Electoral Reform Referendum

How will you vote?

  • I am in favour

    Votes: 30 34.5%
  • I am against it

    Votes: 56 64.4%
  • I don't plan to vote

    Votes: 1 1.1%

  • Total voters
    87
NDP botched this by giving people 3 options to 3 mystery PR options.
You know that you can vote to stick with FPTP and still pick or rank one of the PR options. That way your voice is still heard. You could also vote for PR and leave out what type and your vote still counts. Just saying that everyone has some say on this.
 
Can someone tell me why we can talk about this subject which has absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH FISHING, but can't discuss Fish Farms.
If some Fish Farm posters cross the line when posting, ban them!!
Show me some news about Fish Farms please!
Or ban me if Admin does not like to be challenged on his unfair policy!!!
This is posted in the General Open Forum. So far for the most part the discussion has been respectful. The fish farm thread turned into: you are an idiot- no you are an idiot conversation. If that happens here, I am sure admin will shut it down.
 
A good debate where both were considerate and respectful. Good points were raised by both but it remains that some are not comfortable with a change. Maria made the valid point that democratic institutions are eroding and we need to see better voter turnout and engagement to revitalize our democracy. Feeling heard and well represented in a fair system could go a long way to accomplishing that.
I have spent most of my life in 2 different ridings. One that was a safe riding and it mattered little what I thought or voted. I didn't even need to show up but I still voted. Now I live in a swing riding and I sure see a difference. It hit home for me a few years back when I taught my kid how to vote. I had to explain the strategic voting and why we vote for someone we don't like to make sure the other guy doesn't get elected. The question came up why can't we just vote for the person we do want? Oh that's not how democracy works.......
 

Flashback: She makes some good points for Pro-Rep like inspiring more civility in politics and in the Legislature.
 
I think Andrew Coyne of the National Post explained what is wrong with FPTP.

It happened here in BC.
index.php
And yet we managed to survive this so-called election travesty. That's one of the problems I have with this whole issue. We've somehow managed to survive, and some would say thrive for over 150 years with the FPTP electoral system. But now, for some reason, the math experts seem to think we need to change the system to something that makes more sense from a mathematical point of view but without any real evidence showing how the current system has failed the Country. As for Mr Coyne - I'd feel a bit better about his views if he actually lived in BC. I'd also like to hear something from him about the ham handed way our current coalition government has handled the whole decision process. Given his history, I'm surprised Mr Coyne would accept the "trust us to work out the details" from any political party.
 
It hit home for me a few years back when I taught my kid how to vote. I had to explain the strategic voting and why we vote for someone we don't like to make sure the other guy doesn't get elected. The question came up why can't we just vote for the person we do want? Oh that's not how democracy works.......

Yeah that is a fair criticism of the current system. Why I voted for PR in the past.

The strategic voting in the last Fed election of if your a green or NDP voter then vote for the Liberals was definitely a sad part of our current system. RIP Jack layton's NDP
 
Last edited:
https://vancouversun.com/opinion/an...-quo/wcm/23c9d120-575d-4814-bdef-81f386fd8db1
Andrew Coyne: Which electoral system for B.C.? Any option is better than the status quo
B.C. has a rare opportunity to fix an electoral system that no longer works. It would be a tragic mistake to let a few complaints about process get in the way

There is a theory that B.C.’s NDP government would just as soon the province’s referendum on electoral reform failed. I doubt it, but the way the government has chosen to go about it lends the theory some credibility.

Take the double-barreled question on the ballot, for starters. The first asks voters whether the province should use the existing “first past the post” model or “a proportional representation voting system;” the other, to choose among three such systems. Without knowing which of the three would replace FPTP, some voters will be in a dilemma: even if they prefer one or more of the proposed alternatives to FPTP, they might prefer FPTP to the other choices.

The menu of reform options is the second problem, or rather the method by which they were chosen. I’ve warmed to the options themselves, which seem to me good-faith attempts to reconcile the objectives of proportionality and local representation. But their selection by the sitting government, rather than a non-partisan commission or citizens’ assembly, opens the process to accusations of having been engineered to produce a particular outcome.

