Climate: LNG in B.C. vs Alberta tarsands

[agentaqua]

BS Walleyes - and you know it. Yes - humans could knock-out quite a few humans, but not likely kill off most of the life on the planet. Where would that leave your stock market and bottom line? No consumers, then. You don't sound like a committed Capitalist at all anymore.

Maybe we should all give up. Give up paying taxes, following laws, or even trying to understand what life is and why we are here. Sorry - don't buy your BS or perspective.

 

[walleyes]

BS Walleyes - and you know it. Yes - humans could knock-out quite a few humans, but not likely kill off most of the life on the planet. Where would that leave your stock market and bottom line? No consumers, then. You don't sound like a confirmed Capitalist at all anymore.

Maybe we should all give up. Give up paying taxes, following laws, or even trying to understand what life is and why we are here. Sorry - don't buy your BS or perspective.

Nor do I buy yours..

At least I am not a hypocrite..

Keep burning that fuel for me boy,, daddy wants a new boat..

 

[triplenickel]

Kinda like Suzuki cruising in his giant eco bus while maintaining multiple homes. One of which being multiple ferry rides to access, really walking the walk eh champ? lol

 

[triplenickel]

The reason the salaries came-up

Why did it come up with me? Good news is the LNG plants are still a few years out so it's not too late to learn some new skills and find a job that will allow you to save for the future. There's lots of the government help you're screaming for in the area of retraining.

 

[GLG]

I'm not sure I agree with the whole getting a new vehicle thing as a net reduction over proper driving and maintenance of an existing vehicle. There's a massive footprint associated with the production of said vehicle, right from the mineral extraction to the importing or all the components needed. Then there's the whole putting another vehicle on the road problem. Even the argument about an actual net savings is often a false economy, the $10k it's gonna cost to upgrade a pickup would likely buy you at least a decades worth of fuel.

Replace your vehicle when it is due with one that uses less fuel. Over the life of the asset you will have a pay back within 3 to 5 years. Yes a new vehicle takes energy to produce but things have changed. Look at Ford and their commitment to reducing GHG.

Ford Motor Co. (F) declared in its 14th annual Sustainability Report that it has successfully reduced CO2 emissions at its global facilities by 37% per vehicle during 2000 to 2012. The automaker is on track to reduce emission level by 30% during 2010 to 2025.

Ford has been able to cut CO2 emissions at its global facilities by 4.65 million metric tons or 47% since 2000. The company also succeeded in reducing emissions at U.S. facilities by 10% per vehicle produced during 2002 and 2012. Even emission level from tailpipe has been decreased by 16% with the introduction of new vehicles like Ford C-MAX Energi plug-in hybrid.

Ford is focused on delivering eco-friendly and quality products together with ensuring sustainability. The automaker strives to develop products and technologies at its facilities in line with its business targets while maintaining sustainable CO2 levels.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ford-reduces-carbon-dioxide-emissions-132002037.html

Personally I keep older stuff in good order and on the road. 2000 Buick, low 30mpg's consistently. 92 GM gas pot as a tow vehicle, less than $100 a month in fuel constantly in the 15mpg range with my driving habits. But 98% of my driving and errand running is on a 1982 Honda 70 scooter! lol 130mpg all day long if I ride lots I might put in $5 a month. Boat powered by a 90 Honda, $30-$50 per fishing day as good as it gets for a salt ready boat. Quit eating beef and dairy 3 years ago.

This is exactly what it takes to reduce our personal co2 levels. Well done. You are not alone as most of my friends are doing the same thing. I guess we could call that a personal Cap & Trade. Sadly my beef consumption is not zero but I'm working on it.

I don't work for Spectra although they do transport our product. I'm right at the well head not a mid streamer. Why do you ask about them specifically? If you use gas in your home Spectra is the company that brings it to the lower mainland, so they supply you.

I don't use Gas any more I gave that up on the last house move. The reason I asked you was this bit from the BC gov website.

