Regards,
| Miguel Norato Country Manager |
| http://www.lalizas.com |
1355 Pendrell St.
Vancouver