Third, important details of each of the proposed reforms have been left to be worked out after the referendum. Again, some voters’ ranking of each might depend on how these details were filled in. The temptation in the face of these uncertainties is to stick with the status quo. Indeed, many critics of reform have seized on them as their primary argument for voting against reform, rather than try to defend FPTP on its merits. This is convenient, since FPTP is indefensible.

I suppose it is possible to imagine a system that was worse, but looking at the three alternatives on offer it is easy to see that, while one may be preferable to the others, any of the three would be superior to the status quo.

None is scary or extreme: the notion that any would result in a raft of fringe or even neo-**** parties being elected, as the anti-reform campaign has claimed, is contemptible rubbish — if nothing else, the threshold attached to each, requiring that a party win at least five per cent of the overall vote to win any seats, would see to that. Each uses ballots that are simple enough: if not a single x, as under FPTP, they would require voters to mark perhaps two x’s, or at most 1, 2, 3 …

Most important, all three would deliver a legislature that looked a lot more like what people actually voted for, ridding B.C. of the harmful inequities of first past the post: its tendency to rule by the minority, fewer than 40 per cent of the votes commonly being enough to claim a “majority;” the vast disparities in the weight it assigns to different votes, measured by how many votes it takes to elect a representative of each party, depending on how “efficiently” its vote is distributed; the pressure it puts on voters to vote “strategically,” i.e. for a party other than the one they prefer, for fear of “splitting” or “wasting” their vote; and so on.

What are the three systems? The first, and least-known, is called dual-member proportional (DMP). Voters would elect two members in each ridings. One would be elected directly by the current method. The second would be allocated based on each party’s share of the provincial popular vote: if a party were entitled to, say, 10 seats on this basis, they would be drawn from the 10 ridings where it did best in the popular vote.

The second, in use in Germany and New Zealand, is called mixed-member proportional (MMP). Again, some members, at least 60 per cent, would be elected as they are now, in single-member constituencies. The remainder would be elected from lists of candidates representing the parties in each region of the province, based on the parties’ share of the vote in that region. Here is where the details matter. Many people dislike party lists, fearing these leave the parties to decide which candidates are elected from them. That’s certainly one possibility. But against such “closed” lists, where voters simply indicate their choice of party, are “open” lists, where voters choose the candidates directly. It is unfortunate that this question has not been settled — though even closed lists would not differ all that much from the status quo, where candidates in a riding are often hand-picked by the party leader.

Finally, the system I prefer: rural-urban proportional (RUP). It’s a hybrid of two existing systems. In the cities, where most people live, voters would choose among candidates in multi-member ridings using a ranked ballot: the system known as the single-transferable vote (STV), familiar from B.C.’s two previous referendums and in use today in Ireland, Scotland and Australia. In more sparsely-populated areas, where multi-member ridings would be impractically large, a small number of single-member ridings would be preserved, topped up by an even smaller number of members elected from regional lists a la MMP.

Why do I prefer RUP? Mostly for the STV part. First, it maximizes voter choice: voters can vote directly for the candidates they prefer, whether or not they like a candidate’s party. Second, it represents voters in proportion to their party preferences, not just at the provincial or regional level, but in each riding. Both DMP and MMP try to achieve proportionality by compensating for the distortions of FTTP with members elected by other means; STV builds proportionality from the riding level up.

But again: any of the three would be miles better than the status quo. B.C. has a rare opportunity here to fix an electoral system that no longer works. It would be a tragic mistake to let a few complaints about process get in the way.
 
And yet we managed to survive this so-called election travesty. That's one of the problems I have with this whole issue. We've somehow managed to survive, and some would say thrive for over 150 years with the FPTP electoral system. But now, for some reason, the math experts seem to think we need to change the system to something that makes more sense from a mathematical point of view but without any real evidence showing how the current system has failed the Country. As for Mr Coyne - I'd feel a bit better about his views if he actually lived in BC. I'd also like to hear something from him about the ham handed way our current coalition government has handled the whole decision process. Given his history, I'm surprised Mr Coyne would accept the "trust us to work out the details" from any political party.