[h=3]Which companies have the largest emissions in British Columbia?[/h]The three companies with the largest emissions in 2013 (excluding wood biomass) were:

• Spectra Energy Transmission: 4.7 Mt CO2e
• Teck Coal: 1.5 MT CO2e
• Lafarge Canada: 0.9 Mt CO2e

[h=3]What facilities have the largest emissions in British Columbia?[/h]The individual facilities with the largest emissions in 2013 (excluding wood biomass) were:

• Fort Nelson Gas Plant - Spectra Energy Transmission: 1.5 Mt CO2e
• Transmission Mainline – Spectra Energy Transmission: 0.93 Mt CO2e
• Pine River Gas Plant – Spectra Energy Transmission: 0.83 Mt CO2e

[h=3]What are the reported emissions for the different industry sectors?[/h]Reported emissions for the different industry sectors are as follows (rounded to the nearest 1,000 tCO2e):

SECTOR	2012 (tCO2e)	2013 (tCO2e)	2013 (as %)	% Change from 2012
Oil and Gas	10,084,000	10,291,000	50	2.1
Mining and Smelting	3,612,000	3,349,000	16	-7.3
Cement and Lime	1,647,000	1,904,000	9	15.6
Forest Products	1,748,000	1,648,000	8	-5.7
Electricity and Heat Generation	858,000	949,000	5	10.6
Manufacturing and Refineries	898,000	834,000	4	-7.1
Waste Treatment	401,000	393,000	2	-2.0
BC Emissions Total	19,248,000	19,369,000	n/a	0.6
Electricity Imports	1,158,000	1,342,000	6	15.9
Reported Total	20,406,000	20,711,000	10	1.5

<tbody>
</tbody>

It's clear where the CO2 is coming from and what needs to be done.

If you earned an income in Alberta I'd guess it's about a 98% chance your dollar started as a petro dollar. Property management eh, who do you think your customers were? Who do you think was buying and renting the properties? Where do you think the electrician, cook at BP, grocery store stock boy, car salesman, accountant got their money from? You were and indirect benefactor of the industry, you can't deny it. You've said "follow the money" a couple times so lets play that game. Tell me your 3 top performing funds and lets dissect them and see exactly where the money is, maybe not CNRL or the like directly but I'll wager a significant sum you're only a couple steps away.

My clients were from Chicago so I'm only going to say that my income was at best 10% oil based. They are a commercial property management outfit with buildings across North America. Some buildings had oil companies renting space but they were few and far between. An example would be Sears Tower, no oil companies in there.

From what I see in industry we're not slackers we do everything we can to make it better every single day, in this company at least. No one is in business to lose money and not reducing costs business big time, putting it into the atmosphere instead of a pipeline is totally contradictory to why we do it. I'm all for reducing GHG but just stopping projects isn't the answer. The handful of LNG plants proposed for BC are a drop in the bucket globally and will bring more positives to BC than the few things we'd give in exchange to keep a balance will cost. Canada is a resource extracting country and every dollar starts as one or another. Follow the money.

Your industry is not slackers? Prove it. Find your companies annual Sustainability Report and post the numbers.

LNG is very CO2 intensive unless it can be done using clean electricity. There is no getting around this fact. If 4 or 5 projects get the go ahead the CO2 emitted will be the same as adding the equivalent to another city the size of Vancouver to our province CO2 emissions. Your positive to the province is my negative to the province. How do we keep our CO2 levels down? We have commitments to others to reduce. If we go with your plan we have no hope or every one in BC will have to reduce to zero so that your industry can expand......

 

[GLG]

Canada and Alberta are the leaders in the world when it comes to environmental stewardship and in ovation in extracting hydrocarbons of any kind wether it be Natural gas, light oil or Heavy oil. Our methods are world renowned. Our people are sought after around the world to go teach and run operations.

