Climate: LNG in B.C. vs Alberta tarsands

Status
Not open for further replies.
There are two sides to this and scientists say so.
You who think that is is mans fault may be very wrong.
The otherside is allowed an opinion and it is so sad to see you have closed the doors to only your opinion.
 
There are two sides to this and scientists say so.
You who think that is is mans fault may be very wrong.
The otherside is allowed an opinion and it is so sad to see you have closed the doors to only your opinion.
Everyone can have an opinion but there is only one set of facts.
Base your argument on facts then others might listen.
Quoting denial blogs like "Watts" and "Friends of Science" is not a worthy argument.
If you can't find blogs that have good science try science websites like "Scientific America"
http://www.scientificamerican.com/

Here is another site with good info. http://www.sciencedaily.com/

Heck you could even go to this one. http://www.ec.gc.ca/cc/Default.asp?lang=En&n=9853BFC5-1

Check your "scientist" use Google ... http://letmegooglethat.com/?q=Anthony+Watts+desmog

Your "friends of science" are just a front group for the Oil Companies.
They not even a very good front group as they have been found out long ago.
Their threats of lawsuits were called out and they turned tail.
Surprised they came back.. guess they thought we would forget.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Friends_of_Science#U_of_C_internal_audit

http://www.desmogblog.com/busted-new-climate-denial-site-climatechange101ca-shares-mailing-address-oily-friends-science


Lets see how your "friends of Science ' roll....


[h=2]University of Calgary Audit Exposes Friends of Science Wrongdoing[/h]A University of Calgary audit into its relationship with the climate lobby group, Friends of Science (FOS), reveals that in setting up two trust funds on behalf of FOS, U of C Professor Barry Cooper may have contravened Revenue Canada and Elections Canada laws - and, in diverting money to his wife and daughter, he most certainly broke rules at the University itself.
The audit was assessing allegations that:
1. Prof. Cooper helped secure Revenue tax receipts for FOS donors, even though FOS does not have charitable status;
2. Prof. Cooper channeled money through the university that was later used to fund what “may be considered third party advertising under the Elections Act” - an ad campaign that was never registered and would contravene Elections Canada laws;
3. Prof. Cooper vastly overstepped his authority in authorizing payments on behalf of FOS to public relations companies and political lobbyists - in one case dispersing more than $100,000 to the PR firm APCO Worldwide;
4. Prof. Cooper used U of C trust fund money to “employ” his wife and daughter, without appropriate permission and in contravention of university rules.
5. The activities funded through the trust accounts “were not legitimate scientific research and education and were funded by anonymous donors to promote special interests.”
The U of C Auditors glossed over the first two allegations, appropriately leaving any determination of wrongdoing to Revenue Canada and Elections Canada, which are currently reviewing the case. (Elections Canada initiated its investigation after DeSmogBlog manager Kevin Grandia filed a complaint, but the University itself referred its findings to both Revenue Canada and Elections Canada.)
On items #3 and #4, the audit revealed evidence that Prof. Cooper is most certainly guilty.
And on item #5, on the question of whether any part of Cooper's FOS activities could legitimately be categorized as “scientific research and education,” the auditors said: “the evidence is not conclusive.”
This investigation was triggered more than two years ago when a retired oil geologist named Albert Jacobs told the Globe and Mail that Cooper set up the U of C trust funds so that FOS could receive money from oil and gas firms but still claim that it was an independent organization. The anonymous donors would give money to the Calgary Foundation, which would then write a cheque to Cooper's “educational” trusts. And Cooper would pass the money along to the Friends of Science.
The U of C audit confirms that the Calgary Foundation gave Cooper's trust accounts two cheques of $100,000 each. The auditors also confirm that another $100,000 was donated by someone “known to the university” who had asked to remain anonymous. And all this money was given to the FOS.

Yet, the auditors say: “None of the grants funding to the (Cooper trust) Accounts were from anonymous donors.”
This, clearly, strains the definition of “anonymous.” If the donors could hide behind the Calgary Foundation - or even the university itself - their anonymity is intact, and the Friends of Science could continue to say that they had received no money from oil companies; most of their funding came from Barry Cooper's slush fund.
But while the auditors seemed to be covering the university's tracks wherever they could, they still recorded a good deal of damning evidence. For example (and as the DeSmogBlog has reported before), FOS boasted in its own newsletter that it was specifically targeting swing federal ridings with the advertising campaign that ran “coincidentally” in the middle of the last election. FOS further boasted in a post-election newsletter that their efforts had been successful.
On the question of whether FOS donors received tax donations inappropriately, the auditors included this quote, taken from the FOS website:
An attachment from the FOS website stating: “You can now make a tax deductible donation to the Friends of Science by using the newly established Trust Account with the University of Calgary.” No mention here, or anywhere, that donors might be wanting to support university research or impartial “education”.

Missing at this point is any mention of consequences. Although the auditors made many intelligent recommendations to prevent the recurrence of this sort of trouble, and although the university agreed pretty much throughout to follow through on that advice, at no point does anyone suggest that the university might call Cooper to account. In fact, Cooper's name is blanked out throughout the document - as is a fair amount of other (probably juicy) detail - under the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act.
U of C “had sufficient concerns last year to sever any relationship with Friends of Science,” said Provost and Vice President Academic Alan Harrison. And for that - and for initiating and acting promptly on this audit - the university deserves credit.
It is also appropriate to stand down until Revenue Canada and Elections Canada finish their deliberations. At that point, however, the public interest should take precedence over Cooper's privacy protections. He has broken U of C rules. He has brought a significant amount of embarrassment on the institution. And there is little doubt that he conspired with the Friends of Science to hide the oily origin of their funding.
At some point, he should pay the price.
 
