Electoral Reform Referendum

[wildmanyeah]

A lot of commentary on here about the fears or evils of coalition governments and yet it is the FPTP that resulted in our current Provincial coalition and two of the last 4 federal governments in a minority situation, which essentially requires coalition governance. I wonder if most folks actually know what they want vs simply being inherently fearful of change?

I’d also argue that the last two minority federal governments did a pretty good job of balancing the needs of the country and governing responsibly while Harpers majority was far too anti-environment/pro-development for about half the population and now Trudeau’s majority is far too socially liberal for the other half. As one of the common themes in this thread is lack of trust of governments and politicians, don’t we want them to be forced to keep each other somewhat honest?

Cheers!

Ukee

Ps - damn hard typing with trick or treaters at the door every few minutes! LOL

I like minority governments, will we get them under a PR system or will we get coalitions?

 

[fish brain]

I like minority governments, will we get them under a PR system or will we get coalitions?

For the most part, we will likely see coalitions

 

[fish brain]

Just looking at the poll results, they are currently, 35.9% yes and 64.1% no. under FPTP once we get to 36% the yes side wins!

 

[ziggy]

PR is not a partisan issue and neither are the choices. PR is/was supported by Gordon Campbell, Christy Clark from BC Libs, and the current BC NDP, BC Greens and BC Conservatives and many other politicians of all stripes across Canada.

Each choice has the same fundamental principle of having %votes = %seats. This concept is not partisan.

Each PR choice is a different way of achieving this and each choice was not invented by the NDP or Greens. Here is a rundown:

-Dual Member Proportional (DMP):
A "Made in Canada" solution invented in 2013 by Sean Graham while a graduate student at University of Alberta. It's not used anywhere yet but was invented specifically to achieve PR while also ensuring that every member represents a specific geographic riding.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual-member_proportional_representation
https://theprovince.com/opinion/op-ed/sean-graham-dual-member-proportional-is-best-for-b-c

-Mixed Member Proportional (MMP):
Was initially adopted for West Germany in 1949 and has been adopted in numerous other jurisdictions world wide. Achieves PR by having two votes: one for local candidate and second for a party.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-member_proportional_representation

-Rural Urban Proportional (RUP) :
Uses STV for urban/suburban ridings and MMP for smaller rural ridings. The early STV system was invented by the British in 1857 and has been used throughout the British Empire and beyond including Ireland, Australia and US municipalities. MMP is the same system as listed above for rural ridings. The combination of the two was proposed in 2016 by Canada's former chief electoral officer Jean-Pierre Kingsley.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rural–urban_proportional_representation

Again these choices are not partisan and should be judged on their own merit. All of them will achieve PR which addresses the fundamental problem with FPTP.

So tell me
Where will the new Electoral Boundaries be drawn?
Who will decide which riding are rural or urban?
How come they don’t know how many MLA’s will be in the Legislature?
Will the Party lists be open and subject to voter or Party selection?
Why are so many details left out of how the system will work?
When those questions are answered then maybe PR would be an option. To quote John Horgan though,as it stands, it’s “a leap of faith”. No thanks, come back when you’ve figured out the details! Finally I’m surprised so many of you are impressed by Gordon Campbell and Christy Clarke’s endorsements. Ever wonder why they never pushed for it in all the years they held power? I do.

 

[cracked_ribs]

Just looking at the poll results, they are currently, 35.9% yes and 64.1% no. under FPTP once we get to 36% the yes side wins!

Hey, if you can convince everyone who opposes a certain party to get behind one other option, that wouldn't be an issue. But that would require the opponents of the 36%er to work together.

If the opposition can't work together for a common interest, or if their goals are too far apart to work together, it's nobody's fault but theirs if they lose to someone with a slim plurality. Build a bigger tent.

 

[fish brain]

Hey, if you can convince everyone who opposes a certain party to get behind one other option, that wouldn't be an issue. But that would require the opponents of the 36%er to work together.