Yea like Husky?
Canadians expose foreign worker 'mess' in oilsands

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/canadians-expose-foreign-worker-mess-in-oilsands-1.2750730
'Only a matter of time' before someone gets hurt or killed, tradesmen claim

Canadian tradesmen from a huge oilsands construction project are waving a red flag about safety hazards and near misses, which they blame on the use of foreign workers who aren't qualified and can't speak English.
"When you bring in a bunch of workers who are unqualified to do this job it's only a matter of time before you kill someone," said Les Jennings, who was an ironworker supervisor at the Husky Sunrise plant until a few weeks ago, when he quit in frustration.

• Saskatchewan contractor laid off Canadians, retained TFWs

"People are angry and upset," said journeyman ironworker Johnny Demosten, who is still working at the site. He said many of the foreign workers don't know crane hand signals and other safety precautions.
"If they are journeymen, they are supposed to know the signals. It's pretty dangerous."
There are 344 foreigners — skilled tradespeople and others — currently working on site for the Italian-based company Saipem, under contract to build the multi-billion dollar plant 60 kilometres north of Fort McMurray.
The project is over budget and behind its original schedule.
Hazards cited by inspector

"The errors on that site are repetitive and consistent. Mistakes made over and over," said Ryan Slade, a journeyman electrician contracted by Husky last year, as an on-site quality control inspector.
"You used to feel like you were part of something. Now, you feel you are part of the mess."


He said he reported numerous serious concerns about safety and poor workmanship, until, he said, managers told him to stop.
"I keep repeating, 'You are having the same problems over and over' and they said, 'Look, we already know this — don't report it anymore,'" said Slade.
"We will always be vigilant in our safety objectives, and we continue to see steady improvement in results due to stronger alignment amongst all companies on site," Husky spokesperson Mel Duvall said in an email to Go Public.
"We work closely with site contractors on safety, including initiatives for workers to give direct feedback."
"Those [Canadian] guys who do stay up there they are going to save Husky's butt — I guarantee it," said Slade. "They are going to save someone's life by catching poor workmanship before it kills someone."
Blow torch scare

For example, Demosten said, he and other workers were horrified when a foreign worker took a blow torch to a propane tank to defrost it. Others intervened to prevent an explosion.
"That would probably have killed him and hurt people around him. That's the kind of things these people are doing," said Demosten.

The tradesmen also claim several Canadians with better qualifications have been passed over for jobs, while foreign workers from Europe continued to show up.
"We had probably 60 ironworkers come to take the jobs from Canadians," said Jennings.
Saipem said it can't comment on some of the Canadian workers' allegations without evidence, but, overall, it called the claims "misleading".
It points out, 85 per cent of its workers on site are Canadian. It also said its safety record is as good or better than industry standard.
Company refutes claims

"We continue to make safety a priority at the Sunrise site, with continued focus on safety awareness and training of all our workers," said Saipem spokesperson Erika Mandraffino, in an email from Italy.
"We strongly refute any and all claims of any correlation between any alleged safety violations and any group of workers that we have at the project site."

Many of the foreigners did arrive without Canadian-standard trade certification, however. Under government rules, they have a year before they must take their test.
"These workers, in my opinion — because I worked with them side by side — they are not at the same level as a Canadian journeyman. Not even close," said Jennings.
He said he assigned some of them to shovel snow, while earning the ironworker rate of $44 an hour.
"Probably 75 per cent of [foreign] ironworkers on site were only at the level of a labourer."
Jennings is angry with Saipem, because it used his name and red seal certification number on paperwork approving 15 foreigners to take their certification test, after he said he made it clear they weren't qualified.
"When I found out about that I called the industrial training centre and I had [the test approvals] cancelled," said Jennings.
A company HR person texted Jennings at the time, saying, "It was a mistake… I am not trying to get you to approve guys you are not comfortable with."
Foreign workers fail tests

Even when they take the test, he said, most fail but are not sent home. They get another shot at a later date, prolonging their time on the job.
"They should be made to write that test the first week they get here to prove they know the material — then if they don't know it they should go home."