OBD here is the other piece on "FOS"

Ball Bails on Johnson Lawsuit

http://www.desmogblog.com/ball-bails-on-johnson-lawsuit
The self-styled Canadian climate change expert, Dr. Tim Ball, has abandoned his libel suit against University of Lethbridge Professor of Environmental Science Dan Johnson. Ball dropped the suit without conditions, but also without acknowledging that Johnson’s original comments were accurate and were reported in good faith.

“This is great news,” Dr. Johnson said today, “but it still leaves a cloud over my name that I would like removed. Even though I can now demand that Ball pay what the court calls ‘taxed costs,’ that won’t begin to cover the actual legal bills, to make up for lost time or to repair the damage that Ball has done to my reputation.”

Ball, a spokesperson for two industry front groups fighting against climate change regulation, sued Johnson and the Calgary Herald over a letter the paper ran on April 23, 2006. In an earlier Opinion Page article in which Ball attacked the qualifications of renowned climate change author Tim Flannery, the Heralddescribed Ball as “the first climatology PhD in Canada and … a professor of climatology at the University of Winnipeg for 28 years.”

Johnson wrote a Letter to the Editor challenging those details. He noted that when Ball received his PhD (in Geography) in 1983, “Canada already had PhDs in climatology and it is important to recognize them and their research.” Johnson also pointed out that Ball had been a professor for a much shorter time (Ball later admitted eight years), during which Ball did “not show any evidence of research regarding climate and atmosphere.”

Ball filed suit, asking for damages of $325,000 plus costs.

But Calgary Herald satisfied itself as to the accuracy of Dan Johnson’s letter, and rose in defence. In a Statement of Defence filed with the Alberta Court of Queen’s Bench, the Herald dismissed Ball’s “credibility and credentials as an expert on the issue of global warming,” saying: “The Plantiff (Dr. Ball) is viewed as a paid promoter of the agenda of the oil and gas industry rather than as a practicing scientist.”

In the face of this rebuff, and of the earlier Statement of Defence filed by Dan Johnson, Ball discontinued his lawsuit.

Since his retirement from the University of Winnipeg in 1995, Tim Ball has worked as an industry-supported climate-change campaigner, sowing doubt about the science of global warming. He first associated himself with a Calgary-based group called the Friends of Science, which the Globe and Mail reported in August of 2006 was funded primarily by the oil and gas industry. Ball then moved to the chairmanship of a new group called the Natural Resources Stewardship Project, which the Toronto Star reported in January 2007, is a creation of the Toronto-based energy-industry lobby firm the High Park Group.

“I never intended any specific damage to Tim Ball’s reputation,” Dan Johnson said today. “But climate change is a critical global issue and I thought it was important to set the record straight. If people want to argue the science, I’m all for that, but Tim Ball was claiming expertise and specific credentials that he does not have. That needed to be corrected.”

Johnson said he is now considering whether to accept basic costs or to seek special costs, adding, “I also deserve an apology. I think the nation deserves an apology.”

Johnson said he would like to thank and acknowledge James Hoggan and the team of DeSmogBlog.com for offering considerable assistance in putting together his defence.
 
[h=2]Andrew Weaver Sues Tim Ball for Libel[/h]http://www.desmogblog.com/weaver-sues-tim-ball-libel
University of Victoria Professor Andrew Weaver, the Canada Research Chair in Climate Modelling and Analysis, has filed suit for libel against freelance climate change denier Tim Ball.
The suit (attached below) arises from an article that Ball penned for the right-wingy Canada Free Presswebsite, which has since apologized to Weaver for its numerous inaccuracies and stripped from its publicly available pages pretty much everything that Ball has ever written.
In the article, Ball, a former geography professor at the University of Winnipeg with an indifferent academic record and a lifetime peer-reviewed literature output of just four articles (none of them in atmospheric physics), assailed Weaver as uninformed about climate, unqualified to teach and compromised by his lavish funding, accusations for which he offered no proof whatever.
Weaver, a member of the Royal Society of Canada who has authored more than 190 papers, was also a lead author on three of the four reports of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climage Change (IPCC), and is lined up as a lead author on the fifth. He’s also won pretty much all the academic and teaching awards that are available to a Canadian professor who has not yet had his 50th birthday. Ball, famously slow to notice the obvious, apparently didn’t realize that he was overmatched.
Of course, it’s not the first time. Ball sued University of Lethbridge Professor Dan Johnson in October 2006 over imagined slights in a letter to the editor that Johnson had written to the Calgary Herald. When both Johnson and the Heraldfiled a devastating Statements of Defence, Ball turned tail and ran.
But regardless that the suit had exposed the numerous falsehoods that once coloured Balls resume - and regardless that a University of Calgary auditconfirmed that Ball had been accepting money that had been sluiced through a university slush fund that had been set up to conceal the money’s oil industry origins, Ball has continued to write and speak, claiming some higher knowledge of the workings of climate change - actually, of the lack of climate change.
Suddenly, however, he appears to have gone quiet.
 
No, you use your information and i will use mine.
There is not only one set of facts. Are you saying all the scientists i have used are not up to your standards?
Are you only accepting information from the ones you think are right?
 