But yet here is proof that it has failed us. That's why we need to fix it for the future.
index.php
 
My point is that everyone is focussing on the mathematical result of the electoral system in terms of %'age popular vote relative to the number of seats held in the Legislature rather than how the Governments performed once in power under the current electoral system. I submit that for the most part, our current system had delivered stable governments that have performed pretty well over the long term - under both NDP and Liberal administrations. The current system generally delivers Governments that operate on either side of the centre of the political spectrum - but not too far off that centre. The so-called "big tent" parties tend to blunt the effects of the far right and far left influences. The problem I see arising out of PR is the splintering of the far left/far right parties such that they could garner sufficient support across the entire voting spectrum to have members in the Legislature who have not been elected in any particular riding but selected from Party lists. These Parties could wind up with the balance of power in a coalition government - Witness what is happening in several European countries now with the resurgence of far right parties.
Again, if one looks purely at the mathematics of the system, PR looks pretty good. However, I prefer to look at the how the Province has been governed under the present system and frankly, I don't see any particular reason to change - particularly when the current process leaves so much to be determined after the vote.
Anyway - that's my view on this whole thing, I don't think there's anything more of value that I can add to the discussion that is going to change anyone's mind - so I'm done...
 
Comments on the last two posts.
FUD
fear - uncertainty - doubt
Fear "the jackboots are coming" keep a lookout under your bed for the reds ...... The question I would like answered is, why after ww2 when the British and the Americans setup an electoral system in Germany they picked PR rather than FPTP. They had a chance to look at their systems and then chose a different way for a reason. They understood the flaw in their system.
Uncertainty Where math is turned into “voodoo math” because he doesn't understand it or purposely misrepresents it. That begs the question as to why he would do this. The excuse is ...... it can't work because the math makes no sense. Nonsense, the math is easy and fair.
Doubt Spin the lies and tell everyone that the other side is lying and that makes you wonder what the truth is. Until we know, keep it safe and continue with the current course. Perfect, paralyze everyone so nothing changes.

The truth is that powerful interest would prefer the system we have now as it works well for them. They know the game and are well versed in the 'in's and out's" of the system. Here is our chance to break this endless cycle of adversity and force cooperation in goverency. Unleash competition of ideas so the best one wins not just say the opposite so that you don't agree. One only has to watch the mindless statements that come from our so called leaders on both side of any issue here in Canada.

Force Them To Work Together
Not sure if you”re talking the pro or con camps. Pretty much can be said about both. I find it serves no purpose to resort to name calling which both sides supporters tend to do!
 
Not sure if you”re talking the pro or con camps. Pretty much can be said about both. I find it serves no purpose to resort to name calling which both sides supporters tend to do!

I was referring to the two post that nog did for the con side and I agree that name calling is counter productive.

Post # 113
Don’t be fooled by the hocus pocus of pro rep math
By Mel Rothenburger

and

Post # 114
The Big Lie
John Winter: British Columbians are being sold a bill of goods
 
My point is that everyone is focussing on the mathematical result of the electoral system in terms of %'age popular vote relative to the number of seats held in the Legislature rather than how the Governments performed once in power under the current electoral system. I submit that for the most part, our current system had delivered stable governments that have performed pretty well over the long term - under both NDP and Liberal administrations. The current system generally delivers Governments that operate on either side of the centre of the political spectrum - but not too far off that centre. The so-called "big tent" parties tend to blunt the effects of the far right and far left influences. The problem I see arising out of PR is the splintering of the far left/far right parties such that they could garner sufficient support across the entire voting spectrum to have members in the Legislature who have not been elected in any particular riding but selected from Party lists. These Parties could wind up with the balance of power in a coalition government - Witness what is happening in several European countries now with the resurgence of far right parties.
Again, if one looks purely at the mathematics of the system, PR looks pretty good. However, I prefer to look at the how the Province has been governed under the present system and frankly, I don't see any particular reason to change - particularly when the current process leaves so much to be determined after the vote.
Anyway - that's my view on this whole thing, I don't think there's anything more of value that I can add to the discussion that is going to change anyone's mind - so I'm done...

Thanks for your honest opinion and your well thought out points.
 
Thete are valid reasons to vote for either system that have been discussed here in a mostly civil tone. The main reason to vote no in my opinion is the lack of details on the PR options. The ballot came and it has one small paragraph on each PR option. The details on how those will function are mostly being left up to Horgan and Weaver to decide after the election. Having lived on the US and seen how politicians will gladly destroy the democratic process for personal and party gain (in the US its blatant gerrymandering and voter supression) I do not trust the details to partisan politicians. There may be a PR system better than FPTP, but BC voters have no idea if BC is getting it.
 
I'm just starting to read this thread so someone below may have addressed your post already. Anyways, I am pro-PR for many reasons so i'll put that out there now. The 'extremist' party power argument has been vastly over-stated. The Canada's last federal election, for instance, there were around 20 'fringe' parties on the ballot and guess what % of the popular vote they got cumulatively??? Less than 1%! With a 5% threshold for a single party to have a chance at a seat in the legislature in BC that 'fringe' party would have quite a ways to go. And if somehow a 'fringe' party did manage to get 5% (they would not really be fringe at this point, btw) the only way they would have any serious influence in gov't is if a larger party of 2 decided to partner with them in a coalition. If this happens, voters would remember this at next election and rightfully punish the 'big' party for taking on such a 'fringe' group. In reality, this does not happen with any sort of regularity. Are there a few examples of it in the some 90 or so countries across the world using PR? Of course. There are also some very good examples of FPTP systems electing some leaders with rather extreme views not too far from home (see Ontario & US).

Finally, the BC NDP and Greens would never rule in perpetuity. Once a PR system is adopted, the most likely outcome if for a couple 'new' parties to enter the mix and for them to draw from the 2 current big tent parties, namely the NDP and Liberals. These new parties could well include a couple right-leaning parties that would then have a lot more in common with the BC Liberals than the NDP. Around the world this sort of thing has happened and the result is not consistent left wing governments in perpetuity but rather more centrist coalition governments flipping between slightly left-leaning to slightly-right leaning. The HUGE benefit of more centrist governments is that is reduces the expensive, annoying, and civility-destructive phenomenon known as 'policy lurch' whereby the government in power implements all sorts of legislations only to have it all undone by the next party in power that sees things totally differently... and the cycle continues as parties with huge idealogical differences swap between being in and out of power. With more coalition governments (which typically happens under PR systems) we can expect more collaborative legislation that will last. This means more stable legislation... and you know who likes stability.... businesses!

I am against the reform. While first past the post is not perfect, it results in much more stable governments. The majority of the time it avoids the coalitions needed to form governments, and usually avoids the situation of the non top vote getting party taking power. Of course this did not work in the last BC election and resulted in a coalition taking over from the top vote getting party. Under proportional representation this will become the norm, not the exception. The main flaw of proportional representation is it gives outsized power to small "kingmaker" parties who are needed to form the coalitions. In Europe it has meant outsized influence of far left parties, while in Israel it has resulted in the same for far right parties. In BC the NDP and Greens want it as they see it as a way to rule the province in perpetuity.
 
I'm just starting to read this thread so someone below may have addressed your post already. Anyways, I am pro-PR for many reasons so i'll put that out there now. The 'extremist' party power argument has been vastly over-stated. The Canada's last federal election, for instance, there were around 20 'fringe' parties on the ballot and guess what % of the popular vote they got cumulatively??? Less than 1%! With a 5% threshold for a single party to have a chance at a seat in the legislature in BC that 'fringe' party would have quite a ways to go. And if somehow a 'fringe' party did manage to get 5% (they would not really be fringe at this point, btw) the only way they would have any serious influence in gov't is if a larger party of 2 decided to partner with them in a coalition. If this happens, voters would remember this at next election and rightfully punish the 'big' party for taking on such a 'fringe' group. In reality, this does not happen with any sort of regularity. Are there a few examples of it in the some 90 or so countries across the world using PR? Of course. There are also some very good examples of FPTP systems electing some leaders with rather extreme views not too far from home (see Ontario & US).