The union for both the domestic and foreign tradespeople confirmed several foreign workers failed and are getting a second chance.
"If they are failing the test because they can't read it, then that's a concern about their language and what it can mean for safety," said Izzy Huygen, Alberta representative for the Christian Labour Association of Canada.
When more new workers arrived from Portugal in June, Jennings reacted by emailing Saipem several resumes of qualified Canadian journeymen looking for work.
A human resources manager emailed back, saying, "We are not looking for ironworkers as of now." Then, in July, another crew from Poland showed up, according to several sources.
"Those ironworkers are still on site. They should have been turned around sent back home and replaced with Canadians," said Jennings.

 

[GLG]

Qualified Canadians available

Jason Mitchell's resume was one of those Jennings submitted. He said Saipem actually offered him work at the time. He quit his other job as a result, but has heard nothing since.
"I was told I was hired and good to go… I never heard any more. Now I am unemployed," said Mitchell.

As a test, Demosten recently posted a fake job ad on the web, mirroring Saipem's requirements, to show how many Canadians could have been hired.
His inbox was flooded with 115 applications — most from qualified people — within 14 hours.
One was followed by another email from the applicant's wife, pleading, "Please tell me if he is being considered."
"I felt real bad when I saw that," said Demosten. "More than likely he's sitting at home not working, while there is a foreign worker working."
The federal government rejected several Saipen applications to bring in foreign workers over the last year, because it didn't believe the company couldn't find Canadians for the jobs.
"Employment and Social Development Canada has refused this employer's last nine Labour Market Opinions because the employer was unable to demonstrate that a labour shortage existed or that the employer had made sufficient efforts to hire Canadians," said spokesperson Nick Koolsbergen.
Company gets around gov't refusals

Saipem found other avenues, however. It said some of its current workers came in under a little-known visa option called an "intra company transfer."
The union said the rest came through a pilot project allowing specific trades work in Alberta without federal approval. That program has just been cancelled.
Citizenship and Immigration responded to Go Public's story by indicating the province is responsible for safety and worker qualifications.
Alberta's minister of jobs, skills, training and labour said cases like this need investigation but foreign workers are still needed in the oilsands.
"We shouldn't penalize a whole industry, a whole economy, a whole region because there are some unfortunate circumstances. What we need to do is to get better at investigating those complaints and providing remedy to them," said Kyle Fawcett.
When CBC News asked the federal minister responsible if visas may be revoked in this case and he indicated it's possible.
"We've done it… We have sent people home when their presence here as temporary foreign workers was based on misrepresentation," said Immigration Minister Chris Alexander.

"We are saying to all employers you will only have access to this program if there's not a qualified Canadian to do the job."
The union said, because of a grievance it filed, the latest crew of new arrivals was pared back from 70 to 20 workers.
"These are widespread concerns," said Nuygen from CLAC. "Safety is definitely one of the top two issues. The other is temporary foreign workers getting jobs ahead of Canadians."
Demosten said foreign workers are still being promoted, however, to higher paying, non-union foreman jobs over him and other certified Canadians.
"People who don't speak English are our bosses. They are telling us what to do and they don't have any idea what to do."
As a result of Go Public's story, the Alberta Federation of Labour is asking the federal auditor general to investigate the use of foreign workers by Saipem at the Husky Sunrise site.

 

[GLG]

Well written Walleyes.

I don't agree.... seems like a rant without facts. Time for walleyes to move forward.

There comes a point with everything and anything - where the past simply has to be the past and time to move on.

You seem to grasp the concept of moving forward so I suspect you can understand the problem

 

[walleyes]

Put up all the bull **** you want doesn't take away from the fact you personally are a hypocrite..

Nothing worse than that.

Ignorant, Foolish, Hypocrite.

 

[triplenickel]

Replace your vehicle when it is due with one that uses less fuel. Over the life of the asset you will have a pay back within 3 to 5 years. Yes a new vehicle takes energy to produce but things have changed. Look at Ford and their commitment to reducing GHG.