Questions to ask...
Why do oil companies use front group to deny climate change?
Why are psychology professional now studying climate deniers?
Why when every time deniers go to court they lose?
Why is 97% of the climate professional tell us that this is a dangerous course?

If you were going to put your family on a plane and 97% of the professional, who are charged with safety of the flight, told you not to get on because it was not going to turn out well. Would you put your family on that flight?

I had a conversation with of friend of mine that has similar views.
He confessed that he was listening to opinions and not doing critical thinking for himself.
He had no time to search out the facts and relied on his trust in the media.
I understand because we seem to get this constant TV commercial how Oil is good and Harper has an action plan.
Well my friend.... we see that it's not working that way.
You and I know that's something is up.....
Remember when Puntledge lost all their Coho smolts to high temps?
Never happened before did it? Now they can't even raise them because of the risk.
Island Scallops lost 3 years worth of crop last winter.... so did FN at Quadra island.
Record dry spells every few years here in the Valley.
Record fry salvage by Judy this year.....
Arctic ice is melting before our very eyes, wont be long till it's gone in the summer.
Oil companies are planning to move in there to drill and ship oil.
Glacier National Park has lost most of it's glaciers.
Pine beetle has destroyed BC forests.

I could go on but wont.
You are a man of the outdoors and I consider you a friend.
Something is happening out there and there is only one conclusion.
This is too important to the things we both cherish.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
No, you use your information and i will use mine.
There is not only one set of facts. Are you saying all the scientists i have used are not up to your standards?
Are you only accepting information from the ones you think are right?

I know lets get all the facts on the table let all the science papers be judged.
Use different teams to take the facts and data and independently sift through everything.
Reproduce the results with independent teams.
Reproduce the conclusions using different approaches.
Gather everyone in one spot and let them hash it out.
Take the results and publish to the world......
Sounds like IPCC don't it.
 
Fact, the ipcc has lied to the people and to you.
They got caught.
 
Fact, the ipcc has lied to the people and to you.
They got caught.
Prove it without quoting some denial blog....
do they make mistakes? sure but they correct them.
Are they 100% perfect?... please.... no one is.
Finding an error in the report does not make the whole thing wrong.
I does not work that way. Would you consider 1 error on a math exam a fail?
The fact is we have a problem and denying the problem is not helpful.
We can't get to solutions if we do nothing.....
We can't just hope the problem will some how go away.

Critical thinking ... use it....
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Date:

September 18, 2014

Source:
National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration

Summary:
According to NOAA scientists, the globally averaged temperature over land and ocean surfaces for August 2014 was the highest for August since record keeping began in 1880. It also marked the 38th consecutive August with a global temperature above the 20th century average. The last below-average global temperature for August occurred in 1976.


This monthly summary from NOAA's National Climatic Data Center in Asheville, N.C., is part of the suite of climate services NOAA provides to government, the business sector, academia, and the public to support informed decision making.
Global temperature highlights: August

  • Land and Ocean Combined: The combined average temperature over global land and ocean surfaces for August 2014 was the record highest for the month, at 61.45°F (16.35°C), or 1.35°F (0.75°C) above the 20th century average of 60.1°F (15.6°C). The margin of error is +/- 0.22°F (0.12°C).This temperature beats the previous record set in 1998 by 0.07°F (0.04°C). Including August, three of the past four months had record high global temperatures for their respective months; the exception was July 2014 which ranked fourth highest for the month.
  • Land Only: The August global land temperature was the second highest for August on record, behind only 1998, at 1.78°F (0.99°C) above the 20th century average of 56.9°F (13.8°C), with a margin of error of +/- 0.43°F (0.24°C). Warmer than average temperatures were evident over most of the global land surface, except for parts of western Europe, northern Siberia, parts of eastern Asia and much of central Australia stretching north.
  • Some national land temperature highlights include:
    • Following a record warm July, Norway had an August temperature that was 1.8°F (1.0°C) higher than the 1961-1990 long-term average for the country.
    • The U.K. had its coolest August since 1993, with a temperature 1.8°F (1.0°C) below its 1981-2010 average. It also ended a streak of eight consecutive warmer-than-average months.
  • Ocean Only: The August global sea surface temperature was 1.17°F (0.65°C) above the 20th century average of 61.4°F (16.4°C), the highest on record for August. This departure from average not only beats the previous August record set in 2005 by 0.14°F (0.08°C), but also beats the previous all-time record set just two months ago in June 2014 by 0.05°F (0.03°C). The margin of error is +/- 0.09°F (0.05°C). Record warmth was observed across much of the central and western equatorial Pacific along with sections scattered across the eastern Pacific and regions of the western Indian Ocean, particularly notable in the waters east of Madagascar.
  • Neither El Niño nor La Niña conditions were present across the central and eastern equatorial Pacific Ocean during August 2014. NOAA's Climate Prediction Center estimates that there is a 60-65 percent chance that El Niño conditions will develop during the Northern Hemisphere fall and winter.
Global temperature highlights: June-August