Finally, the BC NDP and Greens would never rule in perpetuity. Once a PR system is adopted, the most likely outcome if for a couple 'new' parties to enter the mix and for them to draw from the 2 current big tent parties, namely the NDP and Liberals. These new parties could well include a couple right-leaning parties that would then have a lot more in common with the BC Liberals than the NDP. Around the world this sort of thing has happened and the result is not consistent left wing governments in perpetuity but rather more centrist coalition governments flipping between slightly left-leaning to slightly-right leaning. The HUGE benefit of more centrist governments is that is reduces the expensive, annoying, and civility-destructive phenomenon known as 'policy lurch' whereby the government in power implements all sorts of legislations only to have it all undone by the next party in power that sees things totally differently... and the cycle continues as parties with huge idealogical differences swap between being in and out of power. With more coalition governments (which typically happens under PR systems) we can expect more collaborative legislation that will last. This means more stable legislation... and you know who likes stability.... businesses!

And what one of the 3 PR systems would this play out best under?
 
Now this is going to be "interesting"!!

B.C. Liberal leader Andrew Wilkinson has got his date for a head-to-head debate with Premier John Horgan on proportional representation.

https://www.albernivalleynews.com/news/b-c-leaders-referendum-debate-set-for-nov-8/

And just as interesting, the one politico who is setting up this foolishness and is in the best position to realize gains should it somehow be approved, will be missing from the table when the debate takes place. Omission by intent methinks...

Cheers,
Nog
 
Now this is going to be "interesting"!!

B.C. Liberal leader Andrew Wilkinson has got his date for a head-to-head debate with Premier John Horgan on proportional representation.

https://www.albernivalleynews.com/news/b-c-leaders-referendum-debate-set-for-nov-8/

And just as interesting, the one politico who is setting up this foolishness and is in the best position to realize gains should it somehow be approved, will be missing from the table when the debate takes place. Omission by intent methinks...

Cheers,
Nog

Could you imagine the pushback if it was two against one in a leaders debate. One side with 2/3 of the time to express their views and only 1/3 of the time for the otherside. I have seen plenty of debates in my time but I have never heard of such a thing and frankly would seriously consider the debate as illegitimate.
 
Very interesting discussion. I’m really trying to understand why some people still want FPTP. From reading here, I see the following arguments:

1) The results we get from FPTP have been OK and I don’t see the need to change:
Things may seem OK but I would argue the result is not what the majority had voted for. Best example is 1996 election. BC liberals: 41.82% of the vote, BC NDP 39.45% of the vote. BC NDP get majority government with a minority of votes because of FPTP. Was this what voters had intended? Clearly not and we got the failed fast ferries as a result. Also note that BC Liberals were in favour of PR while in opposition.

2) The PR systems are confusing:
This really insults the intelligence of voters in BC. If voters in Germany, New Zealand and 90+ other countries can understand it shouldn’t we assume that BC can handle it? Also, the concept is simple %votes = %seats. There is also plenty of information on each proposed system online to make a choice.

3) I don’t trust the NDP / Greens to implement a fair system:
This may be a valid concern if they were inventing these system from scratch (they are not). However, if they were really going to rig the system, they would have just legislated it already. Instead they are actually giving us choices. The government needs long term buy-in from the public for this change, otherwise the next gov will just change it to suit them. This is also why there will be another referendum after two elections in case we don’t like it. It would be a long term failure for them to mandate an unfair system that gets rejected at a later date. Also, if our PR system ends up looking biased when compared to examples in other countries, the public will punish the gov for it (remember HST?).

4) ****’s will take over:
tincan has a great response to this. Basically we’ll have a 5% threshold to prevent extreme fringe parties.

In general I would look at this from a voter’s perspective rather than what the parties want. Personally, I’m tired of having my vote wasted every election because I live in a “safe” riding where the seat has not changed hands in more than 27 years.

I want my vote to count. I also want your vote to count too.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top