This is exactly what it takes to reduce our personal co2 levels. Well done. You are not alone as most of my friends are doing the same thing. I guess we could call that a personal Cap & Trade. Sadly my beef consumption is not zero but I'm working on it.


I don't use Gas any more I gave that up on the last house move. The reason I asked you was this bit from the BC gov website.

[h=3]Which companies have the largest emissions in British Columbia?[/h]The three companies with the largest emissions in 2013 (excluding wood biomass) were:

• Spectra Energy Transmission: 4.7 Mt CO2e
• Teck Coal: 1.5 MT CO2e
• Lafarge Canada: 0.9 Mt CO2e

[h=3]What facilities have the largest emissions in British Columbia?[/h]The individual facilities with the largest emissions in 2013 (excluding wood biomass) were:

• Fort Nelson Gas Plant - Spectra Energy Transmission: 1.5 Mt CO2e
• Transmission Mainline – Spectra Energy Transmission: 0.93 Mt CO2e
• Pine River Gas Plant – Spectra Energy Transmission: 0.83 Mt CO2e

[h=3]What are the reported emissions for the different industry sectors?[/h]Reported emissions for the different industry sectors are as follows (rounded to the nearest 1,000 tCO2e):

SECTOR	2012 (tCO2e)	2013 (tCO2e)	2013 (as %)	% Change from 2012
Oil and Gas	10,084,000	10,291,000	50	2.1
Mining and Smelting	3,612,000	3,349,000	16	-7.3
Cement and Lime	1,647,000	1,904,000	9	15.6
Forest Products	1,748,000	1,648,000	8	-5.7
Electricity and Heat Generation	858,000	949,000	5	10.6
Manufacturing and Refineries	898,000	834,000	4	-7.1
Waste Treatment	401,000	393,000	2	-2.0
BC Emissions Total	19,248,000	19,369,000	n/a	0.6
Electricity Imports	1,158,000	1,342,000	6	15.9
Reported Total	20,406,000	20,711,000	10	1.5

<tbody>
</tbody>

It's clear where the CO2 is coming from and what needs to be done.



My clients were from Chicago so I'm only going to say that my income was at best 10% oil based. They are a commercial property management outfit with buildings across North America. Some buildings had oil companies renting space but they were few and far between. An example would be Sears Tower, no oil companies in there.




Your industry is not slackers? Prove it. Find your companies annual Sustainability Report and post the numbers.

LNG is very CO2 intensive unless it can be done using clean electricity. There is no getting around this fact. If 4 or 5 projects get the go ahead the CO2 emitted will be the same as adding the equivalent to another city the size of Vancouver to our province CO2 emissions. Your positive to the province is my negative to the province. How do we keep our CO2 levels down? We have commitments to others to reduce. If we go with your plan we have no hope or every one in BC will have to reduce to zero so that your industry can expand......

Its really no surprise that Spectra is at the top considering the volumes they handle and the millions of people they supply with necessities for their way of life all the way down to our neighbors in the south. Do you understand where they are in the chain?

No our industry is not slackers, we do things the best ways possible, just because reality doesn't match your personal ideals doesn't make an industry slackers.

I wonder if that chart showing emissions for various industries is fair, they all use the products of the O&G sectors do they take a hit for a percentage of the emissions from O&G or just their direct ones?

If we aren't going to supply a part of the worlds energy needs who would you rather?

If you think that putting another vehicle on the road to save maybe 10% in fuel (hybrids and electrics aside) is actually a net environmental benefit you're really stretching. A 3 year pay off on a $10k vehicle upgrade (this would be the minimum to trade a 3 year old truck for a new one) takes almost $300 a month in savings, not even close to realistic. Especially if we're talking diesels, they've gone backwards in mileage for the last decade.

Ford, ship the jobs overseas and outsource, not coming out of their plant but still going into their vehicles.

The energy sector is far from alone in the misuse of the TFW program.

I'm bored with this circle jerk, there's nothing that either of us is gonna say to change the others mind.