If the opposition can't work together for a common interest, or if their goals are too far apart to work together, it's nobody's fault but theirs if they lose to someone with a slim plurality. Build a bigger tent.

36% of the popular vote can be a majority government. No need to get along with anyone

 

[ziggy]

36% of the popular vote can be a majority government. No need to get along with anyone

In PR wouldn’t you only need 30% if you could find a Party to throw in with you that had 20%? Or even 20% if you could buddy with three parties that each had 10%?

 

[fish brain]

So tell me
Where will the new Electoral Boundaries be drawn?
Who will decide which riding are rural or urban?
How come they don’t know how many MLA’s will be in the Legislature?
Will the Party lists be open and subject to voter or Party selection?
Why are so many details left out of how the system will work?
When those questions are answered then maybe PR would be an option. To quote John Horgan though,as it stands, it’s “a leap of faith”. No thanks, come back when you’ve figured out the details! Finally I’m surprised so many of you are impressed by Gordon Campbell and Christy Clarke’s endorsements. Ever wonder why they never pushed for it in all the years they held power? I do.

Electoral boundaries already get re drawn, who decides that? I used to live in Malahat Juan de Fuca form 1991 to 2009 now I live in Cowichan Valley electoral district.
Glen Campbell held the last referendum on PR, he supported it, how is that not pushing for PR ?
Re the details. We can't begin to approach a consensus on how things should work here on the forum, how would you expect to get a consensus form the entire province. At the end of the day, it will be a committee that will decide the hows and wheres of electoral reform. The three choices can only be a guide.

 

[fish brain]

In PR wouldn’t you only need 30% if you could find a Party to throw in with you that had 20%? Or even 20% if you could buddy with three parties that each had 10%?

That would be a coalition, and as far as I understand they would need 60% to form government. Still not perfect but 24% more than the min 36% under FPTP

 

[ziggy]

That would be a coalition, and as far as I understand they would need 60% to form government. Still not perfect but 24% more than the min 36% under FPTP

Where did you get the 60%?

 

[ziggy]

Electoral boundaries already get re drawn, who decides that? I used to live in Malahat Juan de Fuca form 1991 to 2009 now I live in Cowichan Valley electoral district.
Glen Campbell held the last referendum on PR, he supported it, how is that not pushing for PR ?
Re the details. We can't begin to approach a consensus on how things should work here on the forum, how would you expect to get a consensus form the entire province. At the end of the day, it will be a committee that will decide the hows and wheres of electoral reform. The three choices can only be a guide.

Boundaries are redrawn by a commission,but that was not the question. You should have a consensus on how a system will work prior to offering it as an option. To say the three choices can only be a guide, should be a red flag for anyone and a reason to say back to the drawing board.

 

[fish brain]

Re 60 %
I read it somewhere. I have been searching for the article and can't find it. It is possible I have misinterpreted some other point. If someone has correct information on this can you please post it?

 

[fish brain]

Boundaries are redrawn by a commission,but that was not the question. You should have a consensus on how a system will work prior to offering it as an option. To say the three choices can only be a guide, should be a red flag for anyone and a reason to say back to the drawing board.

Unfortunately the AG decided to give three incomplete options after reviewing 91725 questionnaires prior to filing his recommendations on PR and the referendum. Do I like it, no but that was the direction he was pointed in https://engage.gov.bc.ca/app/upload...d-Recommendations-of-the-Attorney-General.pdf

 

[cracked_ribs]

36% of the popular vote can be a majority government. No need to get along with anyone

Only if the opposition parties and voters allow it. If that's what they choose, that's what they choose.

 

[J-GLOBAL]

Well, FPTP isn't doing so well for:
Sport fishermen
or
Healthcare

I don't really see any benefits to the current system; typically in our province we get a dictator from one party who ignores most of the people for his/her (and party) own gain followed at some point by a dictator from the other party who ignores most of the people for his/her (and party) own gain.