  • Land and Ocean Combined: The combined average temperature over global land and ocean surfaces for June-August was the highest on record for this period, at 1.28°F (0.71°C) above the 20th century average of 61.5°F (16.4°C). The margin of error is +/- 0.22°F (0.12°C).
  • Land Only: The global land temperature was the fifth highest on record for June-August, at 1.64°F (0.91°C) above the 20th century average of 56.9°F (13.8°C). The margin of error is +/- 0.36°F (0.20°C).
  • Some national land temperature highlights include:
    • Although the temperature was 0.4°F (0.2°C) higher than the 1981-2010 average, summer 2014 was the coolest since 2005 for Austria since records began in 1884.
    • Summer in Denmark was 2.9°F (1.6°C) warmer than the 1961-1990 average and 0.7°F (0.4°C) warmer than the more recent 2001-2010 average. The second highest July temperature on record contributed to the summer warmth.
  • Ocean Only: The June-August global sea surface temperature was 1.13°F (0.63°C), above the 20th century average of 61.5°F (16.4°C), the highest for June-August on record. This beats the previous record set in 2009 by 0.08°F (0.04°C). The margin of error is +/- 0.09°F (0.05°C). Much warmer than average temperatures were observed across most of the Indian Ocean and large parts of the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. Record warmth was particularly notable across a large swath of the Indian Ocean and parts of the western equatorial and northern Pacific Ocean.
Snow and ice highlights: August

  • Arctic: The average Arctic sea ice extent for August was 2.40 million square miles, 390,000 square miles (13.9 percent) below the 1981-2010 average and the seventh smallest August extent since records began in 1979 but the largest since 2009, according to the National Snow and Ice Data Center. Sea ice extent was below average throughout much of the Arctic except the Barents Sea. By the end of August, the Northern Sea Route was open, with ice still blocking the Northwest Passage.
  • Antarctic: On the opposite pole, the Antarctic sea ice extent for August was 7.41 million square miles, 420,000 square miles (6.0 percent) above the 1981-2010 average. This was the largest August Antarctic sea ice extent since records began in 1979, surpassing the previous record large August sea ice extent that occurred in 2013 by about 90,000 square miles. The last five months have had record large sea ice extent in the Antarctic. The August Antarctic sea ice extent was also the eighth largest for any month.
Precipitation highlights: August and June-August

  • Extreme wetness was observed during August across part of the central United States, parts of northern Europe, central Siberia, Japan and eastern Australia. Much of Japan received heavy rainfall from Typhoons Nakri and Halong during the first half of the month. Extreme dryness was scattered across small regions of each of the major continents.
    • The cooler-than-average August temperatures in the U.K. were accompanied by wet conditions. August tied as the seventh wettest since records began in 1910, due in part to ex-Hurricane Bertha passing over the U.K. on the 10th and 11th. Northern Scotland was record wet.
    • Latvia reported its fifth wettest August on record and second wettest for the 21st century, receiving 178 percent of the country's long-term average precipitation.
    • In France, even with a drier than average June, total summer (June-August) precipitation was more than 140 percent of average, marking one of the 10 wettest summers since national records began in 1959. It was the wettest July-August period on record for the country.
    • The Southwest Monsoon brought just 82 percent of the long-term (1951-2000) average rainfall to India for the period June 1 to August 27. All regions were below average. Northwest India received just 66 percent of its average amount, while the South Peninsula was closest to its long-term average among all regions, at 89 percent of average. By the end of August, the monsoon trough was generally near the Himalayan foothills.
Global temperature highlights: Year-to-date

  • Land and Ocean Combined: January-August was the third warmest such period on record, with a combined global land and ocean average surface temperature 1.22°F (0.68°C) above the 20th century average of 57.3°F (14.0°C). If 2014 maintains this temperature departure from average for the remainder of the year, it will be the warmest year on record. The margin of error is +/- 0.20°F (0.11°C).
  • Land Only: The January-August worldwide land surface temperature was 1.82°F (1.01°C) above the 20th century average, the fifth warmest such period on record. The margin of error is +/- 0.41°F (0.23°C).
  • Ocean Only: The global ocean surface temperature for the year to date was 0.99°F (0.55°C) above average, tying with 2010 as the second warmest such period on record, behind only 1998. The margin of error is +/-0.09°F (0.05°C).
On the Web:


201401-201408.gif
 
Last edited by a moderator:
So, reply to this?????


SPIEGEL: Just since the turn of the millennium, humanity has emitted another 400 billion metric tons of CO2 into the atmosphere, yet temperatures haven't risen in nearly 15 years. What can explain this?

Storch: So far, no one has been able to provide a compelling answer to why climate change seems to be taking a break. We're facing a puzzle. Recent CO2 emissions have actually risen even more steeply than we feared. As a result, according to most climate models, we should have seen temperatures rise by around 0.25 degrees Celsius (0.45 degrees Fahrenheit) over the past 10 years. That hasn't happened. In fact, the increase over the last 15 years was just 0.06 degrees Celsius (0.11 degrees Fahrenheit) -- a value very close to zero. This is a serious scientific problem that the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) will have to confront when it presents its next Assessment Report late next year.

SPIEGEL: Do the computer models with which physicists simulate the future climate ever show the sort of long standstill in temperature change that we're observing right now?

Storch: Yes, but only extremely rarely. At my institute, we analyzed how often such a 15-year stagnation in global warming occurred in the simulations. The answer was: in under 2 percent of all the times we ran the simulation. In other words, over 98 percent of forecasts show CO2 emissions as high as we have had in recent years leading to more of a temperature increase.

SPIEGEL: How long will it still be possible to reconcile such a pause in global warming with established climate forecasts?

Storch: If things continue as they have been, in five years, at the latest, we will need to acknowledge that something is fundamentally wrong with our climate models. A 20-year pause in global warming does not occur in a single modeled scenario. But even today, we are finding it very difficult to reconcile actual temperature trends with our expectations.

SPIEGEL: What could be wrong with the models?