 

[GLG]

Put up all the bull **** you want doesn't take away from the fact you personally are a hypocrite..

Nothing worse than that.

Ignorant, Foolish, Hypocrite.

Your a real piece of work Walleys.....
I suspect others can see that....

 

[SpringVelocity]

I can't really say anything like most I worked oil sands for a time period.Never go back it was extremely hard work and hard on the family I don't care what anyone says. Try it for a while you will see what I mean. You try walking out in -40C everyday see how you do. Not to mention being subjected to things that will literally kill you.

In my field of my colleagues work with engineering on these projects. It pays extremely well. With many employers wanting to make peanuts and outsourcing technical help.

I guess being how I spent a great deal of time designing/testing and trying to develop solar powered products you hit this brick wall. The brick wall is our government stonewalls alternative energy programs where it can. It blocks SRED credits from R and D in all universities/colleges and small businesses unless it serves some self int interest within the large corporations.

I am not saying you guys are wrong to say no to all these developments. I am just saying we are all just as guilty. We elect the conservatives or at least get them in without a large opposition party because on one wants to vote. These same peopl don't vote and then cry every year .

And then we cruise around on here saying no to oil when we no damn well we have all these huge trucks, large boats etc. Its a great discussion but you need to understand that until there is an alternative or our population gets smaller these projects are going to continue to keep going.

The other thing you must understand the wages for skilled guys in say engineering is on the decline on mainland and the island, so guys are looking elsewhere where they can... That's a balance how do you say no to someone trying to do better for there families. What is the alternative?

The root cause of this discussion is not the vehicles you drive etc. There is one thing in past 20 years that people fail to realize. We forgot that we have a workforce in Canada. The consumers and large corporations have been lying to you all. The latest trend now is that China is too expensive and there is major outsourcing moving to India. What a stupid thing to do lets make the largest populations in world totally energy dependent. Think if it when you pick up those hooks and lures a lot of it comes offshore. Even your food.

We add to the problem, and as consumers/investors we can have influence on these developments. Just give you that to think about...carry on...

 

[GLG]

Its really no surprise that Spectra is at the top considering the volumes they handle and the millions of people they supply with necessities for their way of life all the way down to our neighbors in the south. Do you understand where they are in the chain?

Yes I'm aware of this Company and its place in the industry. They have a chance for effective change in the industry. I support them with supplying Nat Gas to North America to replace coal and oil. It's the LNG part that I don't support in the way they want to do it. Renewable energy to compress it. Stop emitting fugitive Nat Gas and I'll be behind them 100%

No our industry is not slackers, we do things the best ways possible, just because reality doesn't match your personal ideals doesn't make an industry slackers.

Prove it by posting the numbers

I wonder if that chart showing emissions for various industries is fair, they all use the products of the O&G sectors do they take a hit for a percentage of the emissions from O&G or just their direct ones?

My understanding is the amounts are separated out so as to not favor anyone.
This was done at the international level for GHG accounting methods

If we aren't going to supply a part of the worlds energy needs who would you rather?

Let them figure that out. We need to get our on house in order. Can Canada supply the world? That's up to your industry but we need to keep our levels below our commitments to that same world. Future generations are counting on us.

If you think that putting another vehicle on the road to save maybe 10% in fuel (hybrids and electrics aside) is actually a net environmental benefit you're really stretching. A 3 year pay off on a $10k vehicle upgrade (this would be the minimum to trade a 3 year old truck for a new one) takes almost $300 a month in savings, not even close to realistic. Especially if we're talking diesels, they've gone backwards in mileage for the last decade.

I'm confident that vehicles will work out in the end as new standards are on the correct track to lower emissions. No it makes no sense to replace a three year old truck unless you have the need or want to get something better. Average time that people keep their vehicle is 8 years. New regulations on cars and trucks are kicking in and consumption is going down as it should.

Ford, ship the jobs overseas and outsource, not coming out of their plant but still going into their vehicles.