 

[ziggy]

Well, FPTP isn't doing so well for:
Sport fishermen
or
Healthcare

I don't really see any benefits to the current system; typically in our province we get a dictator from one party who ignores most of the people for his/her (and party) own gain followed at some point by a dictator from the other party who ignores most of the people for his/her (and party) own gain.

Clearly we need a Sport Fishing Party to push our agenda! Seriously, I doubt if changing systems will make a difference in either Health Care or Fishing. Saltwater Fishing is Federal and to be honest the current coalition hasn’t been exactly helpful in lobbying the Feds. If anything I think you’ll see more envirocentric Parties and I doubt they will be big on Sport Fishing. Fingers crossed though that we get a Sport Fishing Party who can elect 2 Members and gain Official Party Status.
Someone claimed there are 90 countries using PR. How many of them have better Health Care or Sport Fishing than Canada? In how many was PR determined to be the factor that improved Health Care or SportFishing? Certainly not New Zealand!

 

[ziggy]

Unfortunately the AG decided to give three incomplete options after reviewing 91725 questionnaires prior to filing his recommendations on PR and the referendum. Do I like it, no but that was the direction he was pointed in https://engage.gov.bc.ca/app/upload...d-Recommendations-of-the-Attorney-General.pdf

You have more faith than I. Some would say that a survey ( many complained it was designed to reach certain conclusions)reviewed by a single political party and from that, develop an incomplete system that just happens to match you coalitions desire is the poster child for Partisan Politics.

 

[Clint r]

So tell me
Where will the new Electoral Boundaries be drawn?
Who will decide which riding are rural or urban?
How come they don’t know how many MLA’s will be in the Legislature?
Will the Party lists be open and subject to voter or Party selection?
Why are so many details left out of how the system will work?
When those questions are answered then maybe PR would be an option. To quote John Horgan though,as it stands, it’s “a leap of faith”. No thanks, come back when you’ve figured out the details! Finally I’m surprised so many of you are impressed by Gordon Campbell and Christy Clarke’s endorsements. Ever wonder why they never pushed for it in all the years they held power? I do.

Seriously? Come on, You have to know why. ICBC, money laundering, BC hydro, cash payoffs from big industry, drunken party leaders. The list is incredibly long. A little research on the BC liberal party will uncover a dozen reasons why they don’t want it. A few are even above board.

 

[tincan]

Well, in terms of countries with better healthcare than Canada (and we have a pretty good system), it seems like a pretty big coincidence that out of the couple dozen listed on most world rankings none using FPTP. I'm no statistician but I gotta think those odds tell you something. PR countries tend to adopt legislation that the majority of the citizens want.... such as good healthcare!
https://nordic.businessinsider.com/the-16-countries-with-the-worlds-best-healthcare-systems-2017-1/
http://thepatientfactor.com/canadia...zations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/
https://ceoworld.biz/2018/02/14/the...he-best-healthcare-systems-the-world-in-2017/

You know what else the majority of BC residents want? No more open-net pen fish farms. I would wager that under a coalition government that represents, say, 60%+ of the vote that open net pen fish farms would be on their way out.

Clearly we need a Sport Fishing Party to push our agenda! Seriously, I doubt if changing systems will make a difference in either Health Care or Fishing. Saltwater Fishing is Federal and to be honest the current coalition hasn’t been exactly helpful in lobbying the Feds. If anything I think you’ll see more envirocentric Parties and I doubt they will be big on Sport Fishing. Fingers crossed though that we get a Sport Fishing Party who can elect 2 Members and gain Official Party Status.
Someone claimed there are 90 countries using PR. How many of them have better Health Care or Sport Fishing than Canada? In how many was PR determined to be the factor that improved Health Care or SportFishing? Certainly not New Zealand!

 

[tincan]

I've yet to hear a legitimate response from those against PR to explain why no countries using PR all seem to like it just fine and why none of them have switched back to FPTP after moving to PR. To me, this is the most important argument FOR PR. Countries that have it, like it. Countries that switch from FPTP never choose to switch back.