electronics confusion

[reelfast]

so i had the simple notion of trying to add 'chirp' technology to my sonar. since i have a networked Raymarine system this became very complicated as Ray has chosen to not do add ons only whole systems. that means my MFD and assorted other gear would have to be replaced before i even get to this part. it got very expensive very quickly.

given that, what is the collected experience with the newer depth finders/MFD combo units?? i see that Fureno, Garmin, Hummingbird and others offer a product range that might fit my needs. but as usual, to distinguish their products from the competition, they all use there own descriptions, chirp, 360...

my goal is a much more clear picture of suspended fish as well as bottom structure. now these various manufacturers like to show you screen shots in water about 10' deep, not much use for us on the strait. so given all of this, have any of you installed and used any of this more current sonar technology? and what is your opinion of the various technologies from these sources?

thanks for taking the time.

 

[reelfast]

so the knowledge base knows nothing, amazing!

good thing i attended opening day of the Seattle boat show. i was able to beat a path to the electronics area and ask my questions. 'chirp' is no longer a consideration. the relevant factor is beam angle, about 20 degrees. with that narrow an angle, it is not of much utility in a fishing environment. that just save me thousands. moving on to the transducer. if your current setup can power a 1Kw transduer, that makes a huge difference. i saw dozens of screen shots, with and without, and the difference is astonishing. your MFD makes little difference as all of these vendors end up producing the same capabilities packaged in a way that tries to distinguish them from the herd. whatever you choice is fine so consentrate on the transducer part of your equation. HD radar is also the bomb.....

i also learned that my current setup is among the most reliable systems ever produced by Ray and therefore has value on the used electronics market place. when i move forward and have the gear removed, i will post is up forsale: C80+2Kw radome+navionics chip.

 

[steel_dreamin]

Great - thread closed.

Curious why you think 20 degree beam angle is no good fishing?

 

[reelfast]

Great - thread closed.

Curious why you think 20 degree beam angle is no good fishing?

its not a matter of good or bad but of how much you are going to see on the screen. the 1Kw tranduers are much more powerful in output so the definition of what you see is far better. but if you compare my mid performance P66 to the high performace 1Kw, the beam angle goes from 45degrees to 20. in deeper water this may not be so much a concern as those who fish in shallower waters. i suppose its all in getting used to what you are looking at.

 

[Sharphooks]

Hey reelfast--- you need to call a guy named Gil Travis--1 (800) 925-0341

A few minutes with him and you'll have a much better idea of what hardware is available out there based on the fishing conditions you have in mind. He might also be able to save you some money on equipment

I presume you're a salmon/hali guy? The bases you want to cover (Wattage of the transducer / number of elements / degrees of the beam) are going to be way different then a blue-water tuna fisherman or a guy looking for wrecks in 300 M of water. But based on the comments you made about beam angle, definitely call this dude

I've been using sonars with 1 Kw capability for awhile now (in-hull 1Kw transducer like this:

Recently, I purchased a 1 Kw unit (Furuno 587) for the back deck. Now I need a transducer that will get wet (so I can use the bottom-discrimination feature (either a thu-hull or a transom mount) .

I also spent the day yesterday at the Boat Show looking at hundreds of screen-shots of sonars attached to different transducers. I'm a Furuno guy so I never went near the Navico / Lowrance / Raymarine / Simrad displays---just stuck to one booth, saw what I needed to see, and went home.

Maybe you know that Furuno has not (yet) gone after the Chirp technology--- a sonar that can differentiate returns from the entire spectrum of frequencies (the basis of Chirp) is already in the Furuno equipment line-up ---for us sports fishermen, the FCV295, and the FCV1100 used by the commies, but unlike Chirp, those sounders require dual transmission lines with multiple receivers---Chirp uses way less energy for 10 times the power going up and down the water column. The deep-water guys are all over this technology (though the pricing is in nose-bleed territory)

You can learn all you need to know about CHIRP here:

http://www.airmartechnology.com/uploads/Brochures/MIBS 2012 CHIRP Presentation.pdf

based on the fishing I do, Chirp sounds like over-kill ---- fishing non-schooling fish, continually on the move up and down the water column from zero up to 150 M can be covered with lots of other (CHEAPER) pieces of equipment. Many guys are perfectly happy with their 600W skimmer transducers hanging off their transoms

What I finally settled on is an Airmar SS264W (thru-hull) This unit can be purchased in a pair (SS264W 50kHz with a 25 deg. beam and a SS264W 200kHz with a 25 deg. beam) but there's not alot of value added fish-finding magic brought to the table with those multiple 25 degree beam widths---it's basically double coverage of the same amount of water column (45 feet of it at 30 M for BOTH the 50 KHz and the 200 kHz).

For strategic fish-finding equipment, this is what I've learned after lots of hours of research--- anybody else out there who can help on this, please chime in)

The best set-up for a mid-water salmon guy if you're going either the 600W route or the 1Kw route (1 Kw = more power = sharper returns at both the 50zHz and 200kHz frequencies) is:

wide beam 50
narrow beam 200

That covers all the bases, and is part of the reason the skimmer-type 600W transducers are so popular (Furuno guys use the P66) . Reason why is:

You motor along with a split-screen, 50 on one side, 200 on the other. At 30 M of depth (common salmon depth) , the 50 side with the 45 degree beam captures 83 feet of water column ( Approx. 40 feet on either side of your boat) The 200 side with the 11 degree beam captures 21 feet of column (approx. 10 feet on either side of the boat) So with this simple transducer (approx. $ 100 for a new one) once you get a strong signal on the 50 kHz screen you know that fish is within 40 feet of either your port or your starboard side. IF it's NOT showing on the 200 kHz screen, you circle back around and try and get that signal to reproduce itself on the 200 kHz screen--if you can do that, then now you know that fish is within 10 feet of your boat and at least you know your gear is in the money zone.

With a 1 Kw transducer, you apply the same principle but you're going to get a way stronger signal, clearer, crisper image, and if you're fishing bottom fish (hali for example) if you made a good choice in transducer for that application, that cleaner signal would allow you to differentiate between a fish and a hump of coral, whereas perhaps the P66 (600W) would just be showing the vague outlines of a blob on the bottom --- good screen shots of bottom differentiation in that AIRMAR CHIRP link) And in the case of hali fishing you'll want NARROW beam (like 6 degrees) because that's how you're going to know your boat is directly over that halibut when you find him

After what I saw yesterday at the Boat Show, I'm closing in on that SS264W 200 kHz 25 degree beam for the following reasons:

At 30 M, I'll have crystal clear returns in a beam (window through the water column) of approx. 45 feet around my boat, (20 feet on either side) --- that 20 feet of window on either side of my boat will capture my port and starboard downriggers, the gear, and anything within a 45 foot radius of my boat (of course that radius of "window" will increase at depth--- I'll have 90 feet on either side of the boat at 150 M, presumably with crystal clear returns due to the 1 Kw of power.

DOWNSIDE of choosing just a 200 kHz unit-- beyond 150 M, the returns from a 200 kHz will peter out and get muddy (downside of high frequency vs. low frequency energy propagation) . That's why God created 50 kHz crystal elements and that's why Airmar sells a pair of SS264W's ----but I'm NOT a deepwater guy--and by being so shallow (sounds like what my GF used to say to me) I just saved myself $ 800 by just buying one 200 kHz transducer instead of the pair of them

If I want to track bottom at 400 M, I have the in-hull M260 for that--- but I'll never be dropping a jig down there so that application is last on my list.

But call Gil; really---he can speak Furuno, Navico, Raymarine and will set you straight on not only the available MFD's out there but what transducer you might be thinking of attaching to them consistent with the type of fishing you do

good luck

 

[reelfast]

thanks for your thoughts. the furuno guy was interesting but unless you have a MFD from them already, they didn't have much to offer. the real differentiator is in pixel count so realistically the only item you want to pay attention too. touch screen or not is not that important at the end of the day. the other big consideration is if you are keeping parts of a legacy system, can anything new integrate, not that simple as it turns out. what i learned is its all in the transducer and a black box that will power that unit. i think i have settled in on airmar ss164. my black box can handle this without a hitch so that just dropped a big chunk of change back in my pocket. so i think the sonar part of the equation is feeling more comfortable. adding HD radar will require a new MFD, however. and just like that 1Kw transducer, HD radar is amazing in clarity. switching off dual range with the Ray product and you have the antenna rotating at 4,800 rpm.

 

[Westcap19]

...hmmm I think perhaps 48 rpm? Otherwise you'd need a helicopter pilots license

 

[wildthing]

hey sharphooks
is the in hull m260 not giving you more or less the same as a 264w will give you?
or do you need both trying to figure out why your needing more than the m260

newbie learning this transducer caper....lol

 

[reelfast]

...hmmm I think perhaps 48 rpm? Otherwise you'd need a helicopter pilots license

don't know, just repeating what a Ray installer shared with me. unfortunately, when you talk with multiple people, things get way more confusing. i must admit, that i am confused once again. the solution by 'sharphooks' looks interesting but the dual transducer set up is not supported by my equipment, must be a Furuno exclusive. the tilted element thru hull does get my attention, however, cutting a 4" hole in the hull makes me sort of nervous not sure what if anything i will end up doing.

 

[Westcap19]

ya...I know what you mean reelfast...I've pondered that for quite a while...even though my unit will support a 1000 watt transducer, I made the decision to stick with the P66 transom mount (600W)

 

[reelfast]

p66 is pretty much bullet proof solution for sure. mine works well running up about 30k but when the depth drops off, i lose the bottom. it would appear as though this is the 'break' point between 50 and 200 khz as soon as a slow down, all is well once again. one rep at the seattle show suggest runnnig the gain all the way up and then backing off until you have a 'clear' picture. i have not tried that in the past but an interesting idea. running a split screen was another idea so both the 50 and 200 windows are displayed. sort of what sharphooks is after but with way more sensitive transducers. would be nice to hang a new transducer over the side and try it before making a committment but thats not going to happen.

 

[Sharphooks]

hey sharphooks
is the in hull m260 not giving you more or less the same as a 264w will give you?
or do you need both trying to figure out why your needing more than the m260

newbie learning this transducer caper....lol

Yo, wildthing--

If you get on the Airmar website you'll soon start to see the pattern--- different transducers (whether they are 600W or 1Kw or 2Kw or 3 Kw) have different beam widths or "beam coverage cones" for the different frequencies (in non-"Chirp" transducers, they are typically split-screen options capturing 50 kHz and 200kHz.)

If you research the M260, you'll see the beamwidth for the 50 kHz is 19 degrees and for the 200kHz, it's 6 degrees. This is compared to 45 degrees (!!!) for the tried and true P66 600W skimmer transducer. Way narrower "window" down into the water column

I installed that M260 for a simple reason--- I got a good deal on it. yes, I can hold a crystal-clear bottom image on my screen at a depth of 250 M going 30 knts (really) --- it'll also pick up fish at that depth and at that speed (really). But for slow-speed downrigger fishing at 30 M, it's the wrong tool for the job because at shallow depths, the beam angle is WAY NARROW

The SS264W has a beamwidth of 25 degrees for both the 50kHz and the 200kHz. Totally different tool and application--- way bigger window at shallow depths (with crystal clear target returns).

But ya gotta belly up to the bar with fistfulls of Northern Pesos to own a pair of those SS264W's or SS264N's. That's why I've decided to just get one of the pair (probably the 200kHz side of the pair; higher frequencies are usually associated with good target resolution in shallower depths --- it's physics --energy propagation in liquid mediums etc etc. The 50kHz is usually associated with 200 M+ of depth and I don't generally go there (I have a shallow personality because all I do is fish---that's what she said).

good luck

 

[wildthing]

Cheers sharp hook thanks for education
but for me my budget don't get me past the p66
or i'll just have to save up for ever....lol

was looking at getting the new lowrance elite 7 hdi and a elite 7 gold for just chartplotter

what would be the best transducer to go with or would the stock lowrance transom mount one be ok

john

 

[Sharphooks]

If you want a major education in fishfinders and transducers, get on The Hull Truth (Marine Electronics Forum) A lot of guys on that site use Lowrance / Navico / Simrad / Raymarine etc and they can set you straight. Most of them seem to be Blue Water fishermen, though (deep) so if you ask a question, be specific with what fishing application you're considering (species/depth etc)

There are some West Coast guys picking up those 1Kw transducers, though. Even though a 600W skimmer transducer like the P66 is a really good tool for us salmon guys, a strategic bottom fisherman might want the extra power of a 1Kw to differentiate between bottom and halibut. If I was a nuts hali guy (I'm not) I could tune my M260, fiddle with gain and bottom-zoom, and probably learn how to zero in on individual fish. The P66 --- the crystals just aren't big enough to transmit and receive enough info to make that differentiation (at least at 150 M they aren't)

 

[reelfast]

i have signed onto the Ray tech support site. it is a forum much like this one but with folks having problems or questions about Ray gear. i have asked two, what i consider stumper questions, and within a matter of a couple of hours had comprehensive answers. it has convinced me that if i can't find a certified Ray installer, i am not moving forward with this project. i will instead shift gears and pick up a standalone GPS/sounder capable of operating that 1kW airmar.

sharphooks, did you check out the SS or B 164?? slightly narrower beam pattern but you get both the 50 and 200 Khz in a single device. using your MFD split screen you could still accomplish comprehensive look at the bottom. yes 5 degree narrower pattern.

 

[Sharphooks]

Hey Reelfast, yes, I did. In fact there's a guy selling a B164 on eBay (for a Furuno unit) for almost 50% off retail (it's brand new)

I was going to grab it but it's for a 20 degree stepped hull (I'm closer to zero so too much tilt going on)

I'm sticking with the wide beam SS264W, and still havn't completely ruled out the tm270w

I have a 12" screen in my wheelhouse dedicated to that M260 (both 50 and 200) and that gives me the split-screen option for those frequencies

 

[wildthing]

hey guys confused here at looking at the specs on the lowrance stuff most of there kit only puts out 250w of power ???

so are they really driving the 1Kw transducers like the TM 270w or 260-258? to there full benefit
or only giving it 1/4 power???

after reading around the tm270w was making add it to the wish list....lol
but if the units i get wont (elite 7 hdi )get the best
from it then should i just stick with the stock lowrance transducer

 

[Sharphooks]

My guess is a 1Kw transducer would not be appropriate for that unit---it might work with the right cable connectors, but you wouldn't be optimizing the transducer's potential ---that TM270W is hugely expensive ---I'd stick with the Lowarance transducers available for that unit. The following I got from a website--maybe it will help explain the various options for the Elite 7 HDI:

QUOTE

It may be easier to understand the Lowrance product line and its features by charting them:

Lowrance HDS

--has Broadband Sounder

--has option for StructureScan HD imaging

StructureScan HD imaging

--adds StructureScan via black-box module, variously called Structure Scan HD module or LSS module

--needs a skimmer imaging transducer called the LSS transducer

--includes Down Scan Imaging or DSI. This is a high-frequency SONAR that looks directly under the boat giving great detail.

ELITE

--some models have Hybrid Dual Imaging (HDI) which means they have some part of the Broadband Sounder technology of the HDS and some part of the StructureScan HD technology, particularly the Down Scan Imaging or DSI portion

--some models use a dual-function transducer which provide for both the Broadband Sounder and the DownScan Imaging signals.

--models with Hybrid Dual Imaging (HDI) also feature a DownScan Imaging (DSI) Overlay feature that allows the simultaneous display and overlapping of the sonargrams from the Broadband Sounder and the DownScan Imaging sounder to be presented, with varying amounts of density or contrast of the two signals being mixed to allow for best presentation.

Confused? Yes, it is very confusing.


Now some other features of the ELITE. The chart plotter and SONAR are nicely integrated so that details in the historical display of SONAR images can be geo-located and marked on the chart plotter. This feature is called Trackback.

These features are arranged in a number of different ELITE models. The Gold package is provided on a memory card in Micro-SD format which contains Navionics cartography:

--ELITE 7 HDI (all features), with a variety of options for transducers and charts:

--no transducer $599
--83/200 and 455/800 transducer $699
--82/200 and 455/800 transducer and Gold package $769
--50/200 and 455/800 transducer $799
--50/200 and 455/800 transducer and Gold package $869

--ELITE 7 BROADBAND is DSI ready, but includes only the 83/200-kHz transducer; also includes chart plotter, charts, and GPS receiver, $599

--ELITE 7X HDI (fishfinder with HDI features, no GPS receiver, no chart plotter, no charts), $549

--ELITE 7M GOLD (chart plotter only with Gold package, no sounder) $669

UNQUOTE

Looks like the best use of their sonar is to mix and match various frequencies with the transducers they make available in the "option" package

Do a Google search for "images" on the Elite 7 and you'll get pix of screen shots ---unfortunately, it's all from Bassin' Dudes (shallow water)

 

[wildthing]

Power Output: RMS (PTP) Max 250W RMS, 30,000W Peak to Peak analog equivalent
this even for the top of the range hds 12 touch screen $3000 unit?

i was looking at getting the elite 7 HDI with gold pack and also elite 7m for just chart plotting
and using the 1kw TM270w to get a clear as possible pic
put the TM270w on the HDI unit and use the skimmer ducer on the 7m
oh well if it dont work i can dream.....lol

i did fire off a email to lowrance to see if the unit would work with a TM270W
but wont hold my breath for a reply.

looks like my old humminbird matrix 97 83-200htz and si-tex profish 120htz will have to carry on for now

 

[reelfast]

i am now leaning toward a 2 step process that is money dependent. first step would be to upgrade my classic 80 with a new e95 along with digital radar, a vast improvemet in clarity. the second step, maybe a year out, will be to add a standalone GPS/sonar unit from some manufacturer that will support the dual 1kW transducers from airmar (SS264W). this will allow me to keep the broad cone of echo from the p66 while adding the far greater clarity from the 1kW transducers.

at least that is what i am thinking at the moment