Huh.... Reread that post as it say's Ford is decreased tail pipe by 16%

The energy sector is far from alone in the misuse of the TFW program.

I hear you there and agree 100%
Banking and food industry to name a few.
There is a lot to be said about corporate governance today.

there's nothing that either of us is gonna say to change the others mind.

Not so.... I do read your post and I do understand your point of view.
You gained some respect from me with your personal quest to lower your GHG.
I just can't sit here and watch as we go down a path with LNG when it is so destructive.
Nat Gas is great to help us get to zero emissions but not LNG in its proposed form.

 

[agentaqua]

Thank you SpringVelocity for your last post. Also thanks to 3x5, and GLG. Walleyes - I don't know why you feel you are getting called a hypocrite.

Personally, it really doesn't matter to me where people get their employment - if that is from the tar-sands or not. I don't understand why you are so defensive about this Walleyes.

What matters is the very serious issue over climate change and CO2 levels.

I personally wouldn't be proud of being ignorant about this - nor being ignorant about how science works.

Admittedly, there is only so much any 1 person can do to address this - but it starts with admitting there is a problem - and from there - doing what you can.

I am enjoying this conversation between 3x5, GLG and SpringVelocity. lots of nuggets in here.

 

[SpringVelocity]

Thanks agentaqua I guess I look at the problem of climate change is being the consumers themselves. Canada will obviously try to fulfill that demand as China gets power hungry. When I was there a Chinese factory I visited mentioned there are 6-10 factories coming online each day. Think of that number. A lot of cities have rolling brownouts as the factories need power, and its a huge problem. So they actually burn coal in a lot of power plants to get the power they need. That's where the smog comes in comes in. The company I spoke to mentioned they cannot keep up with our appetite for consuming. He mentioned a 600% increase in capacity alone at his facility that is crazy.

In our case we need to get a control to make our stuff here and question where we buy our food/goods. For example in BC there are so much food grown here, but we all ( I know I do sometimes) go to costco and all these big stores for all this cheap stuff.

And that harms the environment and puts demand on the resources. We plastic wrap everything with bags/packaging made in China. We ship goods from china with freighter that use large amounts of fuel. The reason we are being pushed is we did it through the way we spend and demand cheap goods ( not anyone else). We need a new phone every month or new computer, tv etc.

Its really a game, and unfortunately the way we buy really screws us in the end. Until you change that mentality it will get worse. Buy stuff made here and try to buy your food locally that is good start if you want to change anything. We need to produce things locally. Do you need a new phone or computer every three months? These things come overseas and they strain our resources...Just something too think of.

Not to mention paying for own fuel from our own resource that shoudl be half the price for all of us...well that's another thread.

Just trying to give you another perceptive...

 

[agentaqua]

Couldn't agree more with your post SpringVelocity.

Superimpose what your perspectives, experiences and insights are against the fact that the Harper Regime is secretly negotiating more so-called "free" trade deals that demolish our abilities to do what you suggest - chipping away at our abilities to govern ourselves. The only thing that is "free" about these deals is the corruption and the BS. Actually PR firms and script writers get paid quite a bit of money to hand out the BS - so that even costs.

 

[agentaqua]

https://www.knowledge.ca/program/tipping-points

In this six-part series, BC-based journalist and adventurer Bernice Notenboom heads to areas of the planet where climate systems may be nearing a tipping point. Bernice joins leading environmental scientists in the field as they explore the elements destabilizing our climate systems, and sees how changes in a remote area can – and do – dramatically impact other continents thousands of miles away, including North America. While there are no simple solutions, the series attempts to answer the pressing question: what is our timeline to change?