Storch: There are two conceivable explanations -- and neither is very pleasant for us. The first possibility is that less global warming is occurring than expected because greenhouse gases, especially CO2, have less of an effect than we have assumed. This wouldn't mean that there is no man-made greenhouse effect, but simply that our effect on climate events is not as great as we have believed. The other possibility is that, in our simulations, we have underestimated how much the climate fluctuates owing to natural causes.

SPIEGEL: That sounds quite embarrassing for your profession, if you have to go back and adjust your models to fit with reality…

Storch: Why? That's how the process of scientific discovery works. There is no last word in research, and that includes climate research. It's never the truth that we offer, but only our best possible approximation of reality. But that often gets forgotten in the way the public perceives and describes our work.

SPIEGEL: But it has been climate researchers themselves who have feigned a degree of certainty even though it doesn't actually exist. For example, the IPCC announced with 95 percent certainty that humans contribute to climate change.

Storch: And there are good reasons for that statement. We could no longer explain the considerable rise in global temperatures observed between the early 1970s and the late 1990s with natural causes. My team at the Max Planck Institute for Meteorology, in Hamburg, was able to provide evidence in 1995 of humans' influence on climate events. Of course, that evidence presupposed that we had correctly assessed the amount of natural climate fluctuation. Now that we have a new development, we may need to make adjustments.

SPIEGEL: In which areas do you need to improve the models?

Storch: Among other things, there is evidence that the oceans have absorbed more heat than we initially calculated. Temperatures at depths greater than 700 meters (2,300 feet) appear to have increased more than ever before. The only unfortunate thing is that our simulations failed to predict this effect.

SPIEGEL: That doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

Storch: Certainly the greatest mistake of climate researchers has been giving the impression that they are declaring the definitive truth. The end result is foolishness along the lines of the climate protection brochures recently published by Germany's Federal Environmental Agency under the title "Sie erwärmt sich doch" ("The Earth is getting warmer"). Pamphlets like that aren't going to convince any skeptics. It's not a bad thing to make mistakes and have to correct them. The only thing that was bad was acting beforehand as if we were infallible. By doing so, we have gambled away the most important asset we have as scientists: the public's trust. We went through something similar with deforestation, too -- and then we didn't hear much about the topic for a long time.

SPIEGEL: Does this throw the entire theory of global warming into doubt?

Storch: I don't believe so. We still have compelling evidence of a man-made greenhouse effect. There is very little doubt about it. But if global warming continues to stagnate, doubts will obviously grow stronger.

SPIEGEL: Do scientists still predict that sea levels will rise?

Storch: In principle, yes. Unfortunately, though, our simulations aren't yet capable of showing whether and how fast ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica will melt -- and that is a very significant factor in how much sea levels will actually rise. For this reason, the IPCC's predictions have been conservative. And, considering the uncertainties, I think this is correct.

SPIEGEL: And how good are the long-term forecasts concerning temperature and precipitation?

Storch: Those are also still difficult. For example, according to the models, the Mediterranean region will grow drier all year round. At the moment, however, there is actually more rain there in the fall months than there used to be. We will need to observe further developments closely in the coming years. Temperature increases are also very much dependent on clouds, which can both amplify and mitigate the greenhouse effect. For as long as I've been working in this field, for over 30 years, there has unfortunately been very little progress made in the simulation of clouds.

SPIEGEL: Despite all these problem areas, do you still believe global warming will continue?

Storch: Yes, we are certainly going to see an increase of 2 degrees Celsius (3.6 degrees Fahrenheit) or more -- and by the end of this century, mind you. That's what my instinct tells me, since I don't know exactly how emission levels will develop. Other climate researchers might have a different instinct. Our models certainly include a great number of highly subjective assumptions. Natural science is also a social process, and one far more influenced by the spirit of the times than non-scientists can imagine. You can expect many more surprises.

SPIEGEL: What exactly are politicians supposed to do with such vague predictions?

Storch: Whether it ends up being one, two or three degrees, the exact figure is ultimately not the important thing. Quite apart from our climate simulations, there is a general societal consensus that we should be more conservative with fossil fuels. Also, the more serious effects of climate change won't affect us for at least 30 years. We have enough time to prepare ourselves.

SPIEGEL: In a SPIEGEL interview 10 years ago, you said, "We need to allay people's fear of climate change." You also said, "We'll manage this." At the time, you were harshly criticized for these comments. Do you still take such a laidback stance toward global warming?

Storch: Yes, I do. I was accused of believing it was unnecessary to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. This is not the case. I simply meant that it is no longer possible in any case to completely prevent further warming, and thus it would be wise of us to prepare for the inevitable, for example by building higher ocean dikes. And I have the impression that I'm no longer quite as alone in having this opinion as I was then. The climate debate is no longer an all-or-nothing debate -- except perhaps in the case of colleagues such as a certain employee of Schellnhuber's, whose verbal attacks against anyone who expresses doubt continue to breathe new life into the climate change denial camp.
 
So, reply to this?????

I did at post #379
Did you read the pdf?
Did you watch the video?
You scored a goal on your on team......
Did you read what he said.....?????

Bottom line is this....
Storch: Yes, we are certainly going to see an increase of 2 degrees Celsius (3.6 degrees Fahrenheit) or more -- and by the end of this century, mind you. That's what my instinct tells me, since I don't know exactly how emission levels will develop.

and this

I simply meant that it is no longer possible in any case to completely prevent further warming, and thus it would be wise of us to prepare for the inevitable, for example by building higher ocean dikes.

How much are your grankids going to be paying for that?
Currently Vancouver is looking into that for flood protection and the cost are into the Billions.
Nice... but go ahead root for the oil companies they like it when you do that.
 
Love the cherry picking.
So, did this one sink in yet?
They do not know!
All they said was going to happen is not happening!!
They think, they guess, but they do not know.
Global warming and cooling has happened for ever.

I agree that MAN is screwing up some things , however causing global warming as they are trying to tell us is not true.

Causing rivers to run dry because man raped all the trees and drew down the water for himself that is a fact and nothing is being done about it.
Saying it is the fault of global warming is a joke.





So far, no one has been able to provide a compelling answer to why climate change seems to be taking a break. We're facing a puzzle. Recent CO2 emissions have actually risen even more steeply than we feared. As a result, according to most climate models, we should have seen temperatures rise by around 0.25 degrees Celsius (0.45 degrees Fahrenheit) over the past 10 years. That hasn't happened. In fact, the increase over the last 15 years was just 0.06 degrees Celsius (0.11 degrees Fahrenheit) -- a value very close to zero. This is a serious scientific problem that the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) will have to confront when it presents its next Assessment Report late next year.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
People who live on flood plains and on the edges of oceans were gambling all along.
Oceans have risen and fallen for years.
Why has your government allowed this?



Currently Vancouver is looking into that for flood protection and the cost are into the Billions.
Nice... but go ahead root for the oil companies they like it when you do that.
 
Love the cherry picking.
So, did this one sink in yet?
They do not know!
All they said was going to happen is not happening!!
They think, they guess, but they do not know.
Global warming and cooling has happened for ever.

Have you every thought to find out what the scientists say about this "pause" or do you just take some info from some questionable denial blog and treat that like fact. If you truly looked for facts you would already know the answer.
Sure temps are going up slower then predicted but what are we talking about a fraction of a degree. Take a look at the table below. Does that look like things are back to normal?
201401-201408.gif
The data is right there and it is clear what is happening. You would have an argument if there was some blue bars showing in the last 20 years. There is not one blue bar and that is a fact. Your arguments are just grasping at straws.....

If you want some explanation for the "pause" lets see what science says.
Notice I'm sending you to reputable site Yale University
http://www.yaleclimateconnections.o...e-of-trade-winds-volcanoes-in-warming-hiatus/
Climate scientists are continuing to work hard to better understand why Earth has warmed more slowly over the past decade than predicted by most climate models. In February alone, two new important papers have been published in Nature journals that address different aspects of the problem.

The first, by Matthew England and colleagues, argues that the strengthening of trade winds over the Pacific Ocean have increased ocean mixing and heat uptake, and that including these wind changes in climate models explains much of the apparent pause.
The second, by Ben Santer and colleagues, suggests that 17 small volcanic eruptions since 1999 have had a modest cooling effect, and that incorporating them into models helps explain divergences in temperatures of the lower part of the atmosphere. Both papers suggest that the factors behind the hiatus are temporary, and do not undermine longer-term projected warming.
Blowing in the Wind

The Earth’s oceans contain the vast majority of the heat absorbed from the Sun. Earth’s atmosphere doesn’t hold much heat, and air temperatures are sensitive to changes in the rate at which the oceans transfer heat to the air. Ocean heat uptake can be impacted by winds; the more windy it is, the more turbulence occurs in the upper layers of the ocean, and the more heat can be transferred quickly from the ocean surface to deeper layers.
England and his co-authors looked at trends in Pacific trade winds, and found a dramatic increase in strength since the late 1990s. The figure below, from their paper, shows global temperatures at the top and trade winds at the bottom, with negative values indicating the acceleration of Pacific trade winds.
0214_volcano_1.jpg

When they compared changes in wind speed and temperature over the Pacific region in particular, the researchers found that the correlations are quite strong, and they further found that increasing winds seem to have contributed to a large portion of the observed cooling. The figure below, adapted from their paper, shows changes in trade winds (the black arrows in the top panel) and surface air temperatures over the last two decades (in the bottom panel).

0214_volcano_2.jpg


Much of the hiatus in temperatures over the past decade or so has been concentrated in the part of the Pacific where the trade winds have increased, as the rest of the world has largely continued to warm. England and colleagues concluded that “a pronounced strengthening in Pacific trade winds over the past two decades — unprecedented in observations/reanalysis data and not captured by climate models — is sufficient to account for the cooling of the tropical Pacific and a substantial slowdown in surface warming through increased subsurface ocean heat uptake.” That led them to their conclusion that “the net effect of these anomalous winds is a cooling in the 2012 global average surface air temperature of 0.1–0.2 degree C, which can account for much of the hiatus in surface warming observed since 2001.”
They also pointed out that the changes in both wind speed and temperatures seem similar to what had occurred in the period from 1940-1975, when global temperatures also had plateaued. Both that period and the current hiatus are associated with a negative phase of what the authors referred to as the Interdecadal Pacific Oscillation (IPO), which is shown in the first figure. This phenomenon has also been referred to as the Pacific Decadal Oscillation, and other modeling work has suggested that hiatus periods are linked to negative phases of the IPO/PDO. The multidecadal pattern of cooling produced is quite similar to that of more common La Niña events, but with a much longer persistence.
England and his co-authors used a number of climate model runs with observed trade wind changes as inputs to see if they could replicate the hiatus and predict what might happen next. They found that “the wind-induced cooling can account for approximately 50 percent of the observed hiatus when comparing the observed and model SAT projections to 2012.”
“Much of the rest of the hiatus can be accounted for when the wind trends are further prescribed in a fully coupled ocean–atmosphere model,” they wrote. The results of their analysis are illustrated in the figure below, which shows the standard IPCC model projections in red and the new trade-wind-forced models in green.

0214_volcano_3.jpg

These results suggest that the current hiatus could persist for much of the current decade if trade winds remain strong, with temperatures again rising to levels predicted in most models once more normal conditions return. However, the researchers did note that models seemed not to capture the types of changes in trade winds observed: “None of 48 climate model experiments examined in detail captures the magnitude of the recent acceleration in Pacific trade winds.” they wrote. “In fact the most extreme acceleration seen in the models is generally less than half that observed.”
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Part 2

[h=4]Small Volcanoes — Big Effects?[/h]Climate scientists long have understood that volcanoes have a cooling effect on Earth’s atmosphere in the years after they erupt. Large volcanoes tend to inject lots of sulfur particles into the high atmosphere (the stratosphere), where it reflects away incoming radiation. It’s easy to see large dips in global temperatures associated with volcanic eruptions like Pinatubo, and the massive eruption of Mount Tambora in 1815 is thought to have caused the famous “year without a summer” in 1816.
Volcanoes cause cooling because sulfur particles are quite reflective. In the high atmosphere, they scatter the Sun’s incoming rays, resulting in less solar radiation reaching Earth and a general dimming of the atmosphere.
With satellites in orbit around the Earth, scientists can now accurately measure just how much sunlight is being reflected away (referred to as stratospheric aerosol optical depth). This capability allows better measurements of the impacts of modern volcanic events. While large volcanic events have by far the largest effect on stratospheric aerosol optical depth, there is also a modest increase over the last decade even in the absence of major volcanoes, with global mean stratospheric aerosol optical depth increasing by 4-7 percent annually from 2000-2009.
Santer and colleagues, in their new Nature Geosciences paper, examined the impact of increased stratospheric aerosol optical depth over the past decade on atmospheric temperatures. This is a factor not well represented by climate models, which generally include no volcanic events in the period from 2000 through 2014. Instead, they have focused primarily on lower tropospheric temperatures (called temperature lower troposphere — TLT), where the divergence between modeled and observed warming has been particularly pronounced.
The figure below, from their paper, shows the range of climate models (in grey) and the multi-model mean (in black) compared to satellite observations (red and blue). The top panel shows the raw data; the middle panel shows the data once the effects of periodic El Niño and La Niña (ENSO) events are removed; and the bottom panel shows ENSO and major volcanoes (Pinatubo and El Chichon) removed.

0214_volcano_4.jpg


Volcanoes tend to have a larger effect on TLT than surface temperatures, so the impact of Pinatubo and El Chichon are relatively easy to see, especially once ENSO effects have been removed. Even once all these external factors have been accounted for, observations are still on the low side of the range predicted by models. As Santer and colleagues remarked in the paper, “after 1999, however, a ‘warming hiatus’ is still apparent in the observed residual TLT time series [even after removing ENSO], but the lower troposphere continues to warm in the CMIP-5 multi-model average.” (CMIP-5 refers to the set of models presented in the latest IPCC report.)
CMIP-5 models have no volcanoes over the last decade, even though 17 relatively modest eruptions have occurred since 1999. Santer and colleagues suggested that the cumulative effect of many small volcanoes over the last decade might help explain a small part of the global temperature discrepancy.
They looked at two different statistical tests. The first test examines each volcanic eruption in turn to look for discernible signals in the TLT response. This method finds that three of the 17 volcanic eruptions since 1999 have effects that are significant, but only at the 10 percent level (in contrast to the 5 percent usually used as the cutoff). The second test looked at the correlation between stratospheric aerosol optical depth and the ENSO-removed TLT data, and led to the detection of stronger, more statistically significant results.
The authors concluded that their tests “suggest that internally generated variability could plausibly explain some of the observed tropical TLT changes after individual ‘small’ eruptions,” but they acknowledged that the volcanoes alone cannot explain the divergence between models and observations, with the discrepancy only reduced between 2 percent and 15 percent depending on the model used.
[h=4]What Comes Next?[/h]While temperatures have warmed modestly over the past decade, they have not warmed as much as had been projected by climate models. There are a number of factors that are not well-captured in climate models, like changes in trade winds, volcanoes, solar output, and ocean heat uptake. Collectively, they likely explain much of the discrepancy. It is also clear that there are still many unknowns surrounding how the climate behaves on a multi-decadal timeframe, and the drivers and impacts of types of natural variability are still poorly understood.
The vast majority of scientific articles examining the hiatus predict that it will be temporary and that the various factors contributing to it will abate in the next decade or so. As University of Colorado science writer Tom Yulsman is fond of saying, the climate bats last, and one benefit of studies that make short-term predictions is that we don’t have to wait that long to see if they are proven correct.
 
Oceans have risen and fallen for years.

That's not my understanding.... Sea levels are going up because of thermal expansion.
Raise the temperature and it expands.

To see sea level trends have a look at this website.
These numbers are very conservative and most current research points to faster upward trend.
http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/sltrends/sltrends.html


Why is Tofino going one way and Vancouver going the other?
Tofino land area is rising. The big problem is the east coast where the land is going down. Double trouble land sinks and sea rises. The sea has been rising since the end of the last ice age. The rate of that has increase is another sign of AGW.

Trend with doubling of CO2 looks bad but we are on track for 4X CO2
This chart only include thermal expansion what happens if Greenland melts?

Projected_change_in_global_sea_level_rise_if_atmospheric_carbon_dioxide_concentrations_were_to_either_quadruple_or_double_%28NOAA_GFDL%29.png


More info worth reading...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_sea_level_rise#Future_sea-level_rise
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Climate Science Is Not Settled

We are very far from the knowledge needed to make good climate policy, writes leading scientist Steven E. Koonin

The idea that “Climate science is settled” runs through today’s popular and policy discussions. Unfortunately, that claim is misguided. It has not only distorted our public and policy debates on issues related to energy, greenhouse-gas emissions and the environment. But it also has inhibited the scientific and policy discussions that we need to have about our climate future.

My training as a computational physicist—together with a 40-year career of scientific research, advising and management in academia, government and the private sector—has afforded me an extended, up-close perspective on climate science. Detailed technical discussions during the past year with leading climate scientists have given me an even better sense of what we know, and don’t know, about climate. I have come to appreciate the daunting scientific challenge of answering the questions that policy makers and the public are asking.

The crucial scientific question for policy isn’t whether the climate is changing. That is a settled matter: The climate has always changed and always will. Geological and historical records show the occurrence of major climate shifts, sometimes over only a few decades. We know, for instance, that during the 20th century the Earth’s global average surface temperature rose 1.4 degrees Fahrenheit.

Nor is the crucial question whether humans are influencing the climate. That is no hoax: There is little doubt in the scientific community that continually growing amounts of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, due largely to carbon-dioxide emissions from the conventional use of fossil fuels, are influencing the climate. There is also little doubt that the carbon dioxide will persist in the atmosphere for several centuries. The impact today of human activity appears to be comparable to the intrinsic, natural variability of the climate system itself.

Rather, the crucial, unsettled scientific question for policy is, “How will the climate change over the next century under both natural and human influences?” Answers to that question at the global and regional levels, as well as to equally complex questions of how ecosystems and human activities will be affected, should inform our choices about energy and infrastructure.

But—here’s the catch—those questions are the hardest ones to answer. They challenge, in a fundamental way, what science can tell us about future climates.

Even though human influences could have serious consequences for the climate, they are physically small in relation to the climate system as a whole. For example, human additions to carbon dioxide in the atmosphere by the middle of the 21st century are expected to directly shift the atmosphere’s natural greenhouse effect by only 1% to 2%. Since the climate system is highly variable on its own, that smallness sets a very high bar for confidently projecting the consequences of human influences.

A second challenge to “knowing” future climate is today’s poor understanding of the oceans. The oceans, which change over decades and centuries, hold most of the climate’s heat and strongly influence the atmosphere. Unfortunately, precise, comprehensive observations of the oceans are available only for the past few decades; the reliable record is still far too short to adequately understand how the oceans will change and how that will affect climate.

A third fundamental challenge arises from feedbacks that can dramatically amplify or mute the climate’s response to human and natural influences. One important feedback, which is thought to approximately double the direct heating effect of carbon dioxide, involves water vapor, clouds and temperature.



We often hear that there is a “scientific consensus” about climate change. But as far as the computer models go, there isn’t a useful consensus at the level of detail relevant to assessing human influences. Since 1990, the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, or IPCC, has periodically surveyed the state of climate science. Each successive report from that endeavor, with contributions from thousands of scientists around the world, has come to be seen as the definitive assessment of climate science at the time of its issue.

For the latest IPCC report (September 2013), its Working Group I, which focuses on physical science, uses an ensemble of some 55 different models. Although most of these models are tuned to reproduce the gross features of the Earth’s climate, the marked differences in their details and projections reflect all of the limitations that I have described. For example:

• The models differ in their descriptions of the past century’s global average surface temperature by more than three times the entire warming recorded during that time. Such mismatches are also present in many other basic climate factors, including rainfall, which is fundamental to the atmosphere’s energy balance. As a result, the models give widely varying descriptions of the climate’s inner workings. Since they disagree so markedly, no more than one of them can be right.

• Although the Earth’s average surface temperature rose sharply by 0.9 degree Fahrenheit during the last quarter of the 20th century, it has increased much more slowly for the past 16 years, even as the human contribution to atmospheric carbon dioxide has risen by some 25%. This surprising fact demonstrates directly that natural influences and variability are powerful enough to counteract the present warming influence exerted by human activity.

Yet the models famously fail to capture this slowing in the temperature rise. Several dozen different explanations for this failure have been offered, with ocean variability most likely playing a major role. But the whole episode continues to highlight the limits of our modeling.

• The models roughly describe the shrinking extent of Arctic sea ice observed over the past two decades, but they fail to describe the comparable growth of Antarctic sea ice, which is now at a record high.

• The models predict that the lower atmosphere in the tropics will absorb much of the heat of the warming atmosphere. But that “hot spot” has not been confidently observed, casting doubt on our understanding of the crucial feedback of water vapor on temperature.

• Even though the human influence on climate was much smaller in the past, the models do not account for the fact that the rate of global sea-level rise 70 years ago was as large as what we observe today—about one foot per century.

• A crucial measure of our knowledge of feedbacks is climate sensitivity—that is, the warming induced by a hypothetical doubling of carbon-dioxide concentration. Today’s best estimate of the sensitivity (between 2.7 degrees Fahrenheit and 8.1 degrees Fahrenheit) is no different, and no more certain, than it was 30 years ago. And this is despite an heroic research effort costing billions of dollars.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top