 

[agentaqua]

http://www.theguardian.com/environm...-polar-ice-caps-melting-at-unprecedented-rate
New satellite maps show polar ice caps melting at 'unprecedented rate'
Scientists reveal Greenland and Antarctica losing 500 cubic kms of ice annually, reports Climate News Network

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Tim Radford for the Climate Network, part of the Guardian Environment Network
theguardian.com, Monday 1 September 2014 12.34 BST
New elevation models of Antarctica and Greenland by ESA’s CryoSat satellite New elevation models of Antarctica (right) that incorporates 61 million measurements and new elevation model of Greenland (left) that incorporates 7.5 million measurements from ESA’s CryoSat satellite collected throughout 2012.
New elevation models of Antarctica (right) incorporates 61 million measurements and Greenland 7.5 million measurements from ESA’s CryoSat satellite collected throughout 2012. Photograph: ESA
German researchers have established the height of the Greenland and Antarctic ice caps with greater precision than ever before. The new maps they have produced show that the ice is melting at an unprecedented rate.

The maps, produced with a satellite-mounted instrument, have elevation accuracies to within a few metres. Since Greenland’s ice cap is more than 2,000 metres thick on average, and the Antarctic bedrock supports 61% of the planet’s fresh water, this means that scientists can make more accurate assessments of annual melting.

Dr Veit Helm and other glaciologists at the Alfred Wegener Institute’s Helmholtz Centre for Polar and Marine Research in Bremerhaven, Germany, report in the journal The Cryosphere that, between them, the two ice sheets are now losing ice at the unprecedented rate of 500 cubic kilometres a year.

The measurements used to make the maps were taken by an instrument aboard the European Space Agency’s orbiting satellite CryoSat-2. The satellite gets closer to the poles − to 88° latitude − than any previous mission and traverses almost 16m sq km of ice, adding an area of ice the size of Spain to the big picture of change and loss in the frozen world.

CryoSat-2’s radar altimeter transmitted 7.5m measurements of Greenland and 61m of Antarctica during 2012, enabling glaciologists to work with a set of consistent measurements from a single instrument.

Over a three-year period, the researchers collected 200m measurements in Antarctica and more than 14m in Greenland. They were able to study how the ice sheets changed by comparing the data with measurements made by Nasa’s IceSat mission.

Greenland’s volume of ice is being reduced at the rate of 375 cubic km a year. In Antarctica, the picture is more complex as the West Antarctic ice sheet is losing ice rapidly, but is growing in volume in East Antarctica.

Overall, the southern continent − 98% of which is covered with ice and snow − is losing 125 cubic km a year. These are the highest rates observed since researchers started making satellite observations 20 years ago.

“Since 2009, the volume loss in Greenland has increased by a factor of about two, and the West Antarctic ice sheet by a factor of three,” said Angelika Humbert, one of the report’s authors.

 

[OldBlackDog]

Judith Curry wrote “I reserve the word “deniers” for people that are explicitly associated with advocacy groups that are politicizing this issue…”

I reserve the word “deniers” for people that explicitly reject the history of Jewish extermination in wartime Germany.

When I see anyone legitimize the term “denier” in the context of this debate, an alarm bell goes off – “this is not a serious person”.

To do so is to commit an unforgivable devaluation of the historical relevance of the word “denier. It’s a rhetorical tactic unworthy of anyone who wants their scientific credibility to remain above reproach.

When the word “denier” first crawled out of the political slime, I fully expected those in science and media alike to reject it, vocally and without qualification.

Instead, it has become mainstream.

Small wonder that a great percentage of ordinary observers such as I begin to question that we haven’t been fed one big, fat lie after all. For the people propagating it have seemingly lost all sense of historical proportion.

Not to mention, curious double standard.

Outrageous buffoons like Al Gore zoom about the planet in private jets in the name of your “science”. The WWF travel agency zooms multi-millionaires around the world in private chartered jets in the name of your “science”.

When those who support the AGW position fail to categorically reject the “Al Gores” as spokespersons, fail to categorically reject activist scams, fail to categorically reject the use of unacceptable smears ….then, and only then, will you be able to hope for a restoration of confidence in what you do. You have a long road ahead.

You may know a lot about science. You understand precious little about public perception.

 

[Rum Buddies